Question for BIB - Taking witness statements
Discussion
A friend of mine was recently arrested for affray, locked up overnight, interviewed and is now waiting for the police to decide whether to press charges.
He has two witnesses (friends) who witnessed the incident and they have contacted the police in order to give a statement and be interviewed if necessary. The Police however have not called them back or made any attempt to take statements from them. The content of these statements will make charges being made unlikely.
Whilst witnesses could be called at trial, what obligation is there on the Police to investigate the matter fully?
He has two witnesses (friends) who witnessed the incident and they have contacted the police in order to give a statement and be interviewed if necessary. The Police however have not called them back or made any attempt to take statements from them. The content of these statements will make charges being made unlikely.
Whilst witnesses could be called at trial, what obligation is there on the Police to investigate the matter fully?
A random bloke starts acting aggressively towards my mate's friends on a night out for no apparent reason. When my mate arrives the guy starts pushing him, following him for some distance trying to start a fight, he then squares up to my mate, who has two injured hands and unable to push him away so headbutts him, breaking his nose and making a right mess of his face. Random bloke them punches my mate (breaking his nose) and I assume BiB are called at this point and they are both arrested.
Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
I'm always a bit circumspect about witnesses who are friends/relations of an alleged offender, and you have to ask how truthful they're being (in general terms, not specifically related to this incident). Even when the declaration at the top of the statemenet form is explained to them some people will go on to tell blatant lies about what's happened (again in general terms, not here).
The police are obliged to investigate matters fully, and to disclose ALL material available, whether it supports a prosecution case or not (all by CPIA which deals with disclosure).
If the Police won't take statements from your fiend's friends, consider whether they will be useful defence witnesses in any Court proceedings, and make sure your friend's solicitor is aware of them.
I can't honestly see why they shouldn't give statements now, if it means the case is not progressed with, then so be it. If they go to COurt and say "We tried to give a statement at the time, but were told to naff off", then BiB /CPS may well be left with egg on their face(s).
If you can't get the Police to listen, make sure all attempts to provide statements are documented and recorded (who you spoke to, what was said etc etc).
The police are obliged to investigate matters fully, and to disclose ALL material available, whether it supports a prosecution case or not (all by CPIA which deals with disclosure).
If the Police won't take statements from your fiend's friends, consider whether they will be useful defence witnesses in any Court proceedings, and make sure your friend's solicitor is aware of them.
I can't honestly see why they shouldn't give statements now, if it means the case is not progressed with, then so be it. If they go to COurt and say "We tried to give a statement at the time, but were told to naff off", then BiB /CPS may well be left with egg on their face(s).
If you can't get the Police to listen, make sure all attempts to provide statements are documented and recorded (who you spoke to, what was said etc etc).
Muncher said:
A random bloke starts acting aggressively towards my mate's friends on a night out for no apparent reason. When my mate arrives the guy starts pushing him, following him for some distance trying to start a fight, he then squares up to my mate, who has two injured hands and unable to push him away so headbutts him, breaking his nose and making a right mess of his face. Random bloke them punches my mate (breaking his nose) and I assume BiB are called at this point and they are both arrested.
Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
Whilst the law says you can use reasonsable but minimal force to defend yourself it *could* be argued that your mate acted over the top and could have/should have walked away. Your mate would have to have a very good reason to justify his use of force. The way I see it all the friends are going to say is that there was an aggressive male who started on your mate which will be of limited evidential value as no doubt your mate has already told the BiB the story.Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
At the very least the BiB can get verbal accounts of the incident and add this to the file for a decision. The OP has some very valid points.
HTH
Muncher said:
A random bloke starts acting aggressively towards my mate's friends on a night out for no apparent reason. When my mate arrives the guy starts pushing him, following him for some distance trying to start a fight, he then squares up to my mate, who has two injured hands and unable to push him away so headbutts him, breaking his nose and making a right mess of his face. Random bloke them punches my mate (breaking his nose) and I assume BiB are called at this point and they are both arrested.
Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
Sounds like an affray to me, sorry. A headbutt could be justified as a pre-emptive strike if your friend was in fear of immediate violence. It appears that the CCTV covers the build up to the headbutt and I suspect that it will show your friend getting annoyed with an idiot and having a pop. (I know I am making assumptions and judging your friend without the facts, just guessing.) Unfortunately for him, the part with the greatest chance of CCTV coverage was the headbutt.
If you need any case law check out R.v Bentos.
My own personal experience is that if they have witness statements that will result in a prosecution then they will dodge taking conflicting statements if possible that weaken the case.
They may eventually take a statement or two prior to the case reaching court to cover their ass but by leaving it a while it is easy for them to imply that you have all had a load of time to cook up a story together and your statements will be as worthless as a zimbabwe dollar.
They may eventually take a statement or two prior to the case reaching court to cover their ass but by leaving it a while it is easy for them to imply that you have all had a load of time to cook up a story together and your statements will be as worthless as a zimbabwe dollar.
My mate got a letter today (dated the day after the incident) saying the other person is being investigated for a s47 assault. Does this alter his chances of a charge/caution for affray? Certainly it would aid his chances of proving self defense but would it dictate the police dropping all charges involving him? He is going to be a teacher so really needs to avoid anything which may jeopardise his career prospects.
Muncher said:
My mate got a letter today (dated the day after the incident) saying the other person is being investigated for a s47 assault. Does this alter his chances of a charge/caution for affray? Certainly it would aid his chances of proving self defense but would it dictate the police dropping all charges involving him? He is going to be a teacher so really needs to avoid anything which may jeopardise his career prospects.
Quite possible for both parties to be charged.
vonhosen said:
Muncher said:
My mate got a letter today (dated the day after the incident) saying the other person is being investigated for a s47 assault. Does this alter his chances of a charge/caution for affray? Certainly it would aid his chances of proving self defense but would it dictate the police dropping all charges involving him? He is going to be a teacher so really needs to avoid anything which may jeopardise his career prospects.
Quite possible for both parties to be charged.Muncher said:
When my mate arrives the guy starts pushing him, following him for some distance trying to start a fight, he then squares up to my mate, who has two injured hands and unable to push him away so headbutts him, breaking his nose and making a right mess of his face....He is going to be a teacher so really needs to avoid anything which may jeopardise his career prospects.
I suppose it's easy to criticise with hindsight, but given that he had injured hands (and was therefore unable to properly defend himself even by pushing someone away), why did he headbutt the guy first? He could have ended up seriously injured. Sounds like the guy was looking for a fight, why give him one that you can't defend? Black Knight syndrome?Also, if he's going to be a (state school) teacher, at least a secondary level, he needs more self control. There are some scumbag kids around, and one such incident could be career ending, regardless of who starts it.
Braver that I would have been anyway. Any time I've encountered this sort of thing, I've just walked away and (possibly) lost face.
John
Muncher said:
My mate got a letter today (dated the day after the incident) saying the other person is being investigated for a s47 assault. Does this alter his chances of a charge/caution for affray? Certainly it would aid his chances of proving self defense but would it dictate the police dropping all charges involving him? He is going to be a teacher so really needs to avoid anything which may jeopardise his career prospects.
There are issues with S47 Assault (which is ABH) and Affray. I'm assuming you're talking about charges resulting out of the same incident?The CPS apply certain rules when dealing with charges relating to an incident where a public order offence was committed (in this case the Affray - S3 Public Order Act) and an assault. In simple terms, the assault takes primacy. So a person would be charged with an assault (as it has a victim - who can be compensated) and NOT an affray which resulted out of the same incident, not withstanding that the points to prove for an affray are made out.
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