Latest Tunning Provens
Discussion
Just that really. I miss the threads where everyone was experimenting with power upgrades on a Cerb. As I understand it the proven ones in order of effectiveness are.
Remap
inlet pipes
big bore pipes
Linked decats
pulse plates?
Anyone been playing with any new innovations or would like to put rough percentages figures on the above
Remap
inlet pipes
big bore pipes
Linked decats
pulse plates?
Anyone been playing with any new innovations or would like to put rough percentages figures on the above
julian64 said:
Just that really. I miss the threads where everyone was experimenting with power upgrades on a Cerb. As I understand it the proven ones in order of effectiveness are.
Remap
inlet pipes
big bore pipes
Linked decats
pulse plates?
Anyone been playing with any new innovations or would like to put rough percentages figures on the above
Good post Jules.Remap
inlet pipes
big bore pipes
Linked decats
pulse plates?
Anyone been playing with any new innovations or would like to put rough percentages figures on the above
Thought I'd dig this up that I did a while back in my very early days of tuning via Joolz at Track Car Solutions...............
Cyclone1 said:
As a guide for potential or existing Cerbera Owners I have put together a list of tuning options and power gains based on my 4.5 Cerb;
1) Standard 4.5 339.6bhp / 339lbs/ft (Surrey RR 12/03/05)
2) Unmapped Emerald ECU 375bhp / 365lbs/ft (Surrey RR 12/03/05)
3) Mapped Emerald ECU 384.6bhp / 353lbs/ft (Noble RR 22/03/05)
4) As 3, but with minor induction mod 389.2bhp / 356.7lbs/ft (Noble RR 22/03/05)
5) As 4, but with FFD short hoses (unmapped) 398.6bhp / 344.6lbs/ft (Noble RR 04/11/05)
6) As 5, but with remap 406bhp / 355lbs (Noble RR 10/11/05)
Value for money?;
1) £16k-£35k = £21,500 @ 339.6bhp = £63.31 per bhp
2) Emerald ECU £800 @ 35.4bhp = £22.60 per bhp gained
3) Emerald Mapping £240 @ 9.6bhp = £25 per bhp gained
4) Airbox Mod £50 @ 4.6bhp = £10.87 per bhp gained
5) FFD Short Hoses £350 @ 9.4bhp = £37.23 per bhp gained (Replace TVR purple hoses)
6) Mapping Time for Hoses £140 @ 7bhp = £20 per bhp gained
Total cost £1580 for 66 bhp gain at £23.94 per bhp.
How does the car feel at various states of tune?
1) It's a Cerb, it feels great
. Having owned a 4.2 previously I was aware that my 4.5 as std didn't feel particularly quicker, this was proved at Surrey RR where it put out 339bhp and 339lbs/ft torque. On the day it was about middle in the pecking order for 4.5s. Driveability was better than my previous 4.2, but this was probably down to the RR chip that had been fitted by APM 6 months earlier.
2) With the Emerald ECU plugged in (using a map from Satmans Cerb) it produced 375bhp and 365lbs/ft, this was literally unplug my MBE ECU and plug in the Emerald ECU, Joolz then spent a few minutes adjusting the fueling so that the car would start from cold and that was it! Driveability wasn't as good but this was to be expected as the map was not set up for my car, however, the performance difference was very noticeable, the car felt significantly quicker and very torquey, I have got to admit I was very impressed, especially as less than an hour earlier my car had put out 339bhp.
3) The Cerb was then sent to Noble Motorsport to have the Emerald ECU mapped specifically to my car, this resulted in a further increase in bhp upto 384.6bhp, but a slight decrease in torque to 353lbs/ft, the main difference was that the driveability of the car was vastly improved, being very smooth at low revs and the hesitancy on changing up a gear from 2nd to 3rd (slight dip in initial power in 3rd) had gone, the car felt strong all the way up the rev range.
4) Airbox Mod. Minor tweaks to the airbox by Joolz at TCS resulted in further gains in bhp/torque, up to 389.2bhp and 356.7lbs/ft torque, although minor they all count, and this mod proves to be the best VFM
.
