Discussion
Hi all,
I have an oil leak coming from the back of the car,dripping from the bottom of the gear box, just where theres a bracket attached to it (seen from under rear bumper)...could it just be a simple case of tightening the bolts, or would i need this looked at very soon????
Cheers
Brett 86S3
(also how do i attach photos to my posts as i can send a pic???)
I have an oil leak coming from the back of the car,dripping from the bottom of the gear box, just where theres a bracket attached to it (seen from under rear bumper)...could it just be a simple case of tightening the bolts, or would i need this looked at very soon????
Cheers
Brett 86S3
(also how do i attach photos to my posts as i can send a pic???)
I would wipe it off and check that its the source. I've had a couple of oil leaks in the past and they all seem to drip from around that area after driving the car. I my case I've had a driveshaft seal go (very common) and a leak from the top of the turbo-sump pipe.
Steve
89 Turbo
www.unity1.co.uk/Lotus
Steve
89 Turbo
www.unity1.co.uk/Lotus
southenddc said:
Hi all,
I have an oil leak coming from the back of the car,dripping from the bottom of the gear box, just where theres a bracket attached to it (seen from under rear bumper)...could it just be a simple case of tightening the bolts, or would i need this looked at very soon????
Cheers
Brett 86S3
(also how do i attach photos to my posts as i can send a pic???)
Brett sorry to hear of your prob. I would do as suggested above first and then yes a piccy would be great, so people here can help determine your prob.
Find some free webspace somewhere, either from your own website if you have one, webshots or fotango to name a few. Upload your pics there. Usually step by step instructions are provided for you how to do it. Then copy the web address of the pic and paste it in your next message. Do remember to preview the image before you post so it works.
Cheers
Kylie
89Esp Turbo
Hi!
You have a S3 which means you got the Citroën/Maserati gearbox. This sounds VERY much like broken 'O'-ring on the speedo-angle drive (rear, left side of the gear-box). I had this problem on my S3. It's fastened with a bolt which can be reached through the silencer mounting bracket. Unscrew, withdraw, and the angle drive can simply be pulled out of its hole. There shold be a 'O'-ring attached in the notch in the plastic. If it is damaged or missing, well "voila", there's your problem. The fifth gear is flushing the gearbox oil in this direction so it will most surely leak if the 'O'-ring is faulty/missing.
You have a S3 which means you got the Citroën/Maserati gearbox. This sounds VERY much like broken 'O'-ring on the speedo-angle drive (rear, left side of the gear-box). I had this problem on my S3. It's fastened with a bolt which can be reached through the silencer mounting bracket. Unscrew, withdraw, and the angle drive can simply be pulled out of its hole. There shold be a 'O'-ring attached in the notch in the plastic. If it is damaged or missing, well "voila", there's your problem. The fifth gear is flushing the gearbox oil in this direction so it will most surely leak if the 'O'-ring is faulty/missing.
I get oil from the same place but very little and I am pretty sure it is the speedo (I can see oil around it), Not too concerned though because it is not much. If you really want to know where it is coming from; clean up the old oil and add some oil dye to the gearbox oil (available at most parts stores). Leave it a week or two and have someone shine a black light on it. You'll be able to see exactly where it is coming from then.
Hope this helps,
AZ88Turbo
P.S don't forget: if it is a pre V8 and it doesn't leak at least a little somewhere there may be somthing wrong
Kinda like a Harley.
Hope this helps,
AZ88Turbo
P.S don't forget: if it is a pre V8 and it doesn't leak at least a little somewhere there may be somthing wrong
Kinda like a Harley.southenddc said:
Hi all,
I have an oil leak coming from the back of the car,dripping from the bottom of the gear box, just where theres a bracket attached to it (seen from under rear bumper)...could it just be a simple case of tightening the bolts, or would i need this looked at very soon????
Cheers
Brett 86S3
(also how do i attach photos to my posts as i can send a pic???)
Brett,
Is the leak Motor Oil or Gear Lube? Gear Lube will have a strong 'Sulphur' smell.
Given the limited amount of information, if I had to further a guess, I'd say that you have a rear main seal going bad in the engine. The tranny isn't really prone to leaking at the spot you indicate, but a blown rear seal will. Oil will flow to this point, carried by the airflow under the car.
