Monaro wrong gearbox
Discussion
In 2004 the Monaro was launched and I thought one of these could be the car for me. Although generally welcomed by the media, more critical analysis said the car was over geared which put me off. I used to have a Rover Vitesse 3.5 which was similarly hampered. Cars in Australia and the USA were introduced with a different gearbox with shorter ratios. A press release suggested that the 2005 UK Monaros would also now have this gearbox. In January 2005 I asked the dealer about this who said he would look into it but didn't get back to me. Vauxhall customer assistance said that full details would be available at the car's launch.
In March 2005 the 2005 Monaros were launched and indeed the 5.7CV8 brochure quoted the shorter ratios (VIN code M12). So I bought one without a test drive, paying full list price. Though I didn't notice straight away, after a few weeks I did notice that my car had the old gearing (VIN code MM6) and raised this with the dealer Drive in Bristol. Initially they were stumped and said it must be a miss build and would change it. After a couple of months however and further discussion, with lots of Vauxhall staff getting peripherally involved, they said that they would not change the gearbox. The car was correct, it was the brochure that was wrong. They refused to have the car back and refund my money.
I then sued Drive for breach of contract and claimed £9K - Drive's quote for changing the gearbox (said diff and prop needed as well). Whilst the case was proceeding in Dec 05 they did offer me my money back which I didn't accept. This was really Vauxhall doing the dealer a favour not me as the error was not the dealer's fault but it was he I was suing.
I offered to abort my action if they supplied me with the gearbox which they refused, so I continued with the action. In July 06 the case was heard and although Drive were found in breach of contract, no award was made, as I was deemed not to have suffered any loss. I had a working gearbox and could not claim for "disappointment" in the car's performance.
As I believed the car would still be much improved with the shorter gears I proceeded to try and obtain and fit the correct gearbox myself. I had details of a new box which had appeared on ebay Australia but not sold. I contacted the seller who raced Monaros and agreed to buy it, air freighting it from Australia. In Dec 06 this turned up but to my horror was another example of the box I already had with the tall ratios. This gearbox appeared to be incorrectly labelled by the original manufacturer Tremec. It transpired that it was one of a batch of incorrectly labelled ones and the seller promised to send me a correct one. Needless to say he didn't and became evasive. In May I gave up on him and sold the gearbox on eBay at a loss.
I quickly found another from a speed shop in Texas. Again a brand new one. This one was correct and I fitted it my self in August this year. The gearboxes are totally interchangeable and it proved a straight forward swap. This made the big improvement I expected, the car is so much more "punchy" and the engine better matched to realistic road conditions.
I approached Vauxhall now I had my car correct and the full cost and technical position quantified. I asked them to make a good will contribution but they have refused. Although the wrong gearbox was not a technical failure or reliability issue as such, it was a business information systems error where Vauxhall marketing failed to check their facts and the brochure was wrong.
So in summary I appeared to have been desperately unlucky, buying a new car for a specific improvement only to find it specifically excluded. I made unusual efforts to check the car's specification in advance but still I could not uncover Vauxhall's error. Also I uncover a further error in Tremec's gearboxes.
One of the stumbling blocks through all this was Vauxhall's huge mark up on the gearbox. They want £6,500 where I only paid £1500 plus £500 for the shipping/importation. These T56 gearboxes are widely available in America where they are sold as aftermarket retrofits for automatics. So rip off Britain is alive and well and our economy is still so far behind the USAs. For anything a bit different we still have to pay through the nose.
The 6.0VXR did have the M12 ratios and in fact gets more of its improved performance from them than the slightly larger engine.
Why aren't the 05 CV8s the same Australia and here? Vauxhall said that the CV8 failed it's EU drive by noise emission test. So apparently continuing with the taller gearing made it just quieter enough to pass the test.
Obviously by any measure I don't think Drive/Vauxhall's customer service has been very good. They messed me about, twice telling me verbally the gearbox would be changed. As I have shown by correcting the car myself it was technically possible at relatively modest cost. Later 2005 CV8s were discounted by £6K which shows Drive/Vauxhall clearly had the margin to spend on putting me right and could have made a good will gesture. This must surely have been a one in a million occurrence. Looks like they don't want me back next year to buy a VXR8.
I will post another topic in the near future with more technical detail on the gearboxes and the swap.
In March 2005 the 2005 Monaros were launched and indeed the 5.7CV8 brochure quoted the shorter ratios (VIN code M12). So I bought one without a test drive, paying full list price. Though I didn't notice straight away, after a few weeks I did notice that my car had the old gearing (VIN code MM6) and raised this with the dealer Drive in Bristol. Initially they were stumped and said it must be a miss build and would change it. After a couple of months however and further discussion, with lots of Vauxhall staff getting peripherally involved, they said that they would not change the gearbox. The car was correct, it was the brochure that was wrong. They refused to have the car back and refund my money.
