Race engine options

[jacobyte]

Does the 3 litre V6 have scope for boring out / stroking? Any experieces?

We're looking at options for a race car in 2008, and the Noble looks like an interesting possible alternative the the usual M3/GT3 soup.

[Adrian W]

Is 600bhp, 500+lbs of torque and around 1000kilos good enough, Big budget season though.

[Biggriff]

I was thinking about a nice 500bhp toy and wondered what you had to do to get it up to that level from a standard 3R?

[obes]

money mate, and LOTS of it !
after all, the 3.0 is already pretty much a bored out 2.5.
There's quite a school of folks that would rather tune the 2.5 as it's got a much nicer squarer action. Of course as it's technically discontinued, you need to import all the bits

The other problem will always be from the inherent problems of the transverse layout. Noble spent a ton of time and money discovering that to race, you really need to spin the lump....

[alex s]

Biggriff said:

I was thinking about a nice 500bhp toy and wondered what you had to do to get it up to that level from a standard 3R?

£££££££££££'s

[jacobyte]

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class, but the engine size is up to 3.6 turbocharged or 6.1 N/A.

600 horsies would be more reliable from 3.6 than 3.0, and we'd have more grunt as well.

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

alex s said:

Biggriff said:

I was thinking about a nice 500bhp toy and wondered what you had to do to get it up to that level from a standard 3R?

£££££££££££'s

Yup, if you want it properly sorted and going to run right for longer than a standard engine about £20k (once the exhaust, intercooler, etc etc costs are added). That is the fitted cost however.

[Biggriff]

I have the exhaust, intercooler and the cost is ok. I want to build a monster car so I am prepared to accept the "How fast do you want to go = How much money have you got"? scenario.

I want something that is so fast that everything else is second place, otherwise I am going to keep chasing that elusive 'perfect car'. The Noble is pretty good but needs a bit more motivation generation if i'm honest.

I started my shopping list, but I am keen to understand where to get uprated cams, valves etc (which seem key). I have a company that builds race engines (and have been involved with Audi touring cars) who will do the necessary, but I don't want to go down blind alleys. I trust them to do a good job (as they have never let me down yet).

What turbo's are you running. I was looking at T28RS, but the race engineers say they will go variable vane out of preference to eliminate lag.

The car will be fitted with a new ECU with adjustable T/C as an option as the MBE system seems to have limitations. I have researched MoteC and AEM which seem a popular choice for Nobles.

Richard

[Seasider]

jacobyte said:

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class,

Get ThatPhilBrettGuy as ballast

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

I seem to remember the list was :-

New con-rods, pistons and rings at 8.0:1 CR (with the head mods - std is
8.8:1 CR)
New VP2 big end bearings
New main bearings
Head work on chambers and throats
New cam profiles and new timing
New valve springs
ARP Head Stud kit
Colder spark plugs
New fuel pressure regulator
Lightened flywheel
Balanced crank
New (latest spec AP) clutch and cover with sprung centre and higher
torque capacity

I've got T25RS's. The Garrett people said they're good for over 300bhp in our application so anything bigger just seemed to add lag with no gain.

I swapped out the block and crank for new ones as my old ones were shot (after only 19K miles, and I don't do track days....makes you think about the quality of some of the older engines fitted).

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

Seasider said:

jacobyte said:

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class,

Get ThatPhilBrettGuy as ballast

350kg? Jamie surely

[jacobyte]

Seasider said:

jacobyte said:

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class,

Get ThatPhilBrettGuy as ballast

That would also double up as a handy drinks holder and sound deadening!

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

jacobyte said:

Seasider said:

jacobyte said:

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class,

Get ThatPhilBrettGuy as ballast

That would also double up as a handy drinks holder and sound deadening!

Actually I'm rubbish at holding drinks in cars, as my dry cleaners know all too well. The amount of sound I make is directly connected to the type of meal I last had, as my girlfriend knows all too well!

[Biggriff]

You are star Phil (good memory).