Check the rim of your flywheel with your finger (engine off) at the timing inspection port. It it comes out oily, then it's sure to be your rear seal. If it's not leaking too badly, you may have some time 'til it needs attention, but that's a gamble as once it starts leaking more, and it will, it can contaminate the clutch disk requiring it's replacement as well.
First thing though is to determine what type of oil it is. Use the smell test also, take a piece of blotter paper or paper towel and push it up between the engine and the bellhousing. If anything comes off on the paper, it's the rear seal. Cheap fix, but unpleasant as you must separate the engine/bellhousing, raise the engine off it's mounts enough to remove the pressure plate, clutch disc, flywheel and rear cover and pull the old seal off. Then you place the rear cover into an oven at 350° for 5 minutes. Working fast, remove the rear cover, place on a piece of wood (careful it's hot) and then press the seal into the opening. This is necessary as the rear seal is a negative fit and requires heating the rear cover so that it expands sufficiently to accept the seal. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim '85TE
cheers guys, ive had another crawl under the car today and its deffinately a gasket at the back end of the gearbox and underneath (its not running from anywhere higher). im going to try and get a photo so i can show you all.....how do i get the photo on to this page rather than on a webshots community? anyone know?
southenddc said:
cheers guys, ive had another crawl under the car today and its deffinately a gasket at the back end of the gearbox and underneath (its not running from anywhere higher). im going to try and get a photo so i can show you all.....how do i get the photo on to this page rather than on a webshots community? anyone know?
Brett,
So, you've definitely determined that it is gear lube you find dripping? Did you smell the Sulphur in it?
I don't want to rain on your parade, but I guess I don't share your confidence that you've isolated the cause. This is because there are only three gaskets on the entire gearbox - a Filler Plug Gasket (on top) and two output shaft gaskets (on either side). None of these are in the area of your leak, nor would fluid collect there if any of these gaskets were faulty and there is no gasket at the back end of the gearbox as you describe. I still think it most likely you're looking at a faulty rear crank seal. When mine went 'South', I too thought it was the tranny until I realized I was staring at Motor Oil and not Gear Lube. Hope I'm wrong, as I'm sure do you. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Wednesday 23 July 05:51
Hello again!
To start with we must conclude what gearbox we are talking about. In this case it's the Citroen/Maserati C35. There is actually a LOT more gaskets/seals that can leak than 3!
1) Seal (gasket eliminator) between clutch hosing and gerbox body. Not probable leak since these surfaces are machined to match each other perfectly.
2) Input shaft seal. Can sometimes be the cause for leak.
3) Output shaft seals (pretty common, but not probable in this case).
4) Filler plug on top of gearbox.
5) Level plug on side of box.
6) Blanking plug on side of box.
7) Drain plug under box.
8) Seal (gasket eliminator) between main box and 5:th gear extension.
9) Seal (not sure what type) around the big "lid" on top of the box.
10) 'O'-rings at the end of the gearbox-shaft going through the lid.
11) 'O'-ring around the speedo-angle drive. This has been leaking on my car.
12) Seal (gasket eliminator) around the back plate of the box. Now this is interesting, since the exhaust system is attached to it and there is a lot of temperature cycling in this area, could be a possible cause.
Again as "Lotusguy" says, try and determine whether it is transmission or motor oil. The transmission oil has a smell that is easy to recognise (it normally has a much sharper smell than motor oil).
If it is motor oil it does not at all necessarily need to be the rear gasket of the main bearing.
The biggest and most common oil-leak cause on the 910 motor is in the front of the cam-housings where they are attached to the motor. In this area oil under high pressure for lubrication of the camshafts passes. Since this area is sealed with gasket eliminator an because such tends to deteriorate with age this is pretty common. I've had a couple of old Esprits and they have all had oil leaks in this area. Check if you have oil on the front of the motor (where it normally flows down), under the motor and around the spark-plugs. I'm not kidding when I say that on my old S3 the spark-plugs bathed in oil to the limit possible after only 100km drive (and this vas oil only from this area, no leaking cam covers). You can imagine what it looked like on the underside...
Best Regards /Lasse
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 09:27
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 13:06
To start with we must conclude what gearbox we are talking about. In this case it's the Citroen/Maserati C35. There is actually a LOT more gaskets/seals that can leak than 3!
1) Seal (gasket eliminator) between clutch hosing and gerbox body. Not probable leak since these surfaces are machined to match each other perfectly.