I then sued Drive for breach of contract and claimed £9K - Drive's quote for changing the gearbox (said diff and prop needed as well). Whilst the case was proceeding in Dec 05 they did offer me my money back which I didn't accept. This was really Vauxhall doing the dealer a favour not me as the error was not the dealer's fault but it was he I was suing.
I offered to abort my action if they supplied me with the gearbox which they refused, so I continued with the action. In July 06 the case was heard and although Drive were found in breach of contract, no award was made, as I was deemed not to have suffered any loss. I had a working gearbox and could not claim for "disappointment" in the car's performance.
As I believed the car would still be much improved with the shorter gears I proceeded to try and obtain and fit the correct gearbox myself. I had details of a new box which had appeared on ebay Australia but not sold. I contacted the seller who raced Monaros and agreed to buy it, air freighting it from Australia. In Dec 06 this turned up but to my horror was another example of the box I already had with the tall ratios. This gearbox appeared to be incorrectly labelled by the original manufacturer Tremec. It transpired that it was one of a batch of incorrectly labelled ones and the seller promised to send me a correct one. Needless to say he didn't and became evasive. In May I gave up on him and sold the gearbox on eBay at a loss.
I quickly found another from a speed shop in Texas. Again a brand new one. This one was correct and I fitted it my self in August this year. The gearboxes are totally interchangeable and it proved a straight forward swap. This made the big improvement I expected, the car is so much more "punchy" and the engine better matched to realistic road conditions.
I approached Vauxhall now I had my car correct and the full cost and technical position quantified. I asked them to make a good will contribution but they have refused. Although the wrong gearbox was not a technical failure or reliability issue as such, it was a business information systems error where Vauxhall marketing failed to check their facts and the brochure was wrong.
So in summary I appeared to have been desperately unlucky, buying a new car for a specific improvement only to find it specifically excluded. I made unusual efforts to check the car's specification in advance but still I could not uncover Vauxhall's error. Also I uncover a further error in Tremec's gearboxes.
One of the stumbling blocks through all this was Vauxhall's huge mark up on the gearbox. They want £6,500 where I only paid £1500 plus £500 for the shipping/importation. These T56 gearboxes are widely available in America where they are sold as aftermarket retrofits for automatics. So rip off Britain is alive and well and our economy is still so far behind the USAs. For anything a bit different we still have to pay through the nose.
The 6.0VXR did have the M12 ratios and in fact gets more of its improved performance from them than the slightly larger engine.
Why aren't the 05 CV8s the same Australia and here? Vauxhall said that the CV8 failed it's EU drive by noise emission test. So apparently continuing with the taller gearing made it just quieter enough to pass the test.
Obviously by any measure I don't think Drive/Vauxhall's customer service has been very good. They messed me about, twice telling me verbally the gearbox would be changed. As I have shown by correcting the car myself it was technically possible at relatively modest cost. Later 2005 CV8s were discounted by £6K which shows Drive/Vauxhall clearly had the margin to spend on putting me right and could have made a good will gesture. This must surely have been a one in a million occurrence. Looks like they don't want me back next year to buy a VXR8.
I will post another topic in the near future with more technical detail on the gearboxes and the swap.
It doesn't sound like a great customer experience, which sadly doesn't at all surprise me, but one question - why didn't you just change the diff for a shorter one? These are easily avaialble in the UK and cost about a grand I believe. Would that not have had the same result? Or am I missing something?
As I commented in previous threads, perhaps the Monaro should have been geared for 200 tops, however 5th is good for 160, whereas 6th is too high and merely for fuel economy. My question is 'Does the different gearbox make a significant difference to the performance of the car?' I ask this because how much would the proposed change affect the use of the car? Yes, I would love to say that I have a car that will do 180 mph, but realistically, would I ever do this (my 13 year old asks 'When are we going to Germany?') and other than reducing the petrol consumption, would I benefit from the change? Over to you for an answer.
It was my understanding that the VZ Monaro's came with the different boxes. At least the HSV/VXR versions anyway. When the cars got to VZ, even the Aussies got confused as there was never technically a series II VZ although there were about 3 updates. Up to VY series II, it was easy. (that is the equivalent of your 2004 Monaro/Big boot)
"Big Boot" definately had the older gearbox with the tall 5th and 6th gear.
If you bought an VZ SV8, you could get one of 3 cars depending on the year.
2004...has the SS mechanicals (5.7) but no bodykit
2005...has the SS mechanicals (5.7) + the SV6 bodykit
2006...has the SS mechanicals (bigger 6.0 engine) + SV6 bodykit
If I trawled through all my old magazines, I might be able to find when they switched to the MM6.