5) Time to replace those haggard looking purple hoses. A few threads had bounced about with people talking about the gains that can be had from shortening the hoses, all of the theories expressed seemed viable, but I was worried about the potential drop in power and torque sub 4k rpm to allow an increase in power and torque above 4k rpm. After running the theories by a couple of "experts" at my work and Joolz at TCS, they came up with what they thought was the best option. Therefore I had some hoses made up and fitted them (piece of cake to fit). I then took the car out for a test drive knowing that a remap is definitely needed, however, the car felt a little bit lazy below 4k rpm, but appeared to really come to life at 4k+rpm (this later revealed itself as a fueling issue), the car felt quicker from a standing start under strong acceleration, but slower to pick up when cruising the motorway at 3-4k rpm, this lead me to think that I was down on torque. This is exactly what the Noble RR result showed, a drop in torque of around 10lbs/ft to 344.6lbs/ft, but an increase in power of around 10bhp to 398.6bhp. Peak torque had moved 600rpm up the rev range to 5368rpm, with bhp moving up 230rpm to 6763rpm. What was noticeable was how smooth the power and torque curves had become, the humps and bumps starting to disappear, however, compared to the longer hoses and even though the short hoses produced more power, the short hose set up without a remap was losing out in both power and torque at quite a few stages within the rev range. The fueling as earlier suggested was very wrong, around 5% upto 4k rpm, and not right from 4k rpm - 7.5krpm, this suggested that once corrected there were improvements to come.
6) The car was then remapped at Nobles to see what potential the short hoses really had, Darren who tuned the car was confident of seeing well inexcess of 400bhp and he was also confident that he could bridge all of the gaps within the rev range versus the longer hoses, and maybe exceed them. The results were excellent. In almost every area within the rev range the short hoses have exceed the power/torque of the longer hoses, with the results now showing 406bhp
and 355lbs/ft of torque. The engine produces 400bhp+ from 6600rpm to 7400rpm. More importantly is that the power and torque curves are incredibly smooth with no humps or bumps in the torque curve in particular, this can only be down to the design of the shorter hoses. The car drives as well as it ever has since the Emerald was installed, with next to no hesitancy from 1.5k rpm and above, and delivery of power is very strong but silky smooth. The car is now as well as it has ever been and probably how it always should have been.......when it left the factory.
What's left to do?
1) Linked Decats should see an increase of between 2-5bhp over std decats (£150)
2) Injectors - although I am not yet convinced that they will add more bhp (£400? + fitting)
3) Bespoke Manifolds - should see gains in bhp/torque of 2-5% (£800 + fitting)
4) Bespoke airbox (£600+), like the FFD hoses will require a bit of research and testing.
Not sure whether I'll do any of the above as the car now feels perfect, however, the linked decats will probably be fitted
, plus I wouldn't mind looking into some new manifolds
as well as the airbox......work in progress
....
I'll post the Graphs so that the differences are more apparent.
Stats;
1) 339.6bhp @ 6490rpm / 339lbs/ft @ 4470rpm
2) 375bhp @ 6650rpm / 365lbs/ft @ 4390rpm
3) 384.6bhp @ 6210rpm / 353lbs/ft @ 5013rpm
4) 389.2bhp @ 6533rpm / 356.7lbs/ft @ 4781rpm
5) 398.6bhp @ 6763rpm / 344.6lbs/ft @ 5368rpm
6) 405.6bhp @ 7149rpm / 354.7lbs/ft @ 5285rpm
Summary;
From 339bhp to 406bhp cost £1580 which includes Emerald ECU, airbox mod, remap and FFD Short hoses.
Thanks to Jools at TCS and Darren at Nobles for their time and patience with me....
Graphs as promised;
This graph shows a mapped Emerald unit as per state of tune no.3
This graph shows the Unmapped FFD short hoses (no.5) overlaying the mapped Emerald unit with airbox mod (no.4).