2) Input shaft seal. Can sometimes be the cause for leak.
3) Output shaft seals (pretty common, but not probable in this case).
4) Filler plug on top of gearbox.
5) Level plug on side of box.
6) Blanking plug on side of box.
7) Drain plug under box.
8) Seal (gasket eliminator) between main box and 5:th gear extension.
9) Seal (not sure what type) around the big "lid" on top of the box.
10) 'O'-rings at the end of the gearbox-shaft going through the lid.
11) 'O'-ring around the speedo-angle drive. This has been leaking on my car.
12) Seal (gasket eliminator) around the back plate of the box. Now this is interesting, since the exhaust system is attached to it and there is a lot of temperature cycling in this area, could be a possible cause.
Again as "Lotusguy" says, try and determine whether it is transmission or motor oil. The transmission oil has a smell that is easy to recognise (it normally has a much sharper smell than motor oil).
If it is motor oil it does not at all necessarily need to be the rear gasket of the main bearing.
The biggest and most common oil-leak cause on the 910 motor is in the front of the cam-housings where they are attached to the motor. In this area oil under high pressure for lubrication of the camshafts passes. Since this area is sealed with gasket eliminator an because such tends to deteriorate with age this is pretty common. I've had a couple of old Esprits and they have all had oil leaks in this area. Check if you have oil on the front of the motor (where it normally flows down), under the motor and around the spark-plugs. I'm not kidding when I say that on my old S3 the spark-plugs bathed in oil to the limit possible after only 100km drive (and this vas oil only from this area, no leaking cam covers). You can imagine what it looked like on the underside...
Best Regards /Lasse
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 09:27
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 13:06
Lasse said:
Hello again!
To start with we must conclude what gearbox we are talking about. In this case it's the Citroen/Maserati C35. There is actually a LOT more gaskets/seals that can leak than 3!
1) Seal (gasket eliminator) between clutch hosing and gerbox body. Not probable leak since these surfaces are machined to match each other perfectly.
2) Input shaft seal. Can sometimes be the cause for leak.
3) Output shaft seals (pretty common, but not probable in this case).
4) Filler plug on top of gearbox.
5) Level plug on side of box.
6) Blanking plug on side of box.
7) Drain plug under box.
8) Seal (gasket eliminator) between main box and 5:th gear extension.
9) Seal (not sure what type) around the big "lid" on top of the box.
10) 'O'-rings at the end of the gearbox-shaft going through the lid.
11) 'O'-ring around the speedo-angle drive. This has been leaking on my car.
12) Seal (gasket eliminator) around the back plate of the box. Now this is interesting, since the exhaust system is attached to it and there is a lot of temperature cycling in this area, could be a possible cause.
Again as "Lotusguy" says, try and determine whether it is transmission or motor oil. The transmission oil has a smell that is easy to recognise (it normally has a much sharper smell than motor oil).
If it is motor oil it does not at all necessarily need to be the rear gasket of the main bearing.
The biggest and most common oil-leak cause on the 910 motor is in the front of the cam-housings where they are attached to the motor. In this area oil under high pressure for lubrication of the camshafts passes. Since this area is sealed with gasket eliminator an because such tends to deteriorate with age this is pretty common. I've had a couple of old Esprits and they have all had oil leaks in this area. Check if you have oil on the front of the motor (where it normally flows down), under the motor and around the spark-plugs. I'm not kidding when I say that on my old S3 the spark-plugs bathed in oil to the limit possible after only 100km drive (and this vas oil only from this area, no leaking cam covers). You can imagine what it looked like on the underside...
Best Regards /Lasse
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 09:27
>> Edited by Lasse on Wednesday 23 July 13:06
Lasse,
On the Citroen C-35 box, there are exactly 3 gaskets. The rest which you point out are indeed openings where fluid can leak, but as you also pointed out, these are sealed with Hylomar, Wellseal, 'O' rings, sealed bearings and sealing washers, not gaskets. The fact that Brett has stated that there is no fluid leaking "Higher up" on the box, tends to eliminate these as sources.
My main concern about Brett is that he has yet to state what type of fluid which is leaking - Motor Oil or Gear Lube.
A bad rear seal will mask itself as a transmission leak. Motor Oil will migrate to the exact spot which Brett initially reported and I have seen Mechanics misdiagnose it as a tranny leak.
