Traction Control
Discussion
I spoke to a motorsport outfit yesterday who are going to spec and quote me for a traction control system.
Anyone here any experience of having fitted this? I understand a couple of people have a Racelogic system. Does this use the original MBE ECU or does that have to be replaced?
Would anyone else be interested? (slight self-interest - might get my price down with more than one order)
Anyone here any experience of having fitted this? I understand a couple of people have a Racelogic system. Does this use the original MBE ECU or does that have to be replaced?
Would anyone else be interested? (slight self-interest - might get my price down with more than one order)
I've done racelogic system on a cerbera before .. it's a bit fiddly seting it all up (I drove down to racelogic because i was running out of time and the owner had booked the car's shipping over to america ..) but once all in and installed it worked really well. Don't let them cajole you into driving it on the road whilst they set it up though, I ended up at right angle to the roundabout we were using and although it wasn't rush hour it certainly wasnt quiet and the builders on the building site next to the roundabout gave a mighty cheer ( asuming I was a numpty who'd just nearly stacked a 35000 pound car lol!) ..
if i were going this route again I'd probably go with traction control built into an ECU though .. we never sorted a misfire on the racelogic'd car until the owner got the car over to america .. a symptom of the racelogic of that time only interfacing with 6 of the 8 injectors and causing a low voltage to the injectors so reducing their injection .. that took a while to sort out! Wiring the rear 2 pairs of injectors in parallel with the racelogic cured the misfire but then instead of one injector cutting at any one time on the rear injectors you had 2 cutting .. I don't know if that ever caused any issues because i never got to drive the car once that was sorted in the states.
The emerald ecu has in-built traction control and there's a cerbera-specific variant to boot so that's how I would do it .. there's probably not much in the cost either way?
If you were going the racelogic route I'd be asking these 2 questions:
does it now have 8 proper injector interfaces
is the operating system easier to manage 'cos I found it a nightmare
if the answer to both is yes then no reason not to go ahead. If you're happy going with the DOS OS then thats not a reason to not use it either, but if it hasnt got 8 separate injector cuts i'd be looking elsewhere, and TC in an engine ECU is more elegant anayway
pros and cons then, that didn't help did it?
PS i'm pretty sure the guys from racelogic post on here from time to time so maybe they will be along to set the record straight regarding the current versions of the kit, as I said, once it was eventually sorted it worked well
if i were going this route again I'd probably go with traction control built into an ECU though .. we never sorted a misfire on the racelogic'd car until the owner got the car over to america .. a symptom of the racelogic of that time only interfacing with 6 of the 8 injectors and causing a low voltage to the injectors so reducing their injection .. that took a while to sort out! Wiring the rear 2 pairs of injectors in parallel with the racelogic cured the misfire but then instead of one injector cutting at any one time on the rear injectors you had 2 cutting .. I don't know if that ever caused any issues because i never got to drive the car once that was sorted in the states.
The emerald ecu has in-built traction control and there's a cerbera-specific variant to boot so that's how I would do it .. there's probably not much in the cost either way?
If you were going the racelogic route I'd be asking these 2 questions:
does it now have 8 proper injector interfaces
is the operating system easier to manage 'cos I found it a nightmare
if the answer to both is yes then no reason not to go ahead. If you're happy going with the DOS OS then thats not a reason to not use it either, but if it hasnt got 8 separate injector cuts i'd be looking elsewhere, and TC in an engine ECU is more elegant anayway
pros and cons then, that didn't help did it?
PS i'm pretty sure the guys from racelogic post on here from time to time so maybe they will be along to set the record straight regarding the current versions of the kit, as I said, once it was eventually sorted it worked well
I've got the Racelogic system - had it for years. Yes the software has improved and yes there is a 8 injector system.
I've looked at a lot of ECU based TC systems and they don't come close in terms of the flexibility/functionality that the RL system offers. They work OK in a straight line or off the line but in corners, the RL system really does come to the fore. The downside is that it does take some understanding to set it up correctly.
I've looked at a lot of ECU based TC systems and they don't come close in terms of the flexibility/functionality that the RL system offers. They work OK in a straight line or off the line but in corners, the RL system really does come to the fore. The downside is that it does take some understanding to set it up correctly.
This is an interesting topic. Could we have a little more info though.
Are both the emerald and Racelogic using injector pulse width to moderate the power, and not ignition?
Furthermore, how are the wheels sensed? Done on monitering rpm or just extra wheel sensors L/R or F/R.
