If a speed limit is invalid what's the speed limit
Discussion
think it's the previous limit.
Question is though, let's say you were in a street lit 40, which then turns to 30 but one of the 30 signs is missing (ie only on lets say the left side of the road and not the right), how far does the 40 limit then continue considering the fact that there won't be any more 40 repeater signs?
Question is though, let's say you were in a street lit 40, which then turns to 30 but one of the 30 signs is missing (ie only on lets say the left side of the road and not the right), how far does the 40 limit then continue considering the fact that there won't be any more 40 repeater signs?
If the correct paperwork was raised when the limit was introduced, and it is only the signing that is wrong, then the previous limit no longer applies. The only limit which applies is that which is unenforceable. After all, if you do 80 in a 40, you only get booked for exceeding 40, the fact that you exceeded the NSL as well is irrelevant since the NSL no longer applies. So the way I see it, there is no enforceable limit.
That is for speed enforcement,
However speed can be a factor in careless or dangerous driving and the posted limits may make little difference, so if its reduced to 50 from national and the speed limit is not enforceable and decide to return to the old limit and a collision occurs then it could be argued for careless or dangerous.
Be careful when playing with speed limts even if they are unenforceable as there are other offences out there.
However speed can be a factor in careless or dangerous driving and the posted limits may make little difference, so if its reduced to 50 from national and the speed limit is not enforceable and decide to return to the old limit and a collision occurs then it could be argued for careless or dangerous.
Be careful when playing with speed limts even if they are unenforceable as there are other offences out there.
^Slider^ said:
That is for speed enforcement,
However speed can be a factor in careless or dangerous driving and the posted limits may make little difference, so if its reduced to 50 from national and the speed limit is not enforceable and decide to return to the old limit and a collision occurs then it could be argued for careless or dangerous.
Be careful when playing with speed limts even if they are unenforceable as there are other offences out there.
The ironic thing is the missing sign at the start of the limit is a result of a vehicle hitting it. FFS it's in the middle of nowhere. However speed can be a factor in careless or dangerous driving and the posted limits may make little difference, so if its reduced to 50 from national and the speed limit is not enforceable and decide to return to the old limit and a collision occurs then it could be argued for careless or dangerous.
Be careful when playing with speed limts even if they are unenforceable as there are other offences out there.
And while other charges could apply I tend to use this road when it's deserted and my speeds are those that a careful and competent driver would choose. I just want to be certain of the rules in case I ever have to say "did you check the signage prior to commencing enforcement"
There's a section of inner city roadworks in Leeds where during roadworks all the 40 signs were painted over with grey paint and a temporary 30 limit enforced by temporary signs was enforced.
However the roadworks have since left and the painted over 40 signs haven't been cleaned up again. So is it a 30 as per the previous limit , a 40 allthough not signed or an MSL 70 as per a dual carriageway?
However the roadworks have since left and the painted over 40 signs haven't been cleaned up again. So is it a 30 as per the previous limit , a 40 allthough not signed or an MSL 70 as per a dual carriageway?
If you drive into Edinburgh Airport, you'll go from a DCW to a streetlit road...So I'm guessing its a 30. But as you approach the last roundabout(!), theres an NSL sign up there. Must say I dont have much clue whats going on there, but it seems some wierd logic is at work. I'll take a pic next time I go through, if I can be bothered.
Look at this way Rob.
When the 50 was brought in it would be the result of a Traffic Speed Regulation Order. In the Order it would be clearly defined the length of the restriction i.e. "starting 100 metres south of the jucntion with X to opposite the junction with Y." Signs would be erected at the start and end of that.
So if the signage was in correct then THAT limit is no longer lawful so it must revert back to waht it was before the limit was applied. NSL if no street lighting. If street lighting and complies then I understand 30.
dvd
When the 50 was brought in it would be the result of a Traffic Speed Regulation Order. In the Order it would be clearly defined the length of the restriction i.e. "starting 100 metres south of the jucntion with X to opposite the junction with Y." Signs would be erected at the start and end of that.
So if the signage was in correct then THAT limit is no longer lawful so it must revert back to waht it was before the limit was applied. NSL if no street lighting. If street lighting and complies then I understand 30.
dvd
This is more complicated than it looks (why do so many of my posts on speed limits start off like that?) I can think of three possible "default" situations:
1. The road is unclassified and with a system of street lights. ie a "restricted road" in terms of the Act. The default limit is then 30, but it must be signed as 30 when you enter it. If not, then I think that NSL would apply.
A Traffic Regulation Order would be required to make the speed limit anything else - whether that be downwards (eg 20 mph) or upwards (40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (entry or repeater signs) for that higher limit, then the default would still be 30.
2. The road is unclassified with no system of street lights. The default limit is then NSL. As above, a Traffic Regulation Order would then be required to make the speed limit anything lower (30, 40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (including repeaters), the default would then be NSL.
3. The road is classified (with or without a system of street lights. The default limit on all classified roads (A Class and, I think, B-roads but I'm not very sure about the latter these days) is automatically NSL, whether they are lit or not. As above, a Traffic Regulation Order would be required to make the speed limit anything lower (30, 40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (including repeaters if lit and not 30), then the default would be NSL in that case.
