A couple more questions for the Emerald install...
Discussion
The Emerald install is coming along pretty nicely now and tonights job was to get rid of the old loom and run the new one through the bulkhead. Its gone pretty well and I now have all the relevant wires in the engine bay and have a big pile of old wires, many with random connectors and dead ends littered throughout so I am glad to be starting afresh. There are a couple of questions I have though for anyone who might know:
1. Purge valve... please explain. In the bible it says that this was only included in cars with cats fitted and captures fuel fumes from somewhere and releases them somehow. I know this is vauge but I don't really understand what it does or why it is only on cat cars. The problem is that it used to be controlled by the ECU and my new one has no related function so it will be controlled no longer. Having said that, my car has no cats so does this mean that I don't need it, in which case, shall I remove it?
2. What is the sensor that screws into the engine just behind the dizzy? It has only one terminal and has a green wire coming out of it, just below and across from the coolant temp sensor. I seem to remember someone once saying that there were two temp sensors... is this the other?
3. Should I worry about the fuel temp sensor mounted in the passenger side fuel rail? The new ECU has no use for it so shall I just disconnect it?
4. Speed transducer. I noticed in the bible that there is a road speed input to the original ECU, can this be equated to a wheel speed sensor? The reason I ask is that the Emerald system can use one or more wheel speed sensors to enable traction control, launch control and other interesting features. Of course I would never use it for traction control but other features may be interesting?
5. Where the hell are the fan relays? I followed the wire from the otter switch which I assume turns the fans on when grounded but I can't seem to trace it further than the back of the engine bay. It doesn't seem to come out in the foot well so I guess it's somewhere in the dashboard. If I can't find it, i'll just run a new wire into the engine bay and connect it to the old otter switch feed but i'd rather have it new and neat.
6. I think I found the old ice light sensor (thermistor) in the 'mouth' - it is two wires that end in a connector about 2 inches long with a small shrink wrapped wire/resistor at the end. Is this the ice light thermistor for deffinate? The bible says it would just be two wires that end in a shrink-wrapped dead end so maybe I have the wrong thing but I can't find anything else!
7. There are a few wires that came from the ECU and go up under the dash board which I can't follow without removing it. None are mentioned on the ECU wiring diagram in the bible and I have all the feeds I need for the new ECU... Are any of them likely to be important?
Sorry for all the questions!
1. Purge valve... please explain. In the bible it says that this was only included in cars with cats fitted and captures fuel fumes from somewhere and releases them somehow. I know this is vauge but I don't really understand what it does or why it is only on cat cars. The problem is that it used to be controlled by the ECU and my new one has no related function so it will be controlled no longer. Having said that, my car has no cats so does this mean that I don't need it, in which case, shall I remove it?
2. What is the sensor that screws into the engine just behind the dizzy? It has only one terminal and has a green wire coming out of it, just below and across from the coolant temp sensor. I seem to remember someone once saying that there were two temp sensors... is this the other?
3. Should I worry about the fuel temp sensor mounted in the passenger side fuel rail? The new ECU has no use for it so shall I just disconnect it?
4. Speed transducer. I noticed in the bible that there is a road speed input to the original ECU, can this be equated to a wheel speed sensor? The reason I ask is that the Emerald system can use one or more wheel speed sensors to enable traction control, launch control and other interesting features. Of course I would never use it for traction control but other features may be interesting?
5. Where the hell are the fan relays? I followed the wire from the otter switch which I assume turns the fans on when grounded but I can't seem to trace it further than the back of the engine bay. It doesn't seem to come out in the foot well so I guess it's somewhere in the dashboard. If I can't find it, i'll just run a new wire into the engine bay and connect it to the old otter switch feed but i'd rather have it new and neat.
6. I think I found the old ice light sensor (thermistor) in the 'mouth' - it is two wires that end in a connector about 2 inches long with a small shrink wrapped wire/resistor at the end. Is this the ice light thermistor for deffinate? The bible says it would just be two wires that end in a shrink-wrapped dead end so maybe I have the wrong thing but I can't find anything else!
7. There are a few wires that came from the ECU and go up under the dash board which I can't follow without removing it. None are mentioned on the ECU wiring diagram in the bible and I have all the feeds I need for the new ECU... Are any of them likely to be important?
Sorry for all the questions!
1. Purge valve. This is part of the carbon cannister, a device to ventilate the fuel system without releasing hazardous gas to the atmosphere. Without it you would need to provide another method of venting the system to prevent build up of a vacuum in the tank.
2. There are three temperature sensors/senders. One on top that feeds the ECU (identical to the fuel tempeature sensor in one of your later points), one beside it with no wire (Land Rover gauge sender unused by TVR) and a third on the horizontal face behind the distributor (used by TVR as the gauge sender).
