Speeding FPN. What are the rules?
Discussion
Just been stopped for the first time for speeding in a section of the M4 in Swansea that is restricted to 50 for about one mile. Usual thing, late at night and raining and didn't see him coming up behind me until he turned his lights on. My head was switched off and I was the last car in a group of three and so just going with the crowd - picked off like a shark picks off the slowest swimmer!
Anyway, he invites me into his car and gives me the speal. Tells me was I aware I was doing well above the speed limit and that if I want to court it could be much worse than £60 and 3 points. He went to great lengths to nail the point home I should take the FPN. His overstating of the benefits of the FPN got me wondering whether he would have problems enforcing a prosecution in court.
So I asked him whether he had recorded me with a camera, to which he replied the car wasn't fitted with one. So I asked him he could be sure I was doing a constant speed if he he was on his own and had no recording device. I mean, how could he, in only half a mile, acurately record my speed so it was admissable in court, whilst controlling his car?
At this point he raised his voice and told me it was obvious I wanted to go to court. I replied that I had a right to know what my rights were. This went on for a few minutes to which he called my bluff and said do I wan't a FPN or go to court. As I wasn't sure of my rights I said I would take the FPN as long as I had the right to appeal after consulting with a lawyer. He then threatened to caution me.
I know a bit about these things and, as a frequent visitor to the US, know a caution hampers your entry to the country. So I asked him what he meant by caution - i.e. was it a recordable caution. He said no. I felt the ground he was on was shaky, but I was no better. So I took the FPN and went on my way as he was becoming threatening in his manner. Also, my wife and two young kids were in the car.
My question is, is his private testimony sufficient in court. He never said how fast I was going, only that I was "way" over the speed limit. I don't think I was "way" over the speed limit, only that I was sloppy for not watching what I was doing. What can I do?
Anyway, he invites me into his car and gives me the speal. Tells me was I aware I was doing well above the speed limit and that if I want to court it could be much worse than £60 and 3 points. He went to great lengths to nail the point home I should take the FPN. His overstating of the benefits of the FPN got me wondering whether he would have problems enforcing a prosecution in court.
So I asked him whether he had recorded me with a camera, to which he replied the car wasn't fitted with one. So I asked him he could be sure I was doing a constant speed if he he was on his own and had no recording device. I mean, how could he, in only half a mile, acurately record my speed so it was admissable in court, whilst controlling his car?
At this point he raised his voice and told me it was obvious I wanted to go to court. I replied that I had a right to know what my rights were. This went on for a few minutes to which he called my bluff and said do I wan't a FPN or go to court. As I wasn't sure of my rights I said I would take the FPN as long as I had the right to appeal after consulting with a lawyer. He then threatened to caution me.
I know a bit about these things and, as a frequent visitor to the US, know a caution hampers your entry to the country. So I asked him what he meant by caution - i.e. was it a recordable caution. He said no. I felt the ground he was on was shaky, but I was no better. So I took the FPN and went on my way as he was becoming threatening in his manner. Also, my wife and two young kids were in the car.
My question is, is his private testimony sufficient in court. He never said how fast I was going, only that I was "way" over the speed limit. I don't think I was "way" over the speed limit, only that I was sloppy for not watching what I was doing. What can I do?
Good procedure for issuing an FPN is
1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
Sheriff JWPepper said:
Good procedure for issuing an FPN is
1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
Its clear which side of the fence you are on.1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
Chemical Ali said:
My question is, is his private testimony sufficient in court.
If the court are happy that his evidence proves the offence beyond reasonable doubt then yes.As far as case law goes.
One officer & an uncalibrated speedo can be sufficient if the margin is not small.
The opinion of two independent officers can be sufficient without any measurement device.
Chemical Ali said:
What can I do?
Pay the FPN & take the points or request a court hearing.Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 13th November 23:55
Chemical Ali said:
Usual thing, late at night and raining and didn't see him coming up behind me until he turned his lights on. My head was switched off .......
Sounds like good evidence for a section 3 as well!Chemical Ali said:
What can I do?
Take advice from VONHOSEN above and then continue with a thread about how unfair the laws on speeding are, how the police can get away with it and they must be all corrupt.Mg6b said:
Chemical Ali said:
Usual thing, late at night and raining and didn't see him coming up behind me until he turned his lights on. My head was switched off .......
Sounds like good evidence for a section 3 as well!Chemical Ali said:
What can I do?
Take advice from VONHOSEN above and then continue with a thread about how unfair the laws on speeding are, how the police can get away with it and they must be all corrupt.I am asking a sensible question, which I would be disinclined to do had I not been treated like a lower class citizen by the officer.
Chemical Ali said:
Sheriff JWPepper said:
Good procedure for issuing an FPN is
1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
Its clear which side of the fence you are on.1. Caution first (You do not have to say anything...)
2. Issue the ticket
3. Report for the offence (I am reporting you for consideration of the question of prosecuting you for...) so that a summons can be issued if the FPN is not complied with.
4. Lastly and finally give a now caution which is a slightly different version of the caution which basically states that you should mention now anything you plan to rely on in defence, although you don't have to but it may harm you defence if you don't.
The caution is completely different to a police caution which is an adult final warning for an offence which has been admitted and is normally issued at a police station. NB You can't get a police caution if you don't admit to the offence, you will go to court.
What this comes down to is looking at the endgame - that is court.
He will stand up in court and say in his opinion you are speeding and say what that opinion is based upon. Sight, speedo, VASCAR, whatever.
With no other evidence you will of course be convicted. If you were not speeding, and you give the court evidence to that then unless they think you are lying they will accept this also.
However, in thread like this if the original poster really believes they are innocent they will be shouting this from the rooftops due to the injustice.