This graph shows the Mapped FFD short hoses (no.6) overlaying the mapped Emerald unit with airbox mod (no.4).
After the early tuning above Joolz did a fair bit more tuning to further increase the bhp / torque via the Emerald and then I added, Linked De-cats, Big Bore exhaust, Hi-Flow Filter and new smoothed manifolds to get 420bhp and 389lb/ft.1) Standard 4.5 339.6bhp / 339lbs/ft (Surrey RR 12/03/05)
2) Unmapped Emerald ECU 375bhp / 365lbs/ft (Surrey RR 12/03/05)
3) Mapped Emerald ECU 384.6bhp / 353lbs/ft (Noble RR 22/03/05)
4) As 3, but with minor induction mod 389.2bhp / 356.7lbs/ft (Noble RR 22/03/05)
5) As 4, but with FFD short hoses (unmapped) 398.6bhp / 344.6lbs/ft (Noble RR 04/11/05)
6) As 5, but with remap 406bhp / 355lbs (Noble RR 10/11/05)
Value for money?;
1) £16k-£35k = £21,500 @ 339.6bhp = £63.31 per bhp
2) Emerald ECU £800 @ 35.4bhp = £22.60 per bhp gained
3) Emerald Mapping £240 @ 9.6bhp = £25 per bhp gained
4) Airbox Mod £50 @ 4.6bhp = £10.87 per bhp gained
5) FFD Short Hoses £350 @ 9.4bhp = £37.23 per bhp gained (Replace TVR purple hoses)
6) Mapping Time for Hoses £140 @ 7bhp = £20 per bhp gained
Total cost £1580 for 66 bhp gain at £23.94 per bhp.
How does the car feel at various states of tune?
1) It's a Cerb, it feels great
. Having owned a 4.2 previously I was aware that my 4.5 as std didn't feel particularly quicker, this was proved at Surrey RR where it put out 339bhp and 339lbs/ft torque. On the day it was about middle in the pecking order for 4.5s. Driveability was better than my previous 4.2, but this was probably down to the RR chip that had been fitted by APM 6 months earlier.2) With the Emerald ECU plugged in (using a map from Satmans Cerb) it produced 375bhp and 365lbs/ft, this was literally unplug my MBE ECU and plug in the Emerald ECU, Joolz then spent a few minutes adjusting the fueling so that the car would start from cold and that was it! Driveability wasn't as good but this was to be expected as the map was not set up for my car, however, the performance difference was very noticeable, the car felt significantly quicker and very torquey, I have got to admit I was very impressed, especially as less than an hour earlier my car had put out 339bhp.
3) The Cerb was then sent to Noble Motorsport to have the Emerald ECU mapped specifically to my car, this resulted in a further increase in bhp upto 384.6bhp, but a slight decrease in torque to 353lbs/ft, the main difference was that the driveability of the car was vastly improved, being very smooth at low revs and the hesitancy on changing up a gear from 2nd to 3rd (slight dip in initial power in 3rd) had gone, the car felt strong all the way up the rev range.
4) Airbox Mod. Minor tweaks to the airbox by Joolz at TCS resulted in further gains in bhp/torque, up to 389.2bhp and 356.7lbs/ft torque, although minor they all count, and this mod proves to be the best VFM
.5) Time to replace those haggard looking purple hoses. A few threads had bounced about with people talking about the gains that can be had from shortening the hoses, all of the theories expressed seemed viable, but I was worried about the potential drop in power and torque sub 4k rpm to allow an increase in power and torque above 4k rpm. After running the theories by a couple of "experts" at my work and Joolz at TCS, they came up with what they thought was the best option. Therefore I had some hoses made up and fitted them (piece of cake to fit). I then took the car out for a test drive knowing that a remap is definitely needed, however, the car felt a little bit lazy below 4k rpm, but appeared to really come to life at 4k+rpm (this later revealed itself as a fueling issue), the car felt quicker from a standing start under strong acceleration, but slower to pick up when cruising the motorway at 3-4k rpm, this lead me to think that I was down on torque. This is exactly what the Noble RR result showed, a drop in torque of around 10lbs/ft to 344.6lbs/ft, but an increase in power of around 10bhp to 398.6bhp. Peak torque had moved 600rpm up the rev range to 5368rpm, with bhp moving up 230rpm to 6763rpm. What was noticeable was how smooth the power and torque curves had become, the humps and bumps starting to disappear, however, compared to the longer hoses and even though the short hoses produced more power, the short hose set up without a remap was losing out in both power and torque at quite a few stages within the rev range. The fueling as earlier suggested was very wrong, around 5% upto 4k rpm, and not right from 4k rpm - 7.5krpm, this suggested that once corrected there were improvements to come.