In ALL cases, the NSL is set out in separate legislation (ie not by Traffic Regulation Order) so will ALWAYS apply as an "upper limit" on all roads - you can never default to "no limit whatsoever" - there is a NATIONAL speed limit for different classes of vehicle. That means that if you say, make an Order to reduce the speed limit from NSL to 50, HGVs are still bound to a limit of 40 because that is the NSL for that class of vehicle - they cannot exceed that NSL anywhere on public roads (well they can, but not according to the law!) even if the posted speed limit for other vehicle classes is higher.
In practice, stuff like this should make no difference to the motorist - if people in roads authorities knew the scoop and followed the correct procedure and erected and maintained their signs properly, then none of this would be important. In practice, though, it's a seriously good question and I hope that this helps a bit.
Apologies that my posts like this are tedious to read - but I hope that they are (usually) right!
1. The road is unclassified and with a system of street lights. ie a "restricted road" in terms of the Act. The default limit is then 30, but it must be signed as 30 when you enter it. If not, then I think that NSL would apply.
A Traffic Regulation Order would be required to make the speed limit anything else - whether that be downwards (eg 20 mph) or upwards (40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (entry or repeater signs) for that higher limit, then the default would still be 30.
2. The road is unclassified with no system of street lights. The default limit is then NSL. As above, a Traffic Regulation Order would then be required to make the speed limit anything lower (30, 40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (including repeaters), the default would then be NSL.
3. The road is classified (with or without a system of street lights. The default limit on all classified roads (A Class and, I think, B-roads but I'm not very sure about the latter these days) is automatically NSL, whether they are lit or not. As above, a Traffic Regulation Order would be required to make the speed limit anything lower (30, 40, 50, 60). If there were faults in the Order process or the signing (including repeaters if lit and not 30), then the default would be NSL in that case.
In ALL cases, the NSL is set out in separate legislation (ie not by Traffic Regulation Order) so will ALWAYS apply as an "upper limit" on all roads - you can never default to "no limit whatsoever" - there is a NATIONAL speed limit for different classes of vehicle. That means that if you say, make an Order to reduce the speed limit from NSL to 50, HGVs are still bound to a limit of 40 because that is the NSL for that class of vehicle - they cannot exceed that NSL anywhere on public roads (well they can, but not according to the law!) even if the posted speed limit for other vehicle classes is higher.
In practice, stuff like this should make no difference to the motorist - if people in roads authorities knew the scoop and followed the correct procedure and erected and maintained their signs properly, then none of this would be important. In practice, though, it's a seriously good question and I hope that this helps a bit.
Apologies that my posts like this are tedious to read - but I hope that they are (usually) right!
Dwight VanDriver said:
Look at this way Rob.
When the 50 was brought in it would be the result of a Traffic Speed Regulation Order. In the Order it would be clearly defined the length of the restriction i.e. "starting 100 metres south of the jucntion with X to opposite the junction with Y." Signs would be erected at the start and end of that.
So if the signage was in correct then THAT limit is no longer lawful so it must revert back to waht it was before the limit was applied. NSL if no street lighting. If street lighting and complies then I understand 30.
dvd
Cheers DvD, that's what I thought... Interestingly, the NSL is interspersed with a 30 limit, the sign travelling back this way is also missing. Now should I tell them or should I keep it as a "get out of jail free" card When the 50 was brought in it would be the result of a Traffic Speed Regulation Order. In the Order it would be clearly defined the length of the restriction i.e. "starting 100 metres south of the jucntion with X to opposite the junction with Y." Signs would be erected at the start and end of that.
So if the signage was in correct then THAT limit is no longer lawful so it must revert back to waht it was before the limit was applied. NSL if no street lighting. If street lighting and complies then I understand 30.
dvd
Furthermore, the NSL is not a speed limit applied to the road, but a class restriction on the use of a particular type of vehicle on the PH. Regardless of any or no legal speed limit, TRO or other applied to the road, the class restriction remains in place.
However, in cases of enforcement, you can bet they'd go for breaking the limit, which you'd get off if the signage was incorrect (and provided you didn't point out to them that they its S86 offence, not S84 - although I think they're all classed as S89)
However, in cases of enforcement, you can bet they'd go for breaking the limit, which you'd get off if the signage was incorrect (and provided you didn't point out to them that they its S86 offence, not S84 - although I think they're all classed as S89)
7db said:
Furthermore, the NSL is not a speed limit applied to the road, but a class restriction on the use of a particular type of vehicle on the PH. Regardless of any or no legal speed limit, TRO or other applied to the road, the class restriction remains in place.
Is it really? Wish I had said that...Oh hang on
tvrgit said:
7db said:
Furthermore, the NSL is not a speed limit applied to the road, but a class restriction on the use of a particular type of vehicle on the PH. Regardless of any or no legal speed limit, TRO or other applied to the road, the class restriction remains in place.
Is it really? Wish I had said that...Oh hang on
tvrgit said:
7db said:
Furthermore, the NSL is not a speed limit applied to the road, but a class restriction on the use of a particular type of vehicle on the PH. Regardless of any or no legal speed limit, TRO or other applied to the road, the class restriction remains in place.
Is it really? Wish I had said that...Oh hang on
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