Police stranding lone female - thoughts?
Discussion
Afternoon chaps - hoping to get some input from your good selves, and hopefully any of the resident BiB, about something that happened to my other half a few days ago.
Scenario: OH is driving up to Scotland from Hampshire on Thursday, on her own, to go see family for a few days. Mid-afternoon she's on the M6 through Cumbria and goes under a bridge with ANPR cameras on, which obviously flag something up because she's pulled over by the Trafpol who direct her to Burton-in-Kendal services.
To paraphrase the ensuing conversation:
OH: Why've i been pulled over?
BiB: Our system is showing that your car doesn't have insurance.
OH: But I've got insurance, it was automatically renewed on the 4th December.
BiB: Ah, sometimes it takes a couple of weeks to show on the systems. Have you got your insurance certificate with you?
OH: No, it hasn't come through yet, December post and all that. I've got my renewal letter with me though.
BiB: Ok, that seems fine - tell you what, we'll just call your insurers to confirm and you can be on your way.
<quick phone call to insurers>
BiB: Right, your insurers say that your insurance hasn't been renewed, so we're going to have to seize your car.
OH: Excuse me?
BiB: You're driving without insurance, so your car is being seized. You might want to take anything out of it that you need.
OH: But what am I supposed to do? I'm in the middle of nowhere and you're taking away my car. (in tears at this point)
BiB: Well, you can try and get a room at the hotel here, then you'll need to get yourself to Kendal tomorrow, sort out insurance - you'll need an actual insurance certificate, not a fax or anything else - come to the police station and present the documents, then get yourself to the impound lot, pay the release fee, and you can get your car back.
OH: But I don't have any money on me - I've got enough for petrol to get to Scotland but that's it, I can't afford a hotel room or anything, and I'm over 200 miles away from anyone who can help.
BiB: Not our problem.
Cue the police having her car put on a flatbed, taken away, and leaving her at a motorway services to fend for herself.
To explain, neither myself nor the OH would knowingly drive without insurance, and she had no reason to believe it had been cancelled - it turned out that this was due to a missed DD payment (we're in the process of switching bank accounts), which we needed to wait until pay had cleared before paying, but had no reason to believe that they had cancelled her insurance because of it. The car is not some chavved-up tacky-mobile but a fastidiously maintained Jeep (we need it to tow, alright?), that the VOSA inspector at the services admitted he couldn't find a single thing wrong with.
In no way are either of us disputing that the police had to take the car; if you're caught driving without insurance that's what happens, irrespective of whether it was intentionally or unknowingly - what made my blood boil was that they stranded a lone female, obviously in distress, at a motorway services in the middle of nowhere, knowing that she didn't have enough money for a hotel room and was miles from anyone she knew, without offering any assistance. At no point did she argue with them, cause any grief, swear at them, anything like that. I know they were just doing their job and again, I'm not arguing with what they had to do in any way, but to leave an upset lone female like that is just plain out of order in my book! A little compassion would have gone a long way.
In the end, I had to sort some money out, book a hotel room over the phone, drive 270 miles up there, managed to sort a new insurance policy out the next day, and thankfully got the car back, but I had to take an unscheduled day off work at no notice to do so.
Any thoughts? I am planning to write to Cumbria's Chief Constable about the way the incident was handled, but thought I'd get your opinions on the situation too.
Scenario: OH is driving up to Scotland from Hampshire on Thursday, on her own, to go see family for a few days. Mid-afternoon she's on the M6 through Cumbria and goes under a bridge with ANPR cameras on, which obviously flag something up because she's pulled over by the Trafpol who direct her to Burton-in-Kendal services.
To paraphrase the ensuing conversation:
OH: Why've i been pulled over?
BiB: Our system is showing that your car doesn't have insurance.
OH: But I've got insurance, it was automatically renewed on the 4th December.
BiB: Ah, sometimes it takes a couple of weeks to show on the systems. Have you got your insurance certificate with you?
OH: No, it hasn't come through yet, December post and all that. I've got my renewal letter with me though.
BiB: Ok, that seems fine - tell you what, we'll just call your insurers to confirm and you can be on your way.
<quick phone call to insurers>
BiB: Right, your insurers say that your insurance hasn't been renewed, so we're going to have to seize your car.
OH: Excuse me?
BiB: You're driving without insurance, so your car is being seized. You might want to take anything out of it that you need.
OH: But what am I supposed to do? I'm in the middle of nowhere and you're taking away my car. (in tears at this point)
BiB: Well, you can try and get a room at the hotel here, then you'll need to get yourself to Kendal tomorrow, sort out insurance - you'll need an actual insurance certificate, not a fax or anything else - come to the police station and present the documents, then get yourself to the impound lot, pay the release fee, and you can get your car back.