Unlike the engine, the tranny is not pressurised and so will leak constantly, but most likely from the bottom. If the crossgate 'O' rings, Top cover, blanking plug, level plug, input shaft bearing or such were leaking, he'd have a pool of gear lube on the garage floor, which he didn't mention. Also, the 'oil' to which he refers would also be on the top and sides of the box, which he says is not the case. If it was the extension housing, this opening 'lives' above the fill line of the gear lube making it an unlikely possibility, at least for a sustained leak. It's interesting that he says the 'oil' is on the subframe bracket for the lower suspension links. To me, this means that the subframe bracket is 'catching' fluid which is migrating rearward via the undercar airflow. If it was the Cam tower, cam oil seal etc., oil would be very noticeable elsewhare also, but, Brett made no comment about this.
As I said, my first inclination is to suspect a bad rear main seal. My second is a leaky drain plug on the gearbox. If both of these are eliminated as possibilities, given the limited amount of information, and the unlikelyhood that other possible leaks would manifest themselves as an accumulation of 'oil' on the subframe bracket, my third choice would be a crack in the gearbox casing (very, very remote possibility). In any event, it will be interesting to learn the final outcome. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
>> Edited by lotusguy on Wednesday 23 July 14:23
>> Edited by lotusguy on Wednesday 23 July 14:26
OK, here is Dr.Hess' Sure Fire Way to Find Oil Leaks, from my Clip-n-Saves(R) page http://home.flash.net/~hess/Clip_n_Saves.htm
Oil Leaks
I have certainly traced down my fair share of oil leaks, between the English cars and the Harley's I have owned. The problem with finding oil leaks is that you can not just look at where the oil is and say "Ah-ha! There is the leak." On a moving vehicle, the oil will leak from somewhere, then depending on the air flow over that point, go up, down, sideways, stay there, who knows. Then it will leak down from everywhere after you stop. A leak at the back of the motor can be from the front, top, bottom, anywhere. So here is Dr. Hess' sure-fire way to trace down oil leaks.
1. Clean
2. Look for leak.
Sounds simple, right? Well it is, you just have to clean very well and look real close. Put the vehicle up in the air on ramps so you can (safely) crawl under it. To clean, start out with a can or two (depending on the size of your mess) of engine degreaser, such as Gunk, etc. Warm engines clean easier than cold, etc., but it works on cold motors as well. Maybe because I usually do this in Texas in the summer when "cold" is 105 degrees F. Anyway, spray it all over the motor and engine bay. Everywhere there is grease/oil/gunk. Take a brush of some sort to thick areas. Let it soak a while. Next, what I do is put some soap (dish washing soap, laundry detergent, throw in some hand cleaner, whatever I happen to have handy) in a bucket of hot water (about a gallon or so) and spray this on with my air compressor and the little liquids sprayer attachment. If you don't have an air compressor, you can try one of those car wash wands that you add soap to and hook on your garden hose. I blast off every piece of grime/oil I can find. Next, I get one of those car wash wands that you add soap to and hook on your garden hose and hit it again. Then switch over to plain water and a high pressure stream nozzle. Blast off everything. Now inspect. Look from the top. Crawl under with a drop light. Is there any grease left anywhere on your engine? If so, repeat until there is none. It should be squeaky clean. Let it dry.
Now lets find the leak. Start up the motor. Crawl under with your shop light (60-100 watt bulb), Look closely at everything and wait. The leak will likely just show to be a small moist spot (#include fat-girl_joke.h) at a gasket area. You may have to let it idle for a while to find the leak, but be patient. It could take a half hour or more to find a leak, even though you think the leak must be huge based on the size oil spot you leave and the crud everywhere.
Oil Leaks
I have certainly traced down my fair share of oil leaks, between the English cars and the Harley's I have owned. The problem with finding oil leaks is that you can not just look at where the oil is and say "Ah-ha! There is the leak." On a moving vehicle, the oil will leak from somewhere, then depending on the air flow over that point, go up, down, sideways, stay there, who knows. Then it will leak down from everywhere after you stop. A leak at the back of the motor can be from the front, top, bottom, anywhere. So here is Dr. Hess' sure-fire way to trace down oil leaks.
