Gearbox issues...
Discussion
Having read all the stuff about not naming and shaming companies and not promoting any products im not sure this post is gonna be okay...but I have not been to evil with regards to the companies I mention and I would really like to get some opinions on the oil im using.....so here goes nuthin....lol
For some time now I have been suffering from quite a sticky and notchy gearchange in my esprit. I had the box stripped down by a freind (he is a fully qualified mechanic-works for TVR), and he said their was very little wrong with it. So since then I have been searching for an oil that may help, although I know it cannott cure the problem completley. I tried Castrol, Mobil, Motul, 76, Triple R among many others, and none seemed to make any difference at all. Then the same mate recommended I try an oil he has worked with at TVR. While it needs a longer term test to asess its overall protection capabilities, which Royal Purple UK assure me are exceptional, it has DEFINATLEY made a reasonable improvment to my gearchange.
I will keep you all posted as to the results of my next strip down.....but this time I have a good feeling after so many bad experiences (my poor poor wallet!!!!)
P.S
Have any of you got any opinions on Royal Purple or am I on my own?
Hope thats okay....and hello everybody. My first post. I look forward to getting to know you all.
For some time now I have been suffering from quite a sticky and notchy gearchange in my esprit. I had the box stripped down by a freind (he is a fully qualified mechanic-works for TVR), and he said their was very little wrong with it. So since then I have been searching for an oil that may help, although I know it cannott cure the problem completley. I tried Castrol, Mobil, Motul, 76, Triple R among many others, and none seemed to make any difference at all. Then the same mate recommended I try an oil he has worked with at TVR. While it needs a longer term test to asess its overall protection capabilities, which Royal Purple UK assure me are exceptional, it has DEFINATLEY made a reasonable improvment to my gearchange.
I will keep you all posted as to the results of my next strip down.....but this time I have a good feeling after so many bad experiences (my poor poor wallet!!!!)
P.S
Have any of you got any opinions on Royal Purple or am I on my own?
Hope thats okay....and hello everybody. My first post. I look forward to getting to know you all.
Hi,
There are really five qualities required of a proper gearlube for any gearbox. Some gearboxes, due to design tolerances, materials and alloys used in their construction and application (such as heat environment, amount of HP it has to handle and individual driving habits) may favor one or more of these qualities. These qualities are present in lesser/greater amounts throughout the spectrum of available products. These are:
1. Viscosity - how well does it flow? Compress?
2. Friction Coefficient - How 'slippery' is it?
If Synchros are Brass, less is better, if steel, it
isn't as important, but more is better.
3. Adherence - How well does it adhere to the
surfaces of the parts where they contact other
parts?
4. Heat Tolerance and Stability - Does it
maintain these qualities throughout the operating
temperature range and over many heat cycles
without breaking down?
5. Non-reactive - Is it chemically neutral with
the materials of the internal parts of the gearbox
and seals throughout it's service life?
But, no gearlube is a panacea, or will correct the consequences which result from neglect or abuse. In fact, a number of compromises must be accepted for any gear lube, but especially for gearboxes containing the differential such as the gearboxes of the Esprit. To elaborate, good adhesion and compressibility are desireable for gears and the crownwheel and pinion, you want the lube to provide a layer preventing metal to metal contact. But, these are exactly the qualities you don't want for Syncho, or Balk rings, where they need a certain degree of friction and metal to metal contact to function properly.
Manufacturers' recommendations mean little or nothing except to maintain a warranty. This is because, firstly, they are derived from many factors including broad availability, established relationships w/ certain suppliers, national origin of the product, etc. Often, the lubes selected are the result of satisfying a bid specification by an oil company. I doubt very seriously that Lotus ever did any empirical tests of all the available products to determine the best one, rather, they relied on the assurances of the oil company and the anecdotal evidence of Warranty claims. I doubt Lotus ever conducted any destructive testing on their own. In fact, it's most probable, given their perennial financial woes, that they merely echoed the recommendations of the gearbox manufacturers, Renault and Citroen.
Secondly, these recommendations are made at a point in time and don't take into account adavnces in new products or improvements to existing brands made over time. Remember, the Esprit gearboxes are products of the 1950's and 60's when they were first produced.
The real key to proper operation and longevity of a gearbox and it's components are regular maintainance (lube changes), proper adjustment and driving habits. These will have a much greater effect than whatever lube is used. Royal Purple will probably work just fine under these conditions. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
There are really five qualities required of a proper gearlube for any gearbox. Some gearboxes, due to design tolerances, materials and alloys used in their construction and application (such as heat environment, amount of HP it has to handle and individual driving habits) may favor one or more of these qualities. These qualities are present in lesser/greater amounts throughout the spectrum of available products. These are:
1. Viscosity - how well does it flow? Compress?
2. Friction Coefficient - How 'slippery' is it?
If Synchros are Brass, less is better, if steel, it
isn't as important, but more is better.
3. Adherence - How well does it adhere to the
surfaces of the parts where they contact other
parts?
4. Heat Tolerance and Stability - Does it
maintain these qualities throughout the operating
temperature range and over many heat cycles
without breaking down?
5. Non-reactive - Is it chemically neutral with
the materials of the internal parts of the gearbox
and seals throughout it's service life?
But, no gearlube is a panacea, or will correct the consequences which result from neglect or abuse. In fact, a number of compromises must be accepted for any gear lube, but especially for gearboxes containing the differential such as the gearboxes of the Esprit. To elaborate, good adhesion and compressibility are desireable for gears and the crownwheel and pinion, you want the lube to provide a layer preventing metal to metal contact. But, these are exactly the qualities you don't want for Syncho, or Balk rings, where they need a certain degree of friction and metal to metal contact to function properly.
Manufacturers' recommendations mean little or nothing except to maintain a warranty. This is because, firstly, they are derived from many factors including broad availability, established relationships w/ certain suppliers, national origin of the product, etc. Often, the lubes selected are the result of satisfying a bid specification by an oil company. I doubt very seriously that Lotus ever did any empirical tests of all the available products to determine the best one, rather, they relied on the assurances of the oil company and the anecdotal evidence of Warranty claims. I doubt Lotus ever conducted any destructive testing on their own. In fact, it's most probable, given their perennial financial woes, that they merely echoed the recommendations of the gearbox manufacturers, Renault and Citroen.
Secondly, these recommendations are made at a point in time and don't take into account adavnces in new products or improvements to existing brands made over time. Remember, the Esprit gearboxes are products of the 1950's and 60's when they were first produced.
The real key to proper operation and longevity of a gearbox and it's components are regular maintainance (lube changes), proper adjustment and driving habits. These will have a much greater effect than whatever lube is used. Royal Purple will probably work just fine under these conditions. Happy Motoring! Jim'85TE
Do you have a Renault or Citreon tranny? I've been doing quite a bit of research too. The Lotus spec for my 91SE with Renault tranny calls for Mobil SHC 630 90W. It's straight 90 weight and is at the top of the spectrum for viscosities, whereas the MT90 is at the low end and includes friction modifiers.
I was getting easy shifts with the MT90, but after a month I began noticing rather loud 3rd/4th gear tranny noise... especially when rolling the windows down and driving by the walls of a building. A majority of Esprit owners swear by MT90. I've tried these, in this order in the last year;
Swepco 201 80W90
Redline MT90
Mobil SHC 630 90
I've just been running the SHC for a few days now. My passengers who have heard the noise are convinced it's quieter now, and I've had no neutral-to-reverse gear grinds. But, I'm not convinced yet, so am going to wait for at least 60-100 more miles of driving to let it all settle in... test the shifting smoothness, et al.
I 'have' heard of Royal purple. There is a Lotus shop here in northern California (US) who uses it in the Renault tranny's, but it's not on my test list... also a Ferrari/Lotus dealer who uses the Swepco 80W90 and a very reputable Lotus Esprit service/mechanic in Southern California who calls out the MT90 now.
But, regarding the purple... I figure I could put in 50% Swepco (blue color) and 50% Redline MT90 (red color)... hehe... and I'd get royal purple.
To each his own I guess. Use what works in your gearbox, as long as it is yellow-metal safe. Though, Lotus US has been apparently recommending Mobil 75-90, it isn't yellow-metal (brass) safe, although I've been told that since our brass synchro bushings are 'meant' to wear, in the sense that the soft metal is used for friction to get the synchros up to speed, that they indeed would wear on their own, much sooner than sulphurous content gear oil would attack them and wear them down.
In a search just now, it looks like RP Max Gear is safe on yellow metals.
www.royalmgi.com/max-gear.html
"Max-Gear® also is safe for GL-4 applications or bronze synchro gears."
Are you using the 75W90 in there?
Here's a list of viscosity ranges at temps that I've collected, just for reference. Keep in mind it does not give friction coeficient figures, because there doesn't appear to be a standard for measuring them, based on what I've been told by a few of these manufacturer reps;
In order of Viscosity, low to high;
Red Line MT90 Synthetic
SAE Grade 75W90
Vis @ 100C, cSt 14.7
Vis @ 40C, cSt 89.2
Mobil SHC 75W/90
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 15.1
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 102.
Royal Purple 75W90:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 21.0
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 144.5
Royal Purple 80W90:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 16.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 150.3
Swepco 201 Parafin Based
SAE Grade 80W90
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 15.3
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 151.
Mobil SHC 630 Synthetic <-- Specified in my 91SE owners manual
exclusively:
SAE Grade 90W
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 25.9
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 220.
I guess your across-the-pond manuals call out for the Castrol.
Have fun!
- Mark91SE
I was getting easy shifts with the MT90, but after a month I began noticing rather loud 3rd/4th gear tranny noise... especially when rolling the windows down and driving by the walls of a building. A majority of Esprit owners swear by MT90. I've tried these, in this order in the last year;
Swepco 201 80W90
Redline MT90
Mobil SHC 630 90
I've just been running the SHC for a few days now. My passengers who have heard the noise are convinced it's quieter now, and I've had no neutral-to-reverse gear grinds. But, I'm not convinced yet, so am going to wait for at least 60-100 more miles of driving to let it all settle in... test the shifting smoothness, et al.
I 'have' heard of Royal purple. There is a Lotus shop here in northern California (US) who uses it in the Renault tranny's, but it's not on my test list... also a Ferrari/Lotus dealer who uses the Swepco 80W90 and a very reputable Lotus Esprit service/mechanic in Southern California who calls out the MT90 now.
But, regarding the purple... I figure I could put in 50% Swepco (blue color) and 50% Redline MT90 (red color)... hehe... and I'd get royal purple.
To each his own I guess. Use what works in your gearbox, as long as it is yellow-metal safe. Though, Lotus US has been apparently recommending Mobil 75-90, it isn't yellow-metal (brass) safe, although I've been told that since our brass synchro bushings are 'meant' to wear, in the sense that the soft metal is used for friction to get the synchros up to speed, that they indeed would wear on their own, much sooner than sulphurous content gear oil would attack them and wear them down.
In a search just now, it looks like RP Max Gear is safe on yellow metals.
www.royalmgi.com/max-gear.html
"Max-Gear® also is safe for GL-4 applications or bronze synchro gears."
Are you using the 75W90 in there?
Here's a list of viscosity ranges at temps that I've collected, just for reference. Keep in mind it does not give friction coeficient figures, because there doesn't appear to be a standard for measuring them, based on what I've been told by a few of these manufacturer reps;
In order of Viscosity, low to high;
Red Line MT90 Synthetic
SAE Grade 75W90
Vis @ 100C, cSt 14.7
Vis @ 40C, cSt 89.2
Mobil SHC 75W/90
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 15.1
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 102.
Royal Purple 75W90:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 21.0
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 144.5
Royal Purple 80W90:
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 16.8
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 150.3
Swepco 201 Parafin Based
SAE Grade 80W90
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 15.3
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 151.
Mobil SHC 630 Synthetic <-- Specified in my 91SE owners manual
exclusively:
SAE Grade 90W
Vis @ 100°C, cSt 25.9
Vis @ 40°C, cSt 220.
I guess your across-the-pond manuals call out for the Castrol.
Have fun!
- Mark91SE
Yes it is 75w90
I know my local track (snetterton,UK) have been using Royal Purple and they were extremley impressed with it and they put me onto it. They were running a "supercar experience" down their, with esprit v8's, ferrari 355's,dodge vipers and porche 911's, and the same cars are now running it at silverstone. I did try the red line as well, but although many people use it, I have to admit I didnt notice the smoothness in the gear change that I now have. I have done a few web seaches for Royal Purple since my last post, and all the UK runners only have good things to say. Im gonna leave it in their....watch this space....I have done all the relevent checks with regards to yellow metal as well and its perfectly safe to use. Thanks for taking the time to reply guys.
I know my local track (snetterton,UK) have been using Royal Purple and they were extremley impressed with it and they put me onto it. They were running a "supercar experience" down their, with esprit v8's, ferrari 355's,dodge vipers and porche 911's, and the same cars are now running it at silverstone. I did try the red line as well, but although many people use it, I have to admit I didnt notice the smoothness in the gear change that I now have. I have done a few web seaches for Royal Purple since my last post, and all the UK runners only have good things to say. Im gonna leave it in their....watch this space....I have done all the relevent checks with regards to yellow metal as well and its perfectly safe to use. Thanks for taking the time to reply guys.
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