A good gearbox place for the T56 is www.malwoodauto.com.au
"Big Boot" definately had the older gearbox with the tall 5th and 6th gear.
If you bought an VZ SV8, you could get one of 3 cars depending on the year.
2004...has the SS mechanicals (5.7) but no bodykit
2005...has the SS mechanicals (5.7) + the SV6 bodykit
2006...has the SS mechanicals (bigger 6.0 engine) + SV6 bodykit
If I trawled through all my old magazines, I might be able to find when they switched to the MM6.
A good gearbox place for the T56 is www.malwoodauto.com.au
sorry but whilst there may have been a mistake am I right in thinking they offered you your money back and refused?
Rather than pissing about with a new gearbox, seriously I dont understand your issue with standard, you could change the rear differential for much much less.
Appreciate you were mis-lead on the advert but they offered you your money back and you said no and carried on tryin to chase the different gear box which was still coupled to the 3.46 diff? Madness, absolute madness.
Rather than pissing about with a new gearbox, seriously I dont understand your issue with standard, you could change the rear differential for much much less.
Appreciate you were mis-lead on the advert but they offered you your money back and you said no and carried on tryin to chase the different gear box which was still coupled to the 3.46 diff? Madness, absolute madness.
Monkfish quote £1500 for the diff so roughly the same as the gearbox. Also I wanted to look at my clutch and speedo unaffected. If the diff is the way to go why didn't GM themselves go this route for the 6.0VXR? It does actually help in traffic with the shorter first. Less slipping that heavy clutch...
I did want my money back but only after some time into the legal action did Vauxhall make the offer to appease the dealer.
The performance is loads better. Before it often felt it was taking too long to get through each gear. Now it is so much more punchy. Power is matched to realistic road conditions so much better.
I've only ever seen one other 05 CV8. Couple of months ago along the A38 in Filton. Was that you then Yertis? Mine is silver.
I did want my money back but only after some time into the legal action did Vauxhall make the offer to appease the dealer.
The performance is loads better. Before it often felt it was taking too long to get through each gear. Now it is so much more punchy. Power is matched to realistic road conditions so much better.
I've only ever seen one other 05 CV8. Couple of months ago along the A38 in Filton. Was that you then Yertis? Mine is silver.
you were unhappy with car
vauxhall did what you would do in their case and try not to pay out, they offer you a pay out, you refuse because they were only doing it to help out the dealer? What?!?
You then have problems with a replacement box until you strike it lucky and get the one you wanted. You are out of pocket. You have a replacement box, the same as used in the later monaros. You still have a 3.46 diff.
The 04 vxr had a 3.71 for a sportier setup. The 6.0 cars had the 3.46 I suspect because their extra power didnt need the shorter ratio plus the fact the 3.46 would give better economy.
You seem/sound very technical but a nightmare punter
vauxhall did what you would do in their case and try not to pay out, they offer you a pay out, you refuse because they were only doing it to help out the dealer? What?!?
You then have problems with a replacement box until you strike it lucky and get the one you wanted. You are out of pocket. You have a replacement box, the same as used in the later monaros. You still have a 3.46 diff.
The 04 vxr had a 3.71 for a sportier setup. The 6.0 cars had the 3.46 I suspect because their extra power didnt need the shorter ratio plus the fact the 3.46 would give better economy.
You seem/sound very technical but a nightmare punter
Edited by stigmundfreud on Thursday 15th November 23:01
I can imagine the frustration.
The closer ratio box is worth getting IMO.
I had a T56 custom-built by Mal Wood using the closer ratios and the stronger (Viper) shafts and bearings and other parts.
This was shipped to the UAE here and the car (ALL M-East cars A4 ONLY!) was converted to M6 (first known LHD manual conversion). Mal Wood were very helpful as LHD M6 cars hadn't been validated for production at the time and a few parts had to be custom-made.
I have tried the earlier type T56-1386-000-22E (MM6) box in a 382cid engined car here fitted with 3.73 diff.
1st gear with this final drive ratio is then too low and mostly unusable. Then once up to speed there's still the large gap from 4th to 5th and 5th to 6th.
Whereas with the closer ratios box (and in a car with 3.46FD) the ratios are perfect spaced for open-road driving. Though for the UK with the twistier roads and lower speed limits 3.73FD would probably be better as MM12 6th with 3.73FD is still good for 350kph or 218mph @6200rpm.
www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49562
www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp
The closer ratio box is worth getting IMO.
I had a T56 custom-built by Mal Wood using the closer ratios and the stronger (Viper) shafts and bearings and other parts.
This was shipped to the UAE here and the car (ALL M-East cars A4 ONLY!) was converted to M6 (first known LHD manual conversion). Mal Wood were very helpful as LHD M6 cars hadn't been validated for production at the time and a few parts had to be custom-made.