1. Clean
2. Look for leak.
Sounds simple, right? Well it is, you just have to clean very well and look real close. Put the vehicle up in the air on ramps so you can (safely) crawl under it. To clean, start out with a can or two (depending on the size of your mess) of engine degreaser, such as Gunk, etc. Warm engines clean easier than cold, etc., but it works on cold motors as well. Maybe because I usually do this in Texas in the summer when "cold" is 105 degrees F. Anyway, spray it all over the motor and engine bay. Everywhere there is grease/oil/gunk. Take a brush of some sort to thick areas. Let it soak a while. Next, what I do is put some soap (dish washing soap, laundry detergent, throw in some hand cleaner, whatever I happen to have handy) in a bucket of hot water (about a gallon or so) and spray this on with my air compressor and the little liquids sprayer attachment. If you don't have an air compressor, you can try one of those car wash wands that you add soap to and hook on your garden hose. I blast off every piece of grime/oil I can find. Next, I get one of those car wash wands that you add soap to and hook on your garden hose and hit it again. Then switch over to plain water and a high pressure stream nozzle. Blast off everything. Now inspect. Look from the top. Crawl under with a drop light. Is there any grease left anywhere on your engine? If so, repeat until there is none. It should be squeaky clean. Let it dry.
Now lets find the leak. Start up the motor. Crawl under with your shop light (60-100 watt bulb), Look closely at everything and wait. The leak will likely just show to be a small moist spot (#include fat-girl_joke.h) at a gasket area. You may have to let it idle for a while to find the leak, but be patient. It could take a half hour or more to find a leak, even though you think the leak must be huge based on the size oil spot you leave and the crud everywhere.
Wow, thanks for all the comments above....im totally in fear of my car now entering into paranoia...lol
the 'oil' doesnt smell of anything but oil...and ive cleaned the spot where the oil seems to be coming from and to me its from underneath as in i cant find anywhere else its travelling from. i have 4 photos of the leak here....check them out if u dont mind please..and let me know what u think.....bear in mind that overnight the stain ends up to be about the size of my fist...
cheers guys
http://community.webshots.com/user/southenddc
>> Edited by southenddc on Wednesday 23 July 18:09
the 'oil' doesnt smell of anything but oil...and ive cleaned the spot where the oil seems to be coming from and to me its from underneath as in i cant find anywhere else its travelling from. i have 4 photos of the leak here....check them out if u dont mind please..and let me know what u think.....bear in mind that overnight the stain ends up to be about the size of my fist...
cheers guys
http://community.webshots.com/user/southenddc
>> Edited by southenddc on Wednesday 23 July 18:09
southenddc said:
Wow, thanks for all the comments above....im totally in fear of my car now entering into paranoia...lol
the 'oil' doesnt smell of anything but oil...and ive cleaned the spot where the oil seems to be coming from and to me its from underneath as in i cant find anywhere else its travelling from. i have 4 photos of the leak here....check them out if u dont mind please..and let me know what u think.....bear in mind that overnight the stain ends up to be about the size of my fist...
cheers guys
http://community.webshots.com/user/southenddc
>> Edited by southenddc on Wednesday 23 July 18:09
Brett,
Stating that it doesn't smell like anything but oil is not too encouraging. That means it's almost certainly Motor Oil and not Gear Lube. Gear Lube will have a very strong Sulphur or 'rotten egg' smell, no mistaking it.
Remove your engine undertray and look for oil seepage from the front of the engine. Pay particular attention to the left side (w/ the exhaust manifold/head) and as Lasse suggests, rule out leaks from this side of the engine. A cosmetic mirror and light will help. Next, check the area around the crank pulley and front cover to eliminate the possibility that it's the front seal (better than the rear if it is, but not by much). Through the process of elimination, if all these check out, you're probably looking at a faulty rear main seal.
If doing the work yourself, plan on replacing the seal and possibly the clutch disc if it's become contaminated w/ oil. If having the repair performed by someone else, consider replacing the clutch, pilot and throwout bearings and turning/truing/balancing the flywheel (if the current clutch is 25k-30k+ miles old), or if contaminated, because you'll bear most of the labor costs associated with this anyway just to replace the seal, as opposed to paying for this labor once again in a few thousand miles or so when the clutch is 'due'.
The important thing is to isolate the source of the leak before driving the car anymore. If the clutch isn't yet contaminated, continuing to drive the car will make this more likely and up the repair bill considerably. Hope this helps. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
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