3. You can leave the fuel temperature sensor in situ, disconnected.
4. The road speed sensor is like a wheel speed sensor, but acts at one point in the drivetrain, not at each indicidual wheel, so it could not be used effectively for traction control. And (at least in some cars) its output is modulated, so it cannot give an accurate road speed.
5. Fan relays should be in the main fuse panel. The wire from the otter switch (green/white IIRC) enters the cabin and joins the main dash loom under the top dash panel at the nearside (roughly at a point directly above the battery. SO you won't find it in the 'injection' loom from the engine bay.
6. Yes, that's the ice warning thermistor.
7. I would think ANY wire coming from the old ECU is important! I wouldn't remove them until I'd positively identified them.
2. There are three temperature sensors/senders. One on top that feeds the ECU (identical to the fuel tempeature sensor in one of your later points), one beside it with no wire (Land Rover gauge sender unused by TVR) and a third on the horizontal face behind the distributor (used by TVR as the gauge sender).
3. You can leave the fuel temperature sensor in situ, disconnected.
4. The road speed sensor is like a wheel speed sensor, but acts at one point in the drivetrain, not at each indicidual wheel, so it could not be used effectively for traction control. And (at least in some cars) its output is modulated, so it cannot give an accurate road speed.
5. Fan relays should be in the main fuse panel. The wire from the otter switch (green/white IIRC) enters the cabin and joins the main dash loom under the top dash panel at the nearside (roughly at a point directly above the battery. SO you won't find it in the 'injection' loom from the engine bay.
6. Yes, that's the ice warning thermistor.
7. I would think ANY wire coming from the old ECU is important! I wouldn't remove them until I'd positively identified them.
The purge valve doesn't vent the tank, the CC does this. The purge valve ( occasionally ) sucks the vapour out of the CC which otherwise would become saturated and subsequently blocked preventing the tank venting.
The green/pink wire to activate the fans is hidden within the long loom that goes into the back of the fuse box. You can either break into the loom or the back of the fusebox. I would go into the fusebox - its well worth checking this for cables 'wearing' anyway and put some padding behind it to stop the cables chaffing on the bodywork.
Dave
The green/pink wire to activate the fans is hidden within the long loom that goes into the back of the fuse box. You can either break into the loom or the back of the fusebox. I would go into the fusebox - its well worth checking this for cables 'wearing' anyway and put some padding behind it to stop the cables chaffing on the bodywork.
Dave
Great thanks guys, re the purge valve... Would it be worth just wiring it to the main relay and have it on whenever the ECU is? Or would some kind of switch be a better idea?
On a slightly different note, I would quite like to change the fuel filter while the car's up. I haven't had a look at it yet but is it just a case of clamping the hose each side of the filter and replacing it or will the tank need to be drained etc?
On a slightly different note, I would quite like to change the fuel filter while the car's up. I haven't had a look at it yet but is it just a case of clamping the hose each side of the filter and replacing it or will the tank need to be drained etc?
If your tank isn't full I wouldn't have thought it is a problem, the pipe is about 2/3 of the way up the tank. Plenty of rags as you release the pressure, or pull the fuel pump connector and crank the engine (fuel relay/fuse disables the injectors, so thats no good). If you feel brave you can check the squirts to see if your injectors aren't leaking 
Smoking not a good idea tho 
Best be prepared, its easy to get at if you have the diff out or the body off - but otherwise!!!
Dave
Smoking not a good idea tho Best be prepared, its easy to get at if you have the diff out or the body off - but otherwise!!!
Dave
thenick said:
Had a look in the software for mention of a purge valve and so far come up with nothing... Any ideas what it might be called? No mention in the manual either!
If you can wait until after New Year, prolly worth giving Karl at Emerald a shout as this must crop up time and again.What are you doing for an idle valve... was looking at the earlier M3D manual yesterday and that seems to indicate our type of stepper motors (ie the four or five wire type) can be supported and driven... I think all the M3D features were carried forward to the K3 so hope that's the case (even if I can just disable the thing after start up).
I think I will give Emerald a ring about the purge valve, i'll run it before then but not for long I wouldn't think. I've just got to finish the injector and sensor wiring today then its time to plug in an test the ECU settings and stuff. If that runs smoothly and everything looks in order then I might even go for start up! Got to go and hunt for some more solder and insulation tape before then though...!
Re the stepper motor, before I checked whether or not our stepper can be supported (I was told it couldn't be), I bought a 2 wire type to use instead from this guy: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
I went round and got it from him yesterday and he's a genuine car nut so was happy doing business with him. They're in good nick and only a 10er as he has a few of them knocking around. Anyway I got one of them and some slightly bigger pipe from the motor factors and am going to mount it inline with the throttle bypass pipe. Then got a shiny plug for the old hole from the motor shop as well. Should work nicely I think!