6) The car was then remapped at Nobles to see what potential the short hoses really had, Darren who tuned the car was confident of seeing well inexcess of 400bhp and he was also confident that he could bridge all of the gaps within the rev range versus the longer hoses, and maybe exceed them. The results were excellent. In almost every area within the rev range the short hoses have exceed the power/torque of the longer hoses, with the results now showing 406bhp
and 355lbs/ft of torque. The engine produces 400bhp+ from 6600rpm to 7400rpm. More importantly is that the power and torque curves are incredibly smooth with no humps or bumps in the torque curve in particular, this can only be down to the design of the shorter hoses. The car drives as well as it ever has since the Emerald was installed, with next to no hesitancy from 1.5k rpm and above, and delivery of power is very strong but silky smooth. The car is now as well as it has ever been and probably how it always should have been.......when it left the factory. What's left to do?
1) Linked Decats should see an increase of between 2-5bhp over std decats (£150)
2) Injectors - although I am not yet convinced that they will add more bhp (£400? + fitting)
3) Bespoke Manifolds - should see gains in bhp/torque of 2-5% (£800 + fitting)
4) Bespoke airbox (£600+), like the FFD hoses will require a bit of research and testing.
Not sure whether I'll do any of the above as the car now feels perfect, however, the linked decats will probably be fitted
, plus I wouldn't mind looking into some new manifolds as well as the airbox......work in progress....I'll post the Graphs so that the differences are more apparent.
Stats;
1) 339.6bhp @ 6490rpm / 339lbs/ft @ 4470rpm
2) 375bhp @ 6650rpm / 365lbs/ft @ 4390rpm
3) 384.6bhp @ 6210rpm / 353lbs/ft @ 5013rpm
4) 389.2bhp @ 6533rpm / 356.7lbs/ft @ 4781rpm
5) 398.6bhp @ 6763rpm / 344.6lbs/ft @ 5368rpm
6) 405.6bhp @ 7149rpm / 354.7lbs/ft @ 5285rpm
Summary;
From 339bhp to 406bhp cost £1580 which includes Emerald ECU, airbox mod, remap and FFD Short hoses.
Thanks to Jools at TCS and Darren at Nobles for their time and patience with me....
Graphs as promised;
This graph shows a mapped Emerald unit as per state of tune no.3
This graph shows the Unmapped FFD short hoses (no.5) overlaying the mapped Emerald unit with airbox mod (no.4).
This graph shows the Mapped FFD short hoses (no.6) overlaying the mapped Emerald unit with airbox mod (no.4).
Here's the link - http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
As an add on to this the Hi-Flow Filter at £16.50 has got to be good for 2-4bhp versus a std one, especially on a remapped Cerb, so that's £16.50 @ 2bhp = £8.25 per hp gained.
The Big Bore Exhaust I had made gave me 15-20bhp and would have cost a max of £500 (but they did it me for free), so £500 @ 15bhp = £33.33 per hp gained.
The final mod which I never got around to doing involved repositioning the primary induction pipes, this gave a gain of upto 15bhp, but not sure what the costs would be......wouldn't be a lot though.
Jules.
