Supercharging...Can i or can't i
Discussion
Not really a question that has an answer until you've decided what sort of blower you're going to use, where it's going to fit, and how much boost you're going to use. As a minimum, you should expect to add a new ECU (or remap of the existing) to that, coil packs would be sensible imo (getting you mapped ignition, of course) which leads you away from the existing ECU, but means you also need the crank trigger wheel and sensor as well as the blower drive wheel, tensioner system etc. Depending on boost you might need water injection and/or an intercooler, you might need to drop the compression slightly, you might need to uprate the rest of the drive train, brakes and handling, you might find the insurance gets interesting too.
If you're starting from scratch without any real idea what's involved as your question suggests, I suggest you look at the TVR Power solution to get a feel for what's involved. Unless you're coming at this with an engineering background, fitting somebody else's solution is probably more realistic than trying to develope your own.
If you're starting from scratch without any real idea what's involved as your question suggests, I suggest you look at the TVR Power solution to get a feel for what's involved. Unless you're coming at this with an engineering background, fitting somebody else's solution is probably more realistic than trying to develope your own.
TBH, the best advice I have heard regarding this is to swap the engine for a stock 4.6 (there are even some low compression versions that nobody wants). If you want to run higher boost you may need to lower compression further. I don't think a highly tuned TVR engine is the ideal platform for boosting, it just seems ridiculous risking damage to an expensive NA engine to me.
There are nice suitable centrifugal blowers that just bolt on, but bracketry and ducting is quite significant. I cant see that the Lucas unit would perform adequately with such modifications, so massive MA costs or an alternate ECU is a neccessity IMHO.
Dave
There are nice suitable centrifugal blowers that just bolt on, but bracketry and ducting is quite significant. I cant see that the Lucas unit would perform adequately with such modifications, so massive MA costs or an alternate ECU is a neccessity IMHO.
Dave
GreenV8S said:
Not really a question that has an answer until you've decided what sort of blower you're going to use, where it's going to fit, and how much boost you're going to use. As a minimum, you should expect to add a new ECU (or remap of the existing) to that, coil packs would be sensible imo (getting you mapped ignition, of course) which leads you away from the existing ECU, but means you also need the crank trigger wheel and sensor as well as the blower drive wheel, tensioner system etc. Depending on boost you might need water injection and/or an intercooler, you might need to drop the compression slightly, you might need to uprate the rest of the drive train, brakes and handling, you might find the insurance gets interesting too.
If you're starting from scratch without any real idea what's involved as your question suggests, I suggest you look at the TVR Power solution to get a feel for what's involved. Unless you're coming at this with an engineering background, fitting somebody else's solution is probably more realistic than trying to develope your own.
Thank you Guys!, as ever a comprehensive answer for a numpty. I am looking for the right way to go for upping my power, it's either an eventual swap for an LS6 engine and box or tune what i've got in, the s/c looked like the only serious option for giving a usable increase in the existing motor. If I get the Ecu changed in the next few months eg; emerald,megasquirt etc will that be usable on any future engine upgrade/swap? cheers JonIf you're starting from scratch without any real idea what's involved as your question suggests, I suggest you look at the TVR Power solution to get a feel for what's involved. Unless you're coming at this with an engineering background, fitting somebody else's solution is probably more realistic than trying to develope your own.
How much power do you want? I'm getting 525 bhp out of mine at the moment with a Vortech centrifugal blower.
The 500 is not a very strong engine for doing this so boost has to be kept low to preserve the bottom end. Standard camshaft is OK. Compression will need reducing a bit ish but if the boost is low you might get away with it. The real problem area is the injection system. Ditch the AFM. Lucas ECU. Upgrade the pump and injectors. Ideally you also want to ditch the plenum but everything starts to get expensive then.
I would also run with an intercooler or charge cooler of some kind. Fitting all this under the bonnet is also a challenge and the blower mounts need to be substantial. I was using 1/2 to 3/4 inch billet ally for mine.
The 500 is not a very strong engine for doing this so boost has to be kept low to preserve the bottom end. Standard camshaft is OK. Compression will need reducing a bit ish but if the boost is low you might get away with it. The real problem area is the injection system. Ditch the AFM. Lucas ECU. Upgrade the pump and injectors. Ideally you also want to ditch the plenum but everything starts to get expensive then.
I would also run with an intercooler or charge cooler of some kind. Fitting all this under the bonnet is also a challenge and the blower mounts need to be substantial. I was using 1/2 to 3/4 inch billet ally for mine.
shpub said:
How much power do you want? I'm getting 525 bhp out of mine at the moment with a Vortech centrifugal blower.
The 500 is not a very strong engine for doing this so boost has to be kept low to preserve the bottom end. Standard camshaft is OK. Compression will need reducing a bit ish but if the boost is low you might get away with it. The real problem area is the injection system. Ditch the AFM. Lucas ECU. Upgrade the pump and injectors. Ideally you also want to ditch the plenum but everything starts to get expensive then.
I would also run with an intercooler or charge cooler of some kind. Fitting all this under the bonnet is also a challenge and the blower mounts need to be substantial. I was using 1/2 to 3/4 inch billet ally for mine.
Thanks very much For that answer Steve! when we are talking of lowering compression, is it just a case of thicker head gaskets ,or shorter con rods? Why is the engine so weak (or not so strong)is the crank not up to it or is the lack of crossbolting? From my other posting re-motorbike throttle bodies is this the kind of replacement for the plenum you are talking about, or cutting holes into bonnets to breathe through?The 500 is not a very strong engine for doing this so boost has to be kept low to preserve the bottom end. Standard camshaft is OK. Compression will need reducing a bit ish but if the boost is low you might get away with it. The real problem area is the injection system. Ditch the AFM. Lucas ECU. Upgrade the pump and injectors. Ideally you also want to ditch the plenum but everything starts to get expensive then.
I would also run with an intercooler or charge cooler of some kind. Fitting all this under the bonnet is also a challenge and the blower mounts need to be substantial. I was using 1/2 to 3/4 inch billet ally for mine.
Right... the 500 bottom end simply is not the strongest. As the power and torque goes up, it becomes a weak link in the engine and at risk of letting go when the power and torque is applied. Typically not cross bolted either. Again all depends on how much power you want and how much reliability you need.
The issue with the plenum is that it has unequal length inlet tracts which are balanced up using the trumpets. The trumpets cause a lot of issues with the air flow with forced induction so ideally they should be removed... except that the inlet tracts are now unbalanced which means that some cylinders lean out or don't get the right mixture. Recipe for detonation. So either screw up the induction or lean out some cylinders. Not a compelling reason for keeping the original plenum.
You have to use some form of plenum to contain the forced induction. Nothing stopping it feeding a set of throttle bodies with a decent inlet manifold that allows each cylinder to be balanced and treated almost as a seperate unit. Motor bike bodies are not big enough IMHO. I'm using 8 x 50mm Jenveys and that is fine with a John Eales inlet manifold.
As for lowering compression... yes can be done with a head gasket but the way John did it on my engine was to have Omega make a set of custom pistons which were designed to help prevent detonation and lower the compression ratio. Not cheap but very effective. Bigger injectors are essential and an uprated fuel pump as the standard one is very marginal and leaning out can shrapnel the engine. I run two in parallel.
Again it all depends on what power you want. If you want 340-350 then to be honest I would sell the current engine setup and get a John Eales special. Cheaper and more reliable in the long run. You then have the ideal platform to go forward to silly power levels but be warned. The costs do become exponential.
You also need to consider the cooling side as the engine will be chucking out a lot of heat. An intercooler needs to come into the equation as the inlet air temperature can get so high that the ECU has to back off the engine to preserve it. Also means that you need a good ECU not the Lucas one.
The first point is to establish what sort of power you want and will you want to increase it. If so you need to start treating this as a project to get to the end point with intermediate steps otherwise you can spend an absolute shed loads of money and not get very far.
The issue with the plenum is that it has unequal length inlet tracts which are balanced up using the trumpets. The trumpets cause a lot of issues with the air flow with forced induction so ideally they should be removed... except that the inlet tracts are now unbalanced which means that some cylinders lean out or don't get the right mixture. Recipe for detonation. So either screw up the induction or lean out some cylinders. Not a compelling reason for keeping the original plenum.
You have to use some form of plenum to contain the forced induction. Nothing stopping it feeding a set of throttle bodies with a decent inlet manifold that allows each cylinder to be balanced and treated almost as a seperate unit. Motor bike bodies are not big enough IMHO. I'm using 8 x 50mm Jenveys and that is fine with a John Eales inlet manifold.
As for lowering compression... yes can be done with a head gasket but the way John did it on my engine was to have Omega make a set of custom pistons which were designed to help prevent detonation and lower the compression ratio. Not cheap but very effective. Bigger injectors are essential and an uprated fuel pump as the standard one is very marginal and leaning out can shrapnel the engine. I run two in parallel.
Again it all depends on what power you want. If you want 340-350 then to be honest I would sell the current engine setup and get a John Eales special. Cheaper and more reliable in the long run. You then have the ideal platform to go forward to silly power levels but be warned. The costs do become exponential.
You also need to consider the cooling side as the engine will be chucking out a lot of heat. An intercooler needs to come into the equation as the inlet air temperature can get so high that the ECU has to back off the engine to preserve it. Also means that you need a good ECU not the Lucas one.
The first point is to establish what sort of power you want and will you want to increase it. If so you need to start treating this as a project to get to the end point with intermediate steps otherwise you can spend an absolute shed loads of money and not get very far.
shpub said:
Right... the 500 bottom end simply is not the strongest. As the power and torque goes up, it becomes a weak link in the engine and at risk of letting go when the power and torque is applied. Typically not cross bolted either. Again all depends on how much power you want and how much reliability you need.
The issue with the plenum is that it has unequal length inlet tracts which are balanced up using the trumpets. The trumpets cause a lot of issues with the air flow with forced induction so ideally they should be removed... except that the inlet tracts are now unbalanced which means that some cylinders lean out or don't get the right mixture. Recipe for detonation. So either screw up the induction or lean out some cylinders. Not a compelling reason for keeping the original plenum.
You have to use some form of plenum to contain the forced induction. Nothing stopping it feeding a set of throttle bodies with a decent inlet manifold that allows each cylinder to be balanced and treated almost as a seperate unit. Motor bike bodies are not big enough IMHO. I'm using 8 x 50mm Jenveys and that is fine with a John Eales inlet manifold.
As for lowering compression... yes can be done with a head gasket but the way John did it on my engine was to have Omega make a set of custom pistons which were designed to help prevent detonation and lower the compression ratio. Not cheap but very effective. Bigger injectors are essential and an uprated fuel pump as the standard one is very marginal and leaning out can shrapnel the engine. I run two in parallel.
Again it all depends on what power you want. If you want 340-350 then to be honest I would sell the current engine setup and get a John Eales special. Cheaper and more reliable in the long run. You then have the ideal platform to go forward to silly power levels but be warned. The costs do become exponential.
You also need to consider the cooling side as the engine will be chucking out a lot of heat. An intercooler needs to come into the equation as the inlet air temperature can get so high that the ECU has to back off the engine to preserve it. Also means that you need a good ECU not the Lucas one.
The first point is to establish what sort of power you want and will you want to increase it. If so you need to start treating this as a project to get to the end point with intermediate steps otherwise you can spend an absolute shed loads of money and not get very far.
Thank you again Steve! you have covered all the bases there! is the john eales special the swan neck manifold (or are you talking about a completely new engine?) on his web site? Also are these ok going into airboxes similar to the cerbera (Not yours!)or through the bonnet? When you were talking about inlet tract length, is it the same as exhaust where the pipes at the front of the engine have to be made as long as the rear one's to have the same flow distance. I am going down the new ecu route fairly shortly, (one with enough programming headroom to allow better breathing)cheers JonThe issue with the plenum is that it has unequal length inlet tracts which are balanced up using the trumpets. The trumpets cause a lot of issues with the air flow with forced induction so ideally they should be removed... except that the inlet tracts are now unbalanced which means that some cylinders lean out or don't get the right mixture. Recipe for detonation. So either screw up the induction or lean out some cylinders. Not a compelling reason for keeping the original plenum.
You have to use some form of plenum to contain the forced induction. Nothing stopping it feeding a set of throttle bodies with a decent inlet manifold that allows each cylinder to be balanced and treated almost as a seperate unit. Motor bike bodies are not big enough IMHO. I'm using 8 x 50mm Jenveys and that is fine with a John Eales inlet manifold.
As for lowering compression... yes can be done with a head gasket but the way John did it on my engine was to have Omega make a set of custom pistons which were designed to help prevent detonation and lower the compression ratio. Not cheap but very effective. Bigger injectors are essential and an uprated fuel pump as the standard one is very marginal and leaning out can shrapnel the engine. I run two in parallel.
Again it all depends on what power you want. If you want 340-350 then to be honest I would sell the current engine setup and get a John Eales special. Cheaper and more reliable in the long run. You then have the ideal platform to go forward to silly power levels but be warned. The costs do become exponential.
You also need to consider the cooling side as the engine will be chucking out a lot of heat. An intercooler needs to come into the equation as the inlet air temperature can get so high that the ECU has to back off the engine to preserve it. Also means that you need a good ECU not the Lucas one.
The first point is to establish what sort of power you want and will you want to increase it. If so you need to start treating this as a project to get to the end point with intermediate steps otherwise you can spend an absolute shed loads of money and not get very far.
I've turbocharged 4.5 & 5.0 rovers using the standard inlet with 7 psi on 9:1 compression and never had any problems so it works well enough although I accept there may be room for improvement. On a road car that only see's occasional boost the equal lenth inlet tracts should be retained imo.
The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Boosted LS1 said:
I've turbocharged 4.5 & 5.0 rovers using the standard inlet with 7 psi on 9:1 compression and never had any problems so it works well enough although I accept there may be room for improvement. On a road car that only see's occasional boost the equal lenth inlet tracts should be retained imo.
The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Did you ever sort a turbo set up for the Grimaeras (Chimaeffiths?) Mike? I remember some discussion about how the exhaust maifolds might be arranged given the clearance issues but never saw any conclusion?The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Pupp said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I've turbocharged 4.5 & 5.0 rovers using the standard inlet with 7 psi on 9:1 compression and never had any problems so it works well enough although I accept there may be room for improvement. On a road car that only see's occasional boost the equal lenth inlet tracts should be retained imo.
The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Did you ever sort a turbo set up for the Grimaeras (Chimaeffiths?) Mike? I remember some discussion about how the exhaust maifolds might be arranged given the clearance issues but never saw any conclusion?The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Boosted LS1 said:
Pupp said:
Boosted LS1 said:
I've turbocharged 4.5 & 5.0 rovers using the standard inlet with 7 psi on 9:1 compression and never had any problems so it works well enough although I accept there may be room for improvement. On a road car that only see's occasional boost the equal lenth inlet tracts should be retained imo.
The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
Did you ever sort a turbo set up for the Grimaeras (Chimaeffiths?) Mike? I remember some discussion about how the exhaust maifolds might be arranged given the clearance issues but never saw any conclusion?The rover efi needs dumping as said and an emerald or dta would be a suitable mappable replacement.
^ Nope because compression would remain unchanged and the turbo would spool up instantly being of a sensible size to support 5-7 psi and being driven by the exhaust that only a v8 could produce
It's a t3 hybrid. You would have normal atmo performance until about 1800-2000 rpm max when you would achieve full boost. Off boost the engine would be as before so economy would be normal unless you hit the pedal a lot.
It's a t3 hybrid. You would have normal atmo performance until about 1800-2000 rpm max when you would achieve full boost. Off boost the engine would be as before so economy would be normal unless you hit the pedal a lot.Jon.... The real questions to answer are what power do you want and how much budget do you have? The answers really do determine what is economic and the route forward. If you only want 300+ then keep the engine and play with the cam and induction. Beyond that, the 500 bottom end starts to be a problem and then its either upgrade the engine or get a new one. The new one usually is the cheaper/easiest route.
Starting with a 500 with 275 it is relatively straightforward to get to 300-320 with cam and induction changes. Beyond that, ditch the engine. At this point the engine will need bottom end strengthening. Worth selling the engine on and getting a JE 5.2 with bells and whistles and that will allow you routes to 350 ish N/A and more if you want it without going the S/C route and the added complexity and engineering that needs. Especially as it will have the strongest bottom end available and that is key. Add a S/C and that can reach 500+ bhp but then the rest of the car will start breaking. It will start at 350/400 btw so that is another factor to take into account. At 400+ I reckon the only way to get reliability and driveability is to re-engineer the car and that includes transmission. brakes, suspension and everything else.
In my experience, John's bhp figures are very conservative and are dyno figures compared to RR figures which can vary so much.
Also check with your insurers as you may find quite a shock when you mention the supercharger word...
Finally give John a call. A chat with him will really help you decide what options there are.
Starting with a 500 with 275 it is relatively straightforward to get to 300-320 with cam and induction changes. Beyond that, ditch the engine. At this point the engine will need bottom end strengthening. Worth selling the engine on and getting a JE 5.2 with bells and whistles and that will allow you routes to 350 ish N/A and more if you want it without going the S/C route and the added complexity and engineering that needs. Especially as it will have the strongest bottom end available and that is key. Add a S/C and that can reach 500+ bhp but then the rest of the car will start breaking. It will start at 350/400 btw so that is another factor to take into account. At 400+ I reckon the only way to get reliability and driveability is to re-engineer the car and that includes transmission. brakes, suspension and everything else.
In my experience, John's bhp figures are very conservative and are dyno figures compared to RR figures which can vary so much.
Also check with your insurers as you may find quite a shock when you mention the supercharger word...
Finally give John a call. A chat with him will really help you decide what options there are.
shpub said:
Also check with your insurers as you may find quite a shock when you mention the supercharger word...
Not neccesarily:Insurers: A-Plan Ins.
Car: TVR Chimaera 4.0L Supercharged to 275bhp (at the wheels)
Policy Cover: Fully Comp for Me & My Wife (She is policy holder, I'm a named driver)
Other Cover: Drive any other car with the owners permission
Policyholders age: Wife & Me in mid 40's
Overnight location of car: Garaged or Front Drive
Area of residence: Village in West Sussex
Excess: £250 Accidental damage, Fire & Theft
Mileage restriction: 8,000 miles per annum
Full No Claims discount
Premium: £429.00
Tesco, my current insurers were not interested and the same cover for the Chim (as standard) was costing me £398 pa with them. So I switched and for the extra £31 per annum the supercharger conversion is covered.
Talk to them - you never know till you ask.
shpub said:
...But always talk to your insurers before hand to prevent any real big surprises...
Didn't come up against any that were asking 'silly' money - they were either reasonable (£150 to £250 more PA) or weren't interested in quoting at all.There were no cases of (say) £1,000 more PA.
Obviously ask but you might be pleasently surprised - dependent on your age/convictions etc...
I would second Steve's suggestion to sort out the insurance *before* starting the work. Lots of insurers run a mile as soon as you mentioned forced induction or NOS, which means there is far less competition for your business. And make sure that you have an acceptable quote from more than one underwriter, otherwise you could end up in all sorts of trouble if your one affordable underwriter changes their mind. (Getting quotes from different brokers is no good if they're all going to the same underwriter.)
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