OH: But I don't have any money on me - I've got enough for petrol to get to Scotland but that's it, I can't afford a hotel room or anything, and I'm over 200 miles away from anyone who can help.
BiB: Not our problem.
Cue the police having her car put on a flatbed, taken away, and leaving her at a motorway services to fend for herself.
To explain, neither myself nor the OH would knowingly drive without insurance, and she had no reason to believe it had been cancelled - it turned out that this was due to a missed DD payment (we're in the process of switching bank accounts), which we needed to wait until pay had cleared before paying, but had no reason to believe that they had cancelled her insurance because of it. The car is not some chavved-up tacky-mobile but a fastidiously maintained Jeep (we need it to tow, alright?), that the VOSA inspector at the services admitted he couldn't find a single thing wrong with.
In no way are either of us disputing that the police had to take the car; if you're caught driving without insurance that's what happens, irrespective of whether it was intentionally or unknowingly - what made my blood boil was that they stranded a lone female, obviously in distress, at a motorway services in the middle of nowhere, knowing that she didn't have enough money for a hotel room and was miles from anyone she knew, without offering any assistance. At no point did she argue with them, cause any grief, swear at them, anything like that. I know they were just doing their job and again, I'm not arguing with what they had to do in any way, but to leave an upset lone female like that is just plain out of order in my book! A little compassion would have gone a long way.
In the end, I had to sort some money out, book a hotel room over the phone, drive 270 miles up there, managed to sort a new insurance policy out the next day, and thankfully got the car back, but I had to take an unscheduled day off work at no notice to do so.
Any thoughts? I am planning to write to Cumbria's Chief Constable about the way the incident was handled, but thought I'd get your opinions on the situation too.
s into your insurance comapany as well.No insurance.
No car.
I can see it was a horrible situation and I'd feel upset if it was my mother or girlfriend in a similar scenario, but she was driving without insurance.
If they stopped someone else without insurance but decided to let her go because she was a lone female, imagine if that person was involved in an accident your wife on the way home and caused her permanent injuries without any possibility of compensation or damages.
They can't have one rule for chavs in Saxos and another for yummy Mummys in 4x4s.
Rules is rules.
No car.
I can see it was a horrible situation and I'd feel upset if it was my mother or girlfriend in a similar scenario, but she was driving without insurance.
If they stopped someone else without insurance but decided to let her go because she was a lone female, imagine if that person was involved in an accident your wife on the way home and caused her permanent injuries without any possibility of compensation or damages.
They can't have one rule for chavs in Saxos and another for yummy Mummys in 4x4s.
Rules is rules.
Again, I'm not disputing the fact that they had to take the car - I think I mentioned that twice! - what concerned me was their willingness to leave a distressed female on her own at a motorway services in the middle of nowhere to fend for herself when she'd already told them she didn't have the money for a hotel room. The very least they could have done was given her a lift back to Kendal police station where she could have tried to sort things out in safety without worrying if she was going to have to spend the night alone with no-one there to offer advice or assistance.
Edited by gradeAfailure on Sunday 16th December 14:42
Swoxy said:
No insurance.
No car.
I can see it was a horrible situation and I'd feel upset if it was my mother or girlfriend in a similar scenario, but she was driving without insurance.
If they stopped someone else without insurance but decided to let her go because she was a lone female, imagine if that person was involved in an accident your wife on the way home and caused her permanent injuries without any possibility of compensation or damages.
They can't have one rule for chavs in Saxos and another for yummy Mummys in 4x4s.
Rules is rules.
Why are you saying this when he quite clearly stated he agreed with the rules in his post? Read it properly please before replying in such a manner.No car.
I can see it was a horrible situation and I'd feel upset if it was my mother or girlfriend in a similar scenario, but she was driving without insurance.
If they stopped someone else without insurance but decided to let her go because she was a lone female, imagine if that person was involved in an accident your wife on the way home and caused her permanent injuries without any possibility of compensation or damages.
They can't have one rule for chavs in Saxos and another for yummy Mummys in 4x4s.
Rules is rules.
I agree with the OP in that the police could have given her a lift or helped her get to someone she knew, taken her to station with coffee to wait for husband etc. If you show a good attitude towards the police they do generally show you a good attitude. These guys will probably get a bit of a ticking off if you complain.
R
gradeAfailure said:
Again, I'm not disputing the fact that they had to take the car - I think I mentioned that twice! - what concerned me was their willingness to leave a distressed female on her own at a motorway services in the middle of nowhere to fend for herself when she'd already told them she didn't have the money for a hotel room. The very least they could have done was given her a lift back to Kendal police station where she could have tried to sort things out in safety without worrying if she was going to have to spend the night alone with no-one there to offer advice or assistance.