T25RS were on the list as T28's could be a bit laggy and that's something i am keen to avoid.

Did the bits all come through Roush or JNM?

[Podie]

ThatPhilBrettGuy said:

jacobyte said:

Seasider said:

jacobyte said:

Sadly the minimum weight is 1350Kg for this class,

Get ThatPhilBrettGuy as ballast

That would also double up as a handy drinks holder and sound deadening!

Actually I'm rubbish at holding drinks in cars, as my dry cleaners know all too well. The amount of sound I make is directly connected to the type of meal I last had, as my girlfriend knows all too well!

[Biggriff]

Empty vessels make the most noise

[ThatPhilBrettGuy]

Biggriff said:

You are star Phil (good memory).

T25RS were on the list as T28's could be a bit laggy and that's something i am keen to avoid.

Did the bits all come through Roush or JNM?

All from Roush (well Mountune + Roush I suppose). Don't forget to add the cost of an engine oil cooler as the 3R doesn't have one.

There's probably less lag now than when it was standard. Efficient too as it produces 400bhp on 0.5 bar boost (I have a high / low boost switch). Goes quite well as you can imagine. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEwZLAJ16rU

[obes]

Biggriff said:

I have the exhaust, intercooler and the cost is ok. I want to build a monster car so I am prepared to accept the "How fast do you want to go = How much money have you got"? scenario.

Roush have built the real monsters that are out there at the moment.
If I had the money (and could be arsed!) I would investigate something really different. Mainly spinning the engine. Maybe even sorting a small(ish) high revving V8.

Biggriff said:

I want something that is so fast that everything else is second place,

Forget the power then, at least to start with. Throw some cash at getting the weight out of it. I've read some of your posts about carbon fibre stuff with great interest as I'm a big fan . There's lots of stuff in the Noble that could go on a diet !

Adrian/Phil/Ash have proved that with enough cash, you can build a noble that will outdrag carrera GT's / Lambo LP640's. Trouble is, no M12/400 has ever had and real hard race work and enjoyed any real success (cue a flaming from dr Cundy!). Sounds like you might need the old model Noble (the ultima!)

Biggriff said:

I started my shopping list, but I am keen to understand where to get uprated cams, valves etc (which seem key). I have a company that builds race engines (and have been involved with Audi touring cars) who will do the necessary, but I don't want to go down blind alleys. I trust them to do a good job (as they have never let me down yet).

Roush or JNM are the boys mate. Everything is custom made AFAIK. There's nowhere with that kind of thing "on the shelf" as far as I know.

Biggriff said:

What turbo's are you running. I was looking at T28RS, but the race engineers say they will go variable vane out of preference to eliminate lag.

The car will be fitted with a new ECU with adjustable T/C as an option as the MBE system seems to have limitations. I have researched MoteC and AEM which seem a popular choice for Nobles.

The guy who rebuilt mine (John Edwards from JEMS) was big on trying to get me over onto MoteC I know he uses it alot in the cosworth race builds/rebuilds that he does.
After he dismantled the engine and had a good test and calculate, he was of the opinion of dropping the turbo's for racing, preferring the option of getting power from internal reworking and higher revving. I put the car back to just being "slightly tuned" in the end and went after speed kicks elswhere !!!

PM me if you want any other info. I've still got some stuff from when I was researching similar things

[Biggriff]

Thanks very much for the info and honesty. I have used Roush before and was impressed by their professionalism.

I am currently working through the Noble carbon fibre wish list and will be showing how far we have got shortly. These things take a stupidly long amount of time and we are concentrating on another market sector at the moment as the volumes will be bigger and that allows me to have money to play with the things I enjoy.

The carbon stuff only started as a hobby but seems to have mushroomed somewhat.

Getting weight out is a bit of a joke as I weigh 20 stone!!! so the best thing I can do is go on a diet.

Richard

[jacobyte]

Biggriff said:

I weigh 20 stone!!!

That'll bring the tally up to the required 1350!