I have tried the earlier type T56-1386-000-22E (MM6) box in a 382cid engined car here fitted with 3.73 diff.
1st gear with this final drive ratio is then too low and mostly unusable. Then once up to speed there's still the large gap from 4th to 5th and 5th to 6th.
Whereas with the closer ratios box (and in a car with 3.46FD) the ratios are perfect spaced for open-road driving. Though for the UK with the twistier roads and lower speed limits 3.73FD would probably be better as MM12 6th with 3.73FD is still good for 350kph or 218mph @6200rpm.
www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=49562
www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp
Edited by sid447 on Saturday 17th November 07:04
Edited by sid447 on Saturday 17th November 07:05
phrich said:
stigmundfreud said:
you were unhappy with car
You seem/sound very technical but a nightmare punter
Please be nice to the Techy guy, he is my only chance of passing the exam at the end.You seem/sound very technical but a nightmare punter
Edited by stigmundfreud on Thursday 15th November 23:01
I am being nice just saying nightmare punter! You seen his other threads, the guys a walking technical library Nightmare! No not me mate! No it was the dealer who was the nightmare. I was the perfect punter. Turns up on the day the car was launched. Pays list price without a test drive. Quick check of the one in the show room - oh yes it's the dog's bollox, quick check of the brochure - oh yes they've fixed the gearing.
One of the many "managers" phones me up to tell me they were "coming up with a gearbox". Clearly not empowered to make me that promise. Another one offers me £23K to buy it back. Further offers to swap +8K for a used VXR, e.g. I pay more than list for a used one! Later in front of the judge he did admit it wasn't a very good offer.
What Drive should have done was offer me my money back straight away. This would have avoided the legal action and I might well have decided to keep the car under pressure from friends, or pay the extra 7K for a new VXR.
One of the many "managers" phones me up to tell me they were "coming up with a gearbox". Clearly not empowered to make me that promise. Another one offers me £23K to buy it back. Further offers to swap +8K for a used VXR, e.g. I pay more than list for a used one! Later in front of the judge he did admit it wasn't a very good offer.
What Drive should have done was offer me my money back straight away. This would have avoided the legal action and I might well have decided to keep the car under pressure from friends, or pay the extra 7K for a new VXR.
If it was such a big thing to make sure of, I would have made sure that it definitely was the gear box I was after. OK, yes, it would have been nice to have what you expected to be in there, but then again things do change as it goes along. Especially cause it sounded like you were happy with the car to start off with. Sounds just very nitt picky, to me. More important things to worry about in life as far as I am concerned.
Sorry if this sounds gruff, but sounds a bit of a wank fest to me.
Sorry if this sounds gruff, but sounds a bit of a wank fest to me.
The problem is that 99% of brochures have either (or both)
"E&OE"
"specifications subject to change without notice"
So you *can't* take the brochure other than as a guide.
A similar situation occurred when the S2 Elise was released as shortly after deliveries started Lotus swapped the nice expensive VDO unit out for the cheapest Pioneer unit they could find. Many customers were upset that the unit was downgraded from a unit costing about 400quid each to under a 100 quid and complained demanding refunds, threatening legal action and cancelled orders. The effect - nadda. The brochure does not form in any way part of a legally binding contract with respect to ordering a car.
Specific requests like this need to be on the order form to have any real chance (and it's remote even then) of getting out of the contract and recovering your deposit.
Finally, when you pick up a new car you need to specifically check these things before leaving the dealers forecourt. I know it's difficult as the anticipation of a new car can override even the most sane person but if it means that much then you have to do it. Granted, I would say checking a gearbox is on the bounds of "reasonable checks" in regards to meeting the conditions of the order but if the information was available on the VIN this should have been possible.
Sorry for the hard edge and I do sympathise but am not surprised at the outcome.
"E&OE"
"specifications subject to change without notice"
So you *can't* take the brochure other than as a guide.
A similar situation occurred when the S2 Elise was released as shortly after deliveries started Lotus swapped the nice expensive VDO unit out for the cheapest Pioneer unit they could find. Many customers were upset that the unit was downgraded from a unit costing about 400quid each to under a 100 quid and complained demanding refunds, threatening legal action and cancelled orders. The effect - nadda. The brochure does not form in any way part of a legally binding contract with respect to ordering a car.
Specific requests like this need to be on the order form to have any real chance (and it's remote even then) of getting out of the contract and recovering your deposit.
Finally, when you pick up a new car you need to specifically check these things before leaving the dealers forecourt. I know it's difficult as the anticipation of a new car can override even the most sane person but if it means that much then you have to do it. Granted, I would say checking a gearbox is on the bounds of "reasonable checks" in regards to meeting the conditions of the order but if the information was available on the VIN this should have been possible.
Sorry for the hard edge and I do sympathise but am not surprised at the outcome.
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