Re the stepper motor, before I checked whether or not our stepper can be supported (I was told it couldn't be), I bought a 2 wire type to use instead from this guy: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
I went round and got it from him yesterday and he's a genuine car nut so was happy doing business with him. They're in good nick and only a 10er as he has a few of them knocking around. Anyway I got one of them and some slightly bigger pipe from the motor factors and am going to mount it inline with the throttle bypass pipe. Then got a shiny plug for the old hole from the motor shop as well. Should work nicely I think!
thenick said:
Re the stepper motor, before I checked whether or not our stepper can be supported (I was told it couldn't be), I bought a 2 wire type to use instead from this guy: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&am...
I went round and got it from him yesterday and he's a genuine car nut so was happy doing business with him. They're in good nick and only a 10er as he has a few of them knocking around. Anyway I got one of them and some slightly bigger pipe from the motor factors and am going to mount it inline with the throttle bypass pipe. Then got a shiny plug for the old hole from the motor shop as well. Should work nicely I think!
Does that mean I could throw the OEM Lucas jobbie as far as I can into the field over the road then? Sounds like a plan Stan!! I went round and got it from him yesterday and he's a genuine car nut so was happy doing business with him. They're in good nick and only a 10er as he has a few of them knocking around. Anyway I got one of them and some slightly bigger pipe from the motor factors and am going to mount it inline with the throttle bypass pipe. Then got a shiny plug for the old hole from the motor shop as well. Should work nicely I think!
Regarding the purge valve, I would just wire it via the main power relay as its not plumbed into the inlet manifold like modern cars (or is it?) providing its going to be adding anything to the engine intake air, then the car / ECU won't mind.
In modern cars the fuel tank fumes are fed back into the inlet manifold and the ECU compensates for the extra air / petrol.
Potentially the Emerald would cope OK with this providing it wasn't excessive as the idle speed control would sort it out.
Matt
In modern cars the fuel tank fumes are fed back into the inlet manifold and the ECU compensates for the extra air / petrol.
Potentially the Emerald would cope OK with this providing it wasn't excessive as the idle speed control would sort it out.
Matt
350Matt said:
Regarding the purge valve, I would just wire it via the main power relay as its not plumbed into the inlet manifold like modern cars (or is it?)
As standard the purge line is connected into the plenum, so you would need to ensure it was isolated while the engine is off load.GreenV8S said:
350Matt said:
Regarding the purge valve, I would just wire it via the main power relay as its not plumbed into the inlet manifold like modern cars (or is it?)
As standard the purge line is connected into the plenum, so you would need to ensure it was isolated while the engine is off load.Pupp said:
Any reason (apart from emissions) why it can't just vent to atmosphere via a catch tank, witht he plenum port being sealed?
I can think of a couple. You need to pull air through the cannister in order to purge it. Simply leaving it connected to a catch tank won't do anything. No big deal (I don't suppose the extra emissions will bother you or anyone else) but does defeat the purpose of having it. You will also be vulnerable to fuel surge into the catch tank unless you're careful (or lucky) about where you position it.Yes, apparently the CC can become clogged if it is not purged, and presumably stop the tank venting properly. If you replace with a plain tank that may be OK, I have a feeling the Evaporative Emissions are only part of the manufacturers spec ~ but the MOT insisting on sealed fuel caps may suggest its a little more rigid?
Then again, do you want to run the risk of potentially dangerous petrol (particularly vapours) around the front (or back for that matter) of the car?
Dave
Then again, do you want to run the risk of potentially dangerous petrol (particularly vapours) around the front (or back for that matter) of the car?
Dave
GreenV8S said:
Pupp said:
Any reason (apart from emissions) why it can't just vent to atmosphere via a catch tank, witht he plenum port being sealed?
I can think of a couple. You need to pull air through the cannister in order to purge it. Simply leaving it connected to a catch tank won't do anything. No big deal (I don't suppose the extra emissions will bother you or anyone else) but does defeat the purpose of having it. You will also be vulnerable to fuel surge into the catch tank unless you're careful (or lucky) about where you position it.spend said:
Yes, apparently the CC can become clogged if it is not purged, and presumably stop the tank venting properly. If you replace with a plain tank that may be OK, I have a feeling the Evaporative Emissions are only part of the manufacturers spec ~ but the MOT insisting on sealed fuel caps may suggest its a little more rigid?
Then again, do you want to run the risk of potentially dangerous petrol (particularly vapours) around the front (or back for that matter) of the car?
Dave
Fairy nuff Then again, do you want to run the risk of potentially dangerous petrol (particularly vapours) around the front (or back for that matter) of the car?
Dave
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