I like these topics
Are both the emerald and Racelogic using injector pulse width to moderate the power, and not ignition?
Furthermore, how are the wheels sensed? Done on monitering rpm or just extra wheel sensors L/R or F/R.
I like these topics
shpub said:
I've got the Racelogic system - had it for years. Yes the software has improved and yes there is a 8 injector system.
I've looked at a lot of ECU based TC systems and they don't come close in terms of the flexibility/functionality that the RL system offers. They work OK in a straight line or off the line but in corners, the RL system really does come to the fore. The downside is that it does take some understanding to set it up correctly.
that's good news I've looked at a lot of ECU based TC systems and they don't come close in terms of the flexibility/functionality that the RL system offers. They work OK in a straight line or off the line but in corners, the RL system really does come to the fore. The downside is that it does take some understanding to set it up correctly.
Yes injector cut is the normal method although RL does support ignition cut (for extra money). RL uses 4 wheel speed sensors which have to be fitted to a TVR and these give individual speeds to the black box. ECUs use a variety of strategies including no sensors at all, 1, 2 or even 3. I have the MBE TC potential on the LS1 Cerbie but it is so limited, it wasn'r worth bothering about. That worked using gear ratios so you had to tell it which gear you were in...
The key point is that you need a reference wheel and a driven wheel which should be the same speed. Any difference indicates wheel spin or similar and so the RL starts cutting injectors until the situation is under control. It uses three levels and these are all programmable as to when they operate and how aggressive they are.
A good TC system understands that not all wheel differences means wheel spin. Going round a corner for example. With one reference wheel how do you know the different rear wheel speeds are due to simply cornering or a loss of traction? How much difference is OK and how much indicates a problem? You also need slip to get the maximum grip. Again this can be programmed into the setup. What thresholds do you want the system to become active? How quickly do you want the system to react?
That is where the RL system really scores. I have configurations that match the tyre's characteristics and for different circuit surfaces. I can dial in different settings on the fly if it starts to rain or dry up. In other words I can decide how the system operates and I haven't seen that level of functionality in any ECU setup. The ECU setups tend to be more launch control than anything else.
The long and the short of it is that a lot of cleverness goes into the wheel speed processing to get a system that is by and large transparent and only needs to come in when required. That clever bit is where the RL system comes into its own.
The key point is that you need a reference wheel and a driven wheel which should be the same speed. Any difference indicates wheel spin or similar and so the RL starts cutting injectors until the situation is under control. It uses three levels and these are all programmable as to when they operate and how aggressive they are.
A good TC system understands that not all wheel differences means wheel spin. Going round a corner for example. With one reference wheel how do you know the different rear wheel speeds are due to simply cornering or a loss of traction? How much difference is OK and how much indicates a problem? You also need slip to get the maximum grip. Again this can be programmed into the setup. What thresholds do you want the system to become active? How quickly do you want the system to react?
That is where the RL system really scores. I have configurations that match the tyre's characteristics and for different circuit surfaces. I can dial in different settings on the fly if it starts to rain or dry up. In other words I can decide how the system operates and I haven't seen that level of functionality in any ECU setup. The ECU setups tend to be more launch control than anything else.
The long and the short of it is that a lot of cleverness goes into the wheel speed processing to get a system that is by and large transparent and only needs to come in when required. That clever bit is where the RL system comes into its own.
Tyre Smoke said:
So how much is this system? Ballpark figs will do.
I'll post the spec & cost I'm quoted. I'll ask for a Racelogic setup quote too.Steve, do I understand that the Racelogic system does just piggyback off of the existing ECU?
The guy I was speaking to didn't have much good to say about Emerald; didn't expand on why though as I got sidetracked into looking at a V12 ferrari engine they were grafting into a Datsun 260Z.
dempsey said:
Steve, do I understand that the Racelogic system does just piggyback off of the existing ECU?
Yes, you splice it into the ECU loom.I've fitted one on my 300zx, but that was easier than the Cerb' because it already has ABS. The racelogic system is great, adjustable slip and launch control, oh and it works. Keeps the 330+ horses of my Zed under control.
However, the Cerb' TC is through your right foot.
Tim
Edited by TT Tim on Monday 3rd December 18:41
Joachim Kleppe in Germany has this fitted to his Cerb and is an RL specialist. Might be worth talking to him about it (email address on www.bornemann-bs.de), he was a very nice guy to talk to when I met him at Rockingham.
Steve.
Steve.
Edited by Steve_T on Wednesday 5th December 01:15
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