It strikes me as a failure of common decencyEdited by gradeAfailure on Sunday 16th December 14:42
Fort Jefferson said:
If I ever put my wife in this situation, I would be ashamed of myself. And would'nt tell people on a public forum.
It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
Apologies - my other half is my girlfriend, not my wife, I should have made that clear - and although we have a shared account, she sorts out any bills that are her responsibility and I sort out mine. We are insured with different companies due to price differences, and I don't open her mail as a common courtesy unless asked to. Like I said, she/we had no reason to believe that an (unfortunate, but not intended) accidentally missed DD would result in the cancellation of her insurance.It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
Thanks for the comments though, I appreciate your views on the situation.
Fort Jefferson said:
If I ever put my wife in this situation, I would be ashamed of myself. And would'nt tell people on a public forum.
It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
your Insurance company normally writes to remind you af your renewal and mine either encloses a new cover note or says that unless you say otherewise they will assume you are renewing with them.It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
They tend to take the assumptive sale rule and hope that folks are too lazy to shop around.
gradeAfailure said:
OH: No, it hasn't come through yet, December post and all that. I've got my renewal letter with me though.
Not many people seem to realise this, but it's actually an offence to drive if you haven't had the insurance certificate delivered to you.The auto renewal thing seems a bit of a nightmare - there was a post here the other day from someone who rang a few days into his policy to make some changes. Cue much confusion - the call centre monkey saying he didn't have insurance. Turned out it hadn't auto-renewed.
On the specific point the OP raises - don't the Police have a duty of care towards the public? I would have though they ought to ensure that the person has the means to arrange safe passage to their destination.
it isn't the worst place to be stranded, mway services mid-pm, but certainly not great. Was there anything else they could have done?
I'd be upset with them and it's worth complaining as you feel strongly.
Interestingly, could she not have sorted the insurance with the ins co on the phone there and then?
Would they have accepted that?
Bert
I'd be upset with them and it's worth complaining as you feel strongly.
Interestingly, could she not have sorted the insurance with the ins co on the phone there and then?
Would they have accepted that?
Bert
odyssey2200 said:
Fort Jefferson said:
If I ever put my wife in this situation, I would be ashamed of myself. And would'nt tell people on a public forum.
It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
your Insurance company normally writes to remind you af your renewal and mine either encloses a new cover note or says that unless you say otherewise they will assume you are renewing with them.It is your responsability to make sure your car is insured, NOT your insurance company.
They tend to take the assumptive sale rule and hope that folks are too lazy to shop around.
and cover note could have been faxed to the services fax machine perhaps, certainly bib could have suggested this if the OP's other half didn't think of it.Cheers for the thoughts guys - I'd like to say again that this thread is purely about the actions of the BiB at the incident, not the situation regarding the insurance.
I also appreciate that yes, a motorway services isn't the worst place to have been stranded, but this time of year isn't the best for my OH (reason for going home, I won't go into details as I shouldn't need to), and being left on her own with no car and no immediate way of sorting things out was really not what she needed at that point in time.
Contingency - yes, she had money to get to Scotland and full RAC cover should there have been any problem with the car, and a mobile phone of course. Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to keep back £500 or so in the event of something like this unfortunately.
Thankfully we were able to get things sorted, but it was 9 hours before I could get up there to her. Again, I do appreciate that the police had a job to do, and I'm glad that it got flagged up now rather than in the event of an accident, and only resulted in us being a few hundred out of pocket (at Christmas, joy!), rather than thousands, or even hundreds of thousands if there had been an accident involving an injury.
I think I will write to the CC, not in the aim of getting anything out of it, but just so that maybe in future someone else gets a little more assistance and consideration.
ETA: She offered to sort the insurance there and then on the phone with the insurance company, BiB said no can do, not even a faxed cover note would do it - only an actual cover note or insurance certificate presented in person.
I also appreciate that yes, a motorway services isn't the worst place to have been stranded, but this time of year isn't the best for my OH (reason for going home, I won't go into details as I shouldn't need to), and being left on her own with no car and no immediate way of sorting things out was really not what she needed at that point in time.
Contingency - yes, she had money to get to Scotland and full RAC cover should there have been any problem with the car, and a mobile phone of course. Some of us don't have the luxury of being able to keep back £500 or so in the event of something like this unfortunately.
Thankfully we were able to get things sorted, but it was 9 hours before I could get up there to her. Again, I do appreciate that the police had a job to do, and I'm glad that it got flagged up now rather than in the event of an accident, and only resulted in us being a few hundred out of pocket (at Christmas, joy!), rather than thousands, or even hundreds of thousands if there had been an accident involving an injury.