I didnt use the pulse plates to gain extra top end, but used them to fill in the worst hole in the hp curve to make it smoother. Is nickcc's hp curve the smoothest yet for a cerbera? theyre not cost effective though .. easy to make and fit but hours on the dyno trying to position them for best effect. I spent the time on Nick's car because i knew it was going to be the most powerful cerbie I'd done so really wanted to pull out all the stops.
well I reckon they look like parabola positioned in such a way in the airbox to reflect the pulse way exiting the trumpet and reflect it back.
Completely rev dependant power depending on how far away from the trumpet they are positioned, also a theoretical ability to rob power from other parts of the rev range.
All interesting stuff.
No ones looked into forced induction in the crazy cutting edge of AJP work?
Completely rev dependant power depending on how far away from the trumpet they are positioned, also a theoretical ability to rob power from other parts of the rev range.
All interesting stuff.
No ones looked into forced induction in the crazy cutting edge of AJP work?
Jules,
Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Edited by MackemPete on Friday 30th November 13:38
MackemPete said:
Jules,
Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Pete,Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Edited by MackemPete on Friday 30th November 13:38
Joolz gave me an idea of an alternative type of foam filter (hi-flow), so I had it put into production. Joolz supplies them for £16.50 if he has any in stock.
The airbox mod is a simple one involving inverting the top section of the airbox, this allows a greater surface area of the air fliter to be used in turn increasing air flow, this is more effective on tuned cars.....but it works (another one of Joolz's ideas which quite a few cars have had done).
Hope this helps....
Jules.
Cyclone1 said:
MackemPete said:
Jules,
Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Pete,Where abouts did you get your hi-flow filter from? And what are the airbox mods you mentioned?
Joolz, I got that coolant pipe in the post. Havent had chance to check it out on the car yet, I'll have a look this weekend and let you know. ta Pete
Edited by MackemPete on Friday 30th November 13:38
Joolz gave me an idea of an alternative type of foam filter (hi-flow), so I had it put into production. Joolz supplies them for £16.50 if he has any in stock.
The airbox mod is a simple one involving inverting the top section of the airbox, this allows a greater surface area of the air fliter to be used in turn increasing air flow, this is more effective on tuned cars.....but it works (another one of Joolz's ideas which quite a few cars have had done).
Hope this helps....
Jules.
Mines just come back from TCS so I wonder if Joolz replaced the filter before he did the mapping? I'll have to ask him.
I cant get my head round what you mean by inverting the top of the airbox? Maybe it will make sense when I've got the car infront of me.
Thanks
Pete
I don't know Danny .. the porting on my best red rose car was nothing brilliant, just a tidy up with a carbide cutter and not nicely done at that, but it made 440hp so it was obviously flowing well enough. The std cam peaks at 7k plus with the right mods so I'm not sure you'd wan to extend that further, but there may be gains to be had .. a few people have approached cam grinders but nothing has really become of it.
Jules, it's still making 407bhp (last RR run) so it's totally consistent.
It's gentle around town too. You'd think a fire-breathing monster like this would be a complete arse to drive in traffic but it just isn't. The clutch isn't especially heavy, and it's completely linear in response. The engine picks up very proportionally to the throttle position, and you can creep away or launch it, depending on the situation. There aren't many cars with this much potential that can be driven so easily.
Still scares the bejeezus out of me in the wet though. 400+bhp and fat rear tyres. I just wish I had a place like Dunsfold for the day where I could just experiment with it. Reckon it'd set a decent Top Gear lap in the dry.
The best fun you can have with your clothes on... but I wonder how much fun it'd be driving it naked.
It's gentle around town too. You'd think a fire-breathing monster like this would be a complete arse to drive in traffic but it just isn't. The clutch isn't especially heavy, and it's completely linear in response. The engine picks up very proportionally to the throttle position, and you can creep away or launch it, depending on the situation. There aren't many cars with this much potential that can be driven so easily.
Still scares the bejeezus out of me in the wet though. 400+bhp and fat rear tyres. I just wish I had a place like Dunsfold for the day where I could just experiment with it. Reckon it'd set a decent Top Gear lap in the dry.
The best fun you can have with your clothes on... but I wonder how much fun it'd be driving it naked.
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff