I don't get...
Discussion
...how a car can be SO good in the dry and have SO much more grip than my everyday, FWD front-engined car yet be SO much worse in the wet/cold/frost etc. Can someone who is more technically minded than me please explain this? I understand that being mid-engined the Elise can pivot around the middle if it loses grip, but why does this not happen in the dry (unless you are going at a serious speed or are clumsy with the steering)? And why does the fact that the rear rather than front wheels are driven make it more twitchy in the wet? I'd heard of people having wobble moments in the wet at silly low speeds and always thought they were exaggerating until the other day when I had one at what can't have been more than 15MPH, and the corner was tight but not exactly a hairpin. I'm confused! 
Its not so much that the car is crap in the wet (go and watch the Elise Trophy cars running on OA48s in the wet).
The problem is in several areas.
Firstly our roads are covered in crap (diesel/mud/oil etc) that gets lifted out of the tarmac in damp conditions. Strangely you'll probably find your car grips better in truly wet conditions (although not standing water).
Next, the Elise is a light car running on relatively wide tyres. The wide tyres and lack of weight mean that the rubber can't get through the oil/diesel/mud to get a decent 'bite' in the tarmac below.
Cold tyres don't grip very well - an effect exacerbated by a light car. (Think of lightly rubbing your hand across a firm surface - it won't get warm. Now press hard and rub - your hand will warm up!).
A mid-engined car has totally different handling chararistics to anything else on the road. Don't forget the Elise also has a significant rear weight bias. In dry conditions with good traction you won't notice the effects so much but poor conditions will exaggerate incorrect driving technique for this type of car.
Take it easy at the mo. Its very easy to light up the fronts on our diesel Audi and a heavy right foot often has the traction control intervening. Do that in the Elise and you'll get the results you've described. Just take it easy, keep your concentration up and you'll be fine.
The problem is in several areas.
Firstly our roads are covered in crap (diesel/mud/oil etc) that gets lifted out of the tarmac in damp conditions. Strangely you'll probably find your car grips better in truly wet conditions (although not standing water).
Next, the Elise is a light car running on relatively wide tyres. The wide tyres and lack of weight mean that the rubber can't get through the oil/diesel/mud to get a decent 'bite' in the tarmac below.
Cold tyres don't grip very well - an effect exacerbated by a light car. (Think of lightly rubbing your hand across a firm surface - it won't get warm. Now press hard and rub - your hand will warm up!).
A mid-engined car has totally different handling chararistics to anything else on the road. Don't forget the Elise also has a significant rear weight bias. In dry conditions with good traction you won't notice the effects so much but poor conditions will exaggerate incorrect driving technique for this type of car.
Take it easy at the mo. Its very easy to light up the fronts on our diesel Audi and a heavy right foot often has the traction control intervening. Do that in the Elise and you'll get the results you've described. Just take it easy, keep your concentration up and you'll be fine.
Agree very much with Tipper. I love the Elise in the wet/cold. I was drifting out of work the other day through a tight s-bend and roundabout, and the next day a few people asked me where I learned to drive as it looked so controlled. The car is very much the star, it isn't me!
Once you warm the tyres and brakes up, the Elise grips brilliantly. I don't particularly like any car when it has been dry and then begins to rain, but the Elise has immense grip in truly wet conditions. I have never felt a car corner with so much g-force in the wet in my life. I had a Saxo VTS a few years ago and it was good in all conditions. The Elise is in a different league.
Once you warm the tyres and brakes up, the Elise grips brilliantly. I don't particularly like any car when it has been dry and then begins to rain, but the Elise has immense grip in truly wet conditions. I have never felt a car corner with so much g-force in the wet in my life. I had a Saxo VTS a few years ago and it was good in all conditions. The Elise is in a different league.
Bada Bing! said:
Agree very much with Tipper. I love the Elise in the wet/cold. I was drifting out of work the other day through a tight s-bend and roundabout, and the next day a few people asked me where I learned to drive as it looked so controlled. The car is very much the star, it isn't me!
Once you warm the tyres and brakes up, the Elise grips brilliantly. I don't particularly like any car when it has been dry and then begins to rain, but the Elise has immense grip in truly wet conditions. I have never felt a car corner with so much g-force in the wet in my life. I had a Saxo VTS a few years ago and it was good in all conditions. The Elise is in a different league.
are you running a048s ?Once you warm the tyres and brakes up, the Elise grips brilliantly. I don't particularly like any car when it has been dry and then begins to rain, but the Elise has immense grip in truly wet conditions. I have never felt a car corner with so much g-force in the wet in my life. I had a Saxo VTS a few years ago and it was good in all conditions. The Elise is in a different league.
are they nasty then?
picked up mine in the snow in jan last year and drove like an old granny like most of you told me to!
I don't know what the fuss is about. I find it grips amazingly well in the wet considering its weight. Recently had some icy/mud mixture on the back roads and yes it doesn't like that very much (feels like the car is pivotting on the center) but it's not exactly "omg this is so much worse than any other car!"
The problem most people have is that because the car practically begs you to use more right foot at all times (even in the wet), when they give it what it wants and they eventually overstep the limit - they poo their pants and end up in a hedge! Give it 90% of what it asks for and you'll be alright
The problem most people have is that because the car practically begs you to use more right foot at all times (even in the wet), when they give it what it wants and they eventually overstep the limit - they poo their pants and end up in a hedge! Give it 90% of what it asks for and you'll be alright
Edited by NathanE on Saturday 15th December 21:16
It's not that bad in the wet really. The problem is that a lot of people get into trouble with them because they drive them like FWD cars. In a FWD car you can get away with murder. Come out of a wet corner and floor it and you'll spin the wheels and understeer. Do the same in a Mid engined car and you'll get into trouble. A lot of elise writeoffs occur when the owners boot it coming off a roundabout, the rear loses grip, owner panics, lifts off and over corrects and the car goes into the central barrier.
It's the same with any mid engined car or rear engined for that matter. I've had 4 Mid engined cars and the Elise is by far the best at communicating the road conditions. My old Mk1 MR2 was a classic for tail out action!
It's the same with any mid engined car or rear engined for that matter. I've had 4 Mid engined cars and the Elise is by far the best at communicating the road conditions. My old Mk1 MR2 was a classic for tail out action!
Andy T said:
It's not that bad in the wet really. The problem is that a lot of people get into trouble with them because they drive them like FWD cars. In a FWD car you can get away with murder. Come out of a wet corner and floor it and you'll spin the wheels and understeer. Do the same in a Mid engined car and you'll get into trouble.
OK, but what I was interested in was why exactly does this happen? Why technically is a mid-engined RWD setup that much more advantageous in the dry yet makes it worse in the wet (accepting what Tipper said about crud on the road surface). I find that my front engined FWD car grips better and is way more predictable in wet corners than the Elise (I have done a wet Walshy day so am very light with the steering etc.) and I was interested in the mechanics of thatAFAIK, the main and simplest to envisage difference, is between the car being "pulled" around a corner as in FWD rather than being "pushed" as in RWD?
When you overdo the loud pedal in a FWD car while cornering, the wheels spin and the car pulls straight forward into understeer.
The reverse is true of a RWD where the rear wheels spin up and try to overtake the fronts, tipping the car into oversteer.
There may be much more scientific explanations to do with weight distribution etc, but I am sure that these are the basics?
When you overdo the loud pedal in a FWD car while cornering, the wheels spin and the car pulls straight forward into understeer.
The reverse is true of a RWD where the rear wheels spin up and try to overtake the fronts, tipping the car into oversteer.
There may be much more scientific explanations to do with weight distribution etc, but I am sure that these are the basics?
Cino said:
Andy T said:
It's not that bad in the wet really. The problem is that a lot of people get into trouble with them because they drive them like FWD cars. In a FWD car you can get away with murder. Come out of a wet corner and floor it and you'll spin the wheels and understeer. Do the same in a Mid engined car and you'll get into trouble.
OK, but what I was interested in was why exactly does this happen? Why technically is a mid-engined RWD setup that much more advantageous in the dry yet makes it worse in the wet (accepting what Tipper said about crud on the road surface). I find that my front engined FWD car grips better and is way more predictable in wet corners than the Elise (I have done a wet Walshy day so am very light with the steering etc.) and I was interested in the mechanics of thatThats why Mid engined cars are said to be the best layout, because they can change direction very fast and have good balance (neither under or oversteery, if that is a word!)
FWD cars have most of their weight over the front wheels which tends to make them very stable in most conditions i.e they will understeer (go too fast into a corner and all you have to do is lift off a bit and all should be well). But because that weight is further away from the central point (pivot) of the car it's more difficult to change direction.
So basically a mid engined car should be better wet or not. But because of the fact that they are RWD and that they are neutrally balanced, any right foot shennanigans or over enthusiastic wheel sawing won't be damped by that weight out at the extremities. Add to that the Lightness of the Elise and you begin to understand that things can go awry even faster.
Most people who jump into a Mid engined cars just think that they *must* be able to go round corers faster 'cos they're mid engined. They don't always realize that the implications of getting it a bit wrong aren't the same as they are in their Hot Hatch.
Does that make any sense?
crackthatoff said:
just been out for a spin, literally !
lasted half an hour and it felt that dodgy i took her home. 2 hairy moments in 5 mins, nothing drastic really, it is the worst when turning into a corner from standstill usually at some lights, be carefull chappies its greasy out there today !
Gentle, gentle inputs are your friends.lasted half an hour and it felt that dodgy i took her home. 2 hairy moments in 5 mins, nothing drastic really, it is the worst when turning into a corner from standstill usually at some lights, be carefull chappies its greasy out there today !
As stated above, an Elise has a very low moment of inertia because the weight is very centralised. This means the car requires very little force to gain angular momentum... in other words it's very eager to change which way it's pointing... whether you want it to or not.
Elises also have a fairly high power to weight ratio which means you need to use less of the total available power to break traction. The less grip you have, the less the benefit of RWD because the less the weight of the car shifts rearward under acceleration.
Elises also have a fairly high power to weight ratio which means you need to use less of the total available power to break traction. The less grip you have, the less the benefit of RWD because the less the weight of the car shifts rearward under acceleration.
Try a Caterham in the wet! 
I agree with all of the above. What's needed for grip in the wet is narrow tyres and a lot of weight, neither of which the Elise has. The polar moment of inertia is also very small, so it doesn't take much to get the car rotating.
However, I must say, I always thought my Elise had considerably more grip in the wet than any of the cars I've owned before. I also find it quite progressive. It's a standard 111S running on the standard fit Bridgestone tyres from Lotus.
I agree with all of the above. What's needed for grip in the wet is narrow tyres and a lot of weight, neither of which the Elise has. The polar moment of inertia is also very small, so it doesn't take much to get the car rotating.
However, I must say, I always thought my Elise had considerably more grip in the wet than any of the cars I've owned before. I also find it quite progressive. It's a standard 111S running on the standard fit Bridgestone tyres from Lotus.
RobM77 said:
However, I must say, I always thought my Elise had considerably more grip in the wet than any of the cars I've owned before. I also find it quite progressive. It's a standard 111S running on the standard fit Bridgestone tyres from Lotus.
I'd agree with that. But I also think that inexperienced drivers can be fooled into thinking that something like an Elise will always be just as quick in the wet as in the dry. Something you could argue a low powered hot hatch could well be.Andy T said:
RobM77 said:
However, I must say, I always thought my Elise had considerably more grip in the wet than any of the cars I've owned before. I also find it quite progressive. It's a standard 111S running on the standard fit Bridgestone tyres from Lotus.
I'd agree with that. But I also think that inexperienced drivers can be fooled into thinking that something like an Elise will always be just as quick in the wet as in the dry. Something you could argue a low powered hot hatch could well be.
An Elise is considerably more challenging to drive on the limit than a front drive hot hatch (I've owned and tracked both), and when it's wet of course the limit is both lower and breached more suddenly.Edited by RobM77 on Monday 17th December 11:49
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