I think I will write to the CC, not in the aim of getting anything out of it, but just so that maybe in future someone else gets a little more assistance and consideration.
ETA: She offered to sort the insurance there and then on the phone with the insurance company, BiB said no can do, not even a faxed cover note would do it - only an actual cover note or insurance certificate presented in person.
Edited by gradeAfailure on Sunday 16th December 15:30
Raffles said:
Why are you saying this when he quite clearly stated he agreed with the rules in his post? Read it properly please before replying in such a manner.
You're right and I apologise 
I disagree with the reliance on ANPR as much as I disagree with uninsured drivers.
I was threatened with having my car impounded several times over a year, sometimes on remote roads, due to the failure of CIS to upload my information to the MID. However I was fortunate enough to be able to talk myself out of it each time and thus the situation never occurred.
If my mother or girlfriend were in a similar scenario I would expect the Police more than anyone to take reasonable care of them, especially considering your girlfriend made it clear to them that she had no money and was extremely far from anyone who could offer assistance. If your girlfriend was made to feel the Police who were present couldn't assist her, who did they expect her to ask for help? A seedy rep overnighting at the Travelodge?
I think you're correct in making a formal complaint and I wish you success in doing so.
Looks like a gradeAfailure on the behalf of the Police.
Edited by Swoxy on Sunday 16th December 15:32
gradeAfailure said:
ETA: She offered to sort the insurance there and then on the phone with the insurance company, BiB said no can do, not even a faxed cover note would do it - only an actual cover note or insurance certificate presented in person.
i have to say i think that is out of order along with not offering a lift to town or similar. after all it appears the OP's OH made it clear she didnt have much money/access to money on her.you ring your insurance company & pay for insurance, they start the insurance at that point - how can it not then be legal to drive?
I believe the police probably followed the guidelines/rules for this sort of operation. I also believe these rules appear wrong/inflexible. best of luck with the complaint, it will hopefully get the rules updated so some common sense will occur.
ETA: some places like dayinsure only do email covernotes you print yourself so how can a faxed copy not be valid?
Edited by Hooli on Sunday 16th December 15:39
I can't see why you think she should be treated differently as a woman with no insurance, compared to a man with no insurance? Should women be treated differently when caught speeding or drink-driving as well?
She was at a well-lit and populated place with many telephones, not a mountain back road. The police have better things to do than provide taxis for people who drive without insurance, intentionally or unintentionally. Sorry if I sound unsympathetic but I've had a woman in a car which was 'accidentally uninsured' run into me a couple of years ago. She assumed she was insured too and wasn't.
She was at a well-lit and populated place with many telephones, not a mountain back road. The police have better things to do than provide taxis for people who drive without insurance, intentionally or unintentionally. Sorry if I sound unsympathetic but I've had a woman in a car which was 'accidentally uninsured' run into me a couple of years ago. She assumed she was insured too and wasn't.
[quote=biglepton]I can't see why you think she should be treated differently as a woman with no insurance, compared to a man with no insurance? Should women be treated differently when caught speeding or drink-driving as well?
What??
Once again the op is not complaining about the punishment!! A lone woman with no money is far more vulnerable than a man.
If you have a partner, ask them for their opinion on what you have just said!?
What??
Once again the op is not complaining about the punishment!! A lone woman with no money is far more vulnerable than a man.
If you have a partner, ask them for their opinion on what you have just said!?
I take it that she is an adult without special needs or mental health issues?
Unfortunate I know, but the police are not obliged to sort out the logistics and individual difficulties of an adult who happens to be in a situation that has been in a difficult situation when they are not affected by the above issues.
You state they suggested she stay in a hotel that was close by and arrange for assistance to help her the following day. I think their duty of care has been fulfilled. They did not just abandon her.
Unfortunate I know, but the police are not obliged to sort out the logistics and individual difficulties of an adult who happens to be in a situation that has been in a difficult situation when they are not affected by the above issues.
You state they suggested she stay in a hotel that was close by and arrange for assistance to help her the following day. I think their duty of care has been fulfilled. They did not just abandon her.
No, no special needs or mental issues - and ok, I accept that "abandon" was a bit of a strong word in this case. However, she was very upset and shaken by the whole situation (she is not given to breaking down at stuff like this, but like I said, this time of year is not a good time for her) so a bit of additional sympathy and assistance above the call of duty would not have gone amiss, and would have gone a long way to repairing the damaged public image that the police seem to be having trouble with these days. I just find it disappointing that the days of people going beyond their duty to help seems to rapidly diminishing, especially when they belong to a body paid for out of taxpayers pockets to keep us safe.
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