Ambulance runnning reds without siren going
Discussion
This morning I almost witnessed a head-on between an ambulance and a MINI. The MINI was turning right out of a junction onto a main road, on green lights, and the ambulance was going straight on, but because of the queue of traffic at the lights it went over to the wrong side of the lights to go through on red.
It had it's lights going, but no siren, which is what I think caught out the MINI. It certainly made me jump sitting stationary in the queue when it came past.
Isn't this a bit dodgy? Why would you drive through reds on the wrong side at a busy junction with no siren going?
It had it's lights going, but no siren, which is what I think caught out the MINI. It certainly made me jump sitting stationary in the queue when it came past.
Isn't this a bit dodgy? Why would you drive through reds on the wrong side at a busy junction with no siren going?
He is legally allowed to do it as the siren is at their discretion; however, he should of had his siren. They can even jump lights with no siren or lights on.
Maybe he was a little distracted by the person in the back.
If it would have been an accident the ambulance driver would have been prosecuted for dangerous driving. They are warned that they are to obey the laws of the road, even on a red light run. Apart from the speed etc....
Maybe he was a little distracted by the person in the back.
If it would have been an accident the ambulance driver would have been prosecuted for dangerous driving. They are warned that they are to obey the laws of the road, even on a red light run. Apart from the speed etc....
Tend to keep sirens off for delicate patients with ,for example, unstable cardiac conditions as the extra anxiety/stress caused by the sirens can be enough to tip them over the edge - this is known as running on 'silent-red' and is a normal procedure but obviously you have to adapt to the fact that other motorists are not going to hear the EV, approaching with more caution. You legally do not HAVE to have sirens on but should an RTC occur while on red, if the finger is pointed and you are not using all visible and audible warning devices your justification for not doing so needs to be pretty water-tight.
Edited by maddog993 on Wednesday 31st October 10:09
timskipper said:
This morning I almost witnessed a head-on between an ambulance and a MINI. The MINI was turning right out of a junction onto a main road, on green lights, and the ambulance was going straight on, but because of the queue of traffic at the lights it went over to the wrong side of the lights to go through on red.
How odd, there was an accident in Paignton a couple of months back that had exactly the same circumstances, MINI turned left at a large traffic light controlled crossroads, to find an ambulance hammering down the wrong side of the road and had a bit of a smash. Unfortunately the ambulance was carrying critically injured biker who later died (though he was picked up very quickly by another ambulance in the vicinity).Story in local rag
Mr2Mike said:
How odd, there was an accident in Paignton a couple of months back that had exactly the same circumstances, MINI turned left at a large traffic light controlled crossroads, to find an ambulance hammering down the wrong side of the road
Hammering down...from the article : "that the vehicle conveying the patient was using blue lights and sirens - and the vehicle was almost if not completely stationary when it collided with another vehicle."
stationary doesn't really sound like hammering to me...
Looks more the fault of that mini, he might have a green light but he still has to look where he's going.
timskipper said:
Why would you drive through reds on the wrong side at a busy junction with no siren going?
Most of us don't use the sirens if there's almost no traffic or during certain times, like late at night or early in the morning.But if it's a busy junction with a lot of traffic i wouldn't cross it without any noise, even with a critical ill patient in the back, especially since we will always be to blame if something might happen and where on the wrong side of the wrong or passing a red light.
Bing o said:
Is it not basic common sense to check that a junction is clear before proceeding through it to look for emergency vehicles or stolen cars?
It's actually a requirement. Green does not, of course, mean go. However, the ambulance driver was clearly at fault on this one. The fact it was on an emergency call is mitigation. Courts have, historically, been very lenient when it comes to ambulance accidents and the CPS might consider it a waste of time prosecuting. We had two lads killed when a fire appliance took them out at a junction in Rottingdean in the early 90s and the recommendation was NFA. From what I was told when I attended the scene the car stopped, presumably to allow precedance to the appliance, but then tried to beat it. Legally it would seem, the brigade chap was at fault. The group of emergency vehicle drivers most likely to be proseucted, at least when I was in a prosecutions department, was the the police.Medic-one said:
from the article : "that the vehicle conveying the patient was using blue lights and sirens - and the vehicle was almost if not completely stationary when it collided with another vehicle."
Well of course it was, the ambulance driver was hardly going to accelerate towards the car! He slammed his brakes on when the MINI came around the junction.I was queuing in traffic for the same junction when it happened, though could only see the ambulance at the time. The speed at impact was fortunately quite low, although plenty of damage done to the car.
Medic-one said:
Looks more the fault of that mini, he might have a green light but he still has to look where he's going.
I think not. This was a traffic light controlled crossroads:1) The MINI driver had a green light
2) Ambulance driver had a red light (if he was on the correct side of the road)
3) Ambulance driver was on the wrong side of the road.
4) The MINI driver was turning left, and hence could not see the ambulance driving on the wrong side of the road toward him until he completed the left turn, by which time the Ambulance had hit him. The actual collision took place about 10 meters from the actual junction.
There is absolutely no blame to be laid at the hands of the MINI driver (other than of piloting a Germanic pretender of a great British car).
Mr2Mike said:
I think not. This was a traffic light controlled crossroads:
1) The MINI driver had a green light
2) Ambulance driver had a red light (if he was on the correct side of the road)
3) Ambulance driver was on the wrong side of the road.
4) The MINI driver was turning left, and hence could not see the ambulance driving on the wrong side of the road toward him until he completed the left turn, by which time the Ambulance had hit him. The actual collision took place about 10 meters from the actual junction.
There is absolutely no blame to be laid at the hands of the MINI driver (other than of piloting a Germanic pretender of a great British car).
The mini driver is still suppost to look where's he's going, eventhough he has a green light.1) The MINI driver had a green light
2) Ambulance driver had a red light (if he was on the correct side of the road)
3) Ambulance driver was on the wrong side of the road.
4) The MINI driver was turning left, and hence could not see the ambulance driving on the wrong side of the road toward him until he completed the left turn, by which time the Ambulance had hit him. The actual collision took place about 10 meters from the actual junction.
There is absolutely no blame to be laid at the hands of the MINI driver (other than of piloting a Germanic pretender of a great British car).
So if there was no ambulance but a kid who quickly crossed the street when the mini turned left and the mini hit it it wasn't the mini's fault either ?
And apperently he wasn't paying much attention either, if i hear a siren i slow down and check all my mirrors and side streets to see where's it's coming from, and if i'm entering a junction and hear sirens i'll be extra carefull cos u know something is coming from either direction, so u don't just make ur turn without looking where to go...
And if the ambulance was stationary according to the arcticle it was the mini who drove into the ambulance (who stopped to check the junction was clear) and not vice versa.
Bit of Case Law for you here. Griffin v Merseyside Ambulance Service. Ambulance on Emergency call out, displaying blues & twos, approaches traffic light controlled junction at red. Slows down & proceeds through traffic light (at red) whereupon collides with Griffin, who had gone through their traffic light at green (you following this...........).
Eventual outcome was a 60/40% settlement in favour of the Ambulance Service, ie they recovered 60% of their losses, Griffin recovered 40%.
Terribly interesting job I have.......
Eventual outcome was a 60/40% settlement in favour of the Ambulance Service, ie they recovered 60% of their losses, Griffin recovered 40%.
Terribly interesting job I have.......
Whilst I would agree that drivers are supposed to look ahead, I too recently had a near miss with an ambulance whilst going along a busy artery of Southampton. I was crossing a rail bridge approaching a big set of traffic lights and the ambulance barged its way across 4 lanes hitting all the loud noise buttons ten feet before crossing.
It could have hit those buttons 4-10 seconds earlier and we would have had a much safer stop.
It could have hit those buttons 4-10 seconds earlier and we would have had a much safer stop.
Edited by tony13579 on Saturday 3rd November 14:44
My brother in law was sideswiped by an ambulance going through lights on red. He had all his family (5) in the car and there was a fair bit of mayhem. No really serious injuries fortunately. The ambulance had blues, but not twos on.
He never managed to get an admission of liability and to this day the insurance went 50/50.
Not a good outcome.
Bert
He never managed to get an admission of liability and to this day the insurance went 50/50.
Not a good outcome.
Bert
maddog993 said:
Tend to keep sirens off for delicate patients with ,for example, unstable cardiac conditions as the extra anxiety/stress caused by the sirens can be enough to tip them over the edge - this is known as running on 'silent-red' and is a normal procedure but obviously you have to adapt to the fact that other motorists are not going to hear the EV, approaching with more caution. You legally do not HAVE to have sirens on but should an RTC occur while on red, if the finger is pointed and you are not using all visible and audible warning devices your justification for not doing so needs to be pretty water-tight.
I've also heard that ambulances don't use sirens for heart patients because it can adversely affect them.Edited by maddog993 on Wednesday 31st October 10:09
It's easy to think that a green light means it's safe to go, but I always try to remember to check anyway. You can never be sure nobody's jumping the lights, even when there's a camera on every junction....
Right.
1. The old idea that using sirens might frighten cardiac patients has been proven rubbish. The fact they can't breathe and feel like they're about to die is far more pressing to them.
2. Emergency services have an exemption to use audible warnings at any time of day or night. My Trust (and I would imagine most, if not all others) has an 'all or nothing' policy, ie lights AND sirens or not at all. Anyone involved in an accident while only displayng lights would receive no support whatsoever from the Trust.
Personally, like most of my colleagues, I don't use sirens at night - but it's a risk I know I'm taking and I accept that.
3. The exemption for red lights is very clear. They are to be treated as a STOP AND GIVE WAY.
IMO the ambulance crew involved should have seen the Mini and stopped. Especially in daylight, the blue lights really aren't very visible, I can quite sympathise with the Mini driver for not seeing the ambulance coming.
1. The old idea that using sirens might frighten cardiac patients has been proven rubbish. The fact they can't breathe and feel like they're about to die is far more pressing to them.
2. Emergency services have an exemption to use audible warnings at any time of day or night. My Trust (and I would imagine most, if not all others) has an 'all or nothing' policy, ie lights AND sirens or not at all. Anyone involved in an accident while only displayng lights would receive no support whatsoever from the Trust.
Personally, like most of my colleagues, I don't use sirens at night - but it's a risk I know I'm taking and I accept that.
3. The exemption for red lights is very clear. They are to be treated as a STOP AND GIVE WAY.
IMO the ambulance crew involved should have seen the Mini and stopped. Especially in daylight, the blue lights really aren't very visible, I can quite sympathise with the Mini driver for not seeing the ambulance coming.
Edited by parapaul on Saturday 3rd November 05:34
I agree that Ambulances approaching junctions/lights/roundabouts without the siren can catch people out - why can't the driver pip the horn a few times to get people aware? The Police do this when answering a call on blues and don't want the sirens to scare the crims. The water pixies are even worse in my area for running all over the place without sirens and normally in a convoy of two (with the second 200 yards behind the first and people really being caught out by the suddend appearance of the second behemoth).
wasted years said:
The water pixies are even worse in my area for running all over the place without sirens and normally in a convoy of two (with the second 200 yards behind the first and people really being caught out by the suddend appearance of the second behemoth).
I had that experiance about 10 years ago! Oncoming fire engine on my side of the road forced me on the pavement, I came off the pavement to miss a lamp post only to meet the second. parapaul said:
Right.
1. The old idea that using sirens might frighten cardiac patients has been proven rubbish. The fact they can't breathe and feel like they're about to die is far more pressing to them.
2. Emergency services have an exemption to use audible warnings at any time of day or night. My Trust (and I would imagine most, if not all others) has an 'all or nothing' policy, ie lights AND sirens or not at all. Anyone involved in an accident while only displayng lights would receive no support whatsoever from the Trust.
Personally, like most of my colleagues, I don't use sirens at night - but it's a risk I know I'm taking and I accept that.
3. The exemption for red lights is very clear. They are to be treated as a STOP AND GIVE WAY.
IMO the ambulance crew involved should have seen the Mini and stopped. Especially in daylight, the blue lights really aren't very visible, I can quite sympathise with the Mini driver for not seeing the ambulance coming.
1) Paul,regarding specific 'delicate' cardiac conditions- although I'm not referring necessarily just to to MIs- while I agree generally the patient is possibly too concerned with their 'sense of impending doom' to be too bothered about the sirens(though the sirens may add to this sense of doom!)- I refer the honourable gentleman to http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0095-9006(196022)... and http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleUR... (though I would still make selective use of audible warning devices if I felt the traffic or particular road conditions specifically merited doing so, if not doing so would jeopardise safety.)1. The old idea that using sirens might frighten cardiac patients has been proven rubbish. The fact they can't breathe and feel like they're about to die is far more pressing to them.
2. Emergency services have an exemption to use audible warnings at any time of day or night. My Trust (and I would imagine most, if not all others) has an 'all or nothing' policy, ie lights AND sirens or not at all. Anyone involved in an accident while only displayng lights would receive no support whatsoever from the Trust.
Personally, like most of my colleagues, I don't use sirens at night - but it's a risk I know I'm taking and I accept that.
3. The exemption for red lights is very clear. They are to be treated as a STOP AND GIVE WAY.
IMO the ambulance crew involved should have seen the Mini and stopped. Especially in daylight, the blue lights really aren't very visible, I can quite sympathise with the Mini driver for not seeing the ambulance coming.
2) While I agree that in such circumstances our Trust like yours would be generally unsupportive, in YAS we've had at least two cases where ambulances running with blues but no noise that had bumps were cleared while claiming exemptions as the justification for running without sirens were deemed satisfactory and justifiable under the particular circumstances.
3)Agreed
Edited by maddog993 on Monday 17th December 23:10
Medic-one said:
Mr2Mike said:
4) The MINI driver was turning left, and hence could not see the ambulance driving on the wrong side of the road toward him until he completed the left turn, by which time the Ambulance had hit him. The actual collision took place about 10 meters from the actual junction.
The mini driver is still suppost to look where's he's going, eventhough he has a green light.Medic-one said:
So if there was no ambulance but a kid who quickly crossed the street when the mini turned left and the mini hit it it wasn't the mini's fault either ?
Who can say? This is purely hypothetical and rather irrelevant. The ambulance did not cross the road, it drove down it on the wrong side hence there was a higher closing speed between mini and ambulance. Had the hypothetical child been running down the wrong side of the road at 20-30mph ten the MINI driver would almost certainly have hit it.I'm not saying that emergency vehicles should not attempt to go through red lights, but common sense dictates this is an extremely risky manoeuvre and requires a great deal of caution and planning to perform with reasonable safety. The lives of other drivers are surely at least as valuable as the unfortunate person in the back of the ambulance.
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