My advice is that unless you are sure you are innocent and are willing to testify as such you have two options. Pay up, or pay Nick Freeman and Co £4000 or so to try and look for a 'loophole'.
Yes, I think that is probably the best idea. Pay up and take the rap. My annoyance is based on the fact that I have never been stopped in nearly 20 years of motoring and had points and the way it was dealt with was as if I was some sort of scum who deserved more punishment than I got.
I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
Chemical Ali said:
Yes, I think that is probably the best idea. Pay up and take the rap. My annoyance is based on the fact that I have never been stopped in nearly 20 years of motoring and had points and the way it was dealt with was as if I was some sort of scum who deserved more punishment than I got.
I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
Have you committed plenty of traffic offences in those 20 years though ?I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
How many incidents of speeding ?
Even if you pay up, I would imagine you are still in credit by a long long way.
vonhosen said:
Chemical Ali said:
Yes, I think that is probably the best idea. Pay up and take the rap. My annoyance is based on the fact that I have never been stopped in nearly 20 years of motoring and had points and the way it was dealt with was as if I was some sort of scum who deserved more punishment than I got.
I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
Have you committed plenty of traffic offences in those 20 years though ?I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
How many incidents of speeding ?
Even if you pay up, I would imagine you are still in credit by a long long way.
With the possible exception of a tiny proportion of police officers, for whom one has the highest regard of course, but what a shame some of them can't find a little more empathy with the enthusiasts here.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Chemical Ali said:
Yes, I think that is probably the best idea. Pay up and take the rap. My annoyance is based on the fact that I have never been stopped in nearly 20 years of motoring and had points and the way it was dealt with was as if I was some sort of scum who deserved more punishment than I got.
I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
Dented pride then?I suppose they have to deal with some nasty pieces of work so become naturally very defensive.
The FPN is actually a better option for the offender unless, of course they, genuinely aren't guilty.
And even if you take the FPN at the roadside, you can always opt for a court appearance if you later decide to reject the FPN. Taking the ticket at the roadside isn't an admission of guilt. It should be explained on the back of the ticket, or he should have explained that to you.
[quote]With the possible exception of a tiny proportion of police officers, for whom one has the highest regard of course, but what a shame some of them can't find a little more empathy with the enthusiasts here.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
[/quote]
Maybe the "enthusiasts" here might show a little less anti-police attitude too ?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
[/quote]
Maybe the "enthusiasts" here might show a little less anti-police attitude too ?
Isoproturon1 said:
Maybe the "enthusiasts" here might show a little less anti-police attitude too ?
Perhaps we would if the police were not mis-deployed in such a way as to be, effectively, the enemy.If trafpol are going to be used to enforce speed limits, I'd as soon not pay for them, they're worse than useless.
I want a police force that politely protects the person and property of the citizenry without inconvenience; run the police that way and you'll have my full support. Waste resources on enforcing oppressive arbitrary laws for their own sake and you won't.
While I'm sure you and the rest of the BiB on here want to do good and make a positive difference my personal experience, and that of my extended family, close friends and colleagues is of a 0% clear up rate and the occasional frankly malicious speeding ticket.
What do we owe the police, as constituted?
Isoproturon1 said:
Maybe the "enthusiasts" here might show a little less anti-police attitude too ?
Yes, I'm aware that there are a few severe critics and they no doubt have their reasons, but I'm certainly not anti-police, and I believe that goes for most of us here.Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Wednesday 14th November 19:39
TripleS said:
Isoproturon1 said:
Maybe the "enthusiasts" here might show a little less anti-police attitude too ?
Yes, I'm aware that there are a few severe critics and they no doubt have their reasons, but I'm certainly not anti-police, and I believe that goes for most of us here.Best wishes all,
Dave.
Edited by TripleS on Wednesday 14th November 19:39
As for being in credit, you are guilty when you are prosecuted. Not when you go over the limit. This might sound arrogant, especially to you fine police constables, but as was explained to me over the course of my law degrees, if this was not the case the simple act of borrowing a pencil from a freind without permission would be an actionable offence.
fluffnik said:
I want a police force that politely protects the person and property of the citizenry without inconvenience; run the police that way and you'll have my full support. Waste resources on enforcing oppressive arbitrary laws for their own sake and you won't.
Probably the thoughts of many a career burglar 
Chemical Ali said:
Its clear which side of the fence you are on.
I not taking sides with this one, I can't be bothered with arguing the toss over the endless scenarios posted on SP&L and now just try to help with any misconceptions.I thought you were confused by the use of the caution so was just trying to clear that up.
Edited by Sheriff JWPepper on Wednesday 14th November 21:49
Mg6b said:
fluffnik said:
I want a police force that politely protects the person and property of the citizenry without inconvenience; run the police that way and you'll have my full support. Waste resources on enforcing oppressive arbitrary laws for their own sake and you won't.
Probably the thoughts of many a career burglar 
t.You'll note I said "I want a police force that politely protects the person and property of the citizenry without inconvenience"
"
"[C]itizenry" means everyone from Betty Battenburg all the way down to you.
...and me.
Protecting property means busting burglars LOTS.
Oh, BTW, I regard burglary only marginally less serious than violent rape...
I've suffered three losses due to criminal damage where the police were useless beyond giving me the number of an emergency glazier.
No-one I know who has reported a crime to the police - including robbery with violence, burglary and ABH - has got a result; 0% clear up.
I'm inclined to think that scrapping the public service, and saving the tax paid, in favour of paying via household insurance might not be the better option.
I have no interest in paying for speed enforcement of tolerating a bunch of useless parasites doing it for "free" so I don't see what's to lose with a privatised police system...
Why do we keep paying your wages?
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