Dealership obligation to help with car problem?
Discussion
Hi and thank you for looking.
My dilemma is quite simple and no doubt has come up in the past, so I am hoping for some advice, preferably from car dealers or those in the know, so to speak.
I've purchased a car from a dealership, a 55 plate clio. I picked it up on 24.12.07. It is a great car but over the past few days I have realised that I am unable to find a comfortable driving position and am getting quite serious back pain after a short while driving. The car has Recaro seats (factory fit) as it is a Clio Trophy.
Having had various types of car in the past I've never experienced such back pain after such a short time. At the end of a 8hr trip I'd expect to have some discomfort in most reasonably priced cars but we are talking 20 - 30 mins here!
We had a very short test drive, maybe 10 minutes, but I felt the car was right, I liked the deal and the dealership, all the boxes were ticked.
I have spoken to the dealership Sales Manager this morning who said come in and we'll have a chat but in advance of my visit it would be useful to know if, given the circumstances, they have any obligation to help me out or whether I am purely appealing to their goodwill?
What do I want out of this? Well, I recognise that there is nothing wrong with the car as such, but it is 'me' that can't get on with it. Ideally a full refund but I think that is probably inappropriate to ask for given the fact the car is fine. Also, I'd feel bad about them losing the 'sale'.
Would I be unreasonable to request that I swap it for a different car and pay only the balance in the sticker prices? I know some manufacturers have a 30 day exchange programme but sods law Renault don't seem to advertise this.
Of course, worst case scenario for me is that they do nothing more than offer me 'trade' value for the car and I've lost 2k (or whatever) in 4 days, I'll just sell privately if that is the case but it's a whole PITA to do so, and potential buyers may be wary of the fact I've only had the car a week.
My dilemma is quite simple and no doubt has come up in the past, so I am hoping for some advice, preferably from car dealers or those in the know, so to speak.
I've purchased a car from a dealership, a 55 plate clio. I picked it up on 24.12.07. It is a great car but over the past few days I have realised that I am unable to find a comfortable driving position and am getting quite serious back pain after a short while driving. The car has Recaro seats (factory fit) as it is a Clio Trophy.
Having had various types of car in the past I've never experienced such back pain after such a short time. At the end of a 8hr trip I'd expect to have some discomfort in most reasonably priced cars but we are talking 20 - 30 mins here!
We had a very short test drive, maybe 10 minutes, but I felt the car was right, I liked the deal and the dealership, all the boxes were ticked.
I have spoken to the dealership Sales Manager this morning who said come in and we'll have a chat but in advance of my visit it would be useful to know if, given the circumstances, they have any obligation to help me out or whether I am purely appealing to their goodwill?
What do I want out of this? Well, I recognise that there is nothing wrong with the car as such, but it is 'me' that can't get on with it. Ideally a full refund but I think that is probably inappropriate to ask for given the fact the car is fine. Also, I'd feel bad about them losing the 'sale'.
Would I be unreasonable to request that I swap it for a different car and pay only the balance in the sticker prices? I know some manufacturers have a 30 day exchange programme but sods law Renault don't seem to advertise this.
Of course, worst case scenario for me is that they do nothing more than offer me 'trade' value for the car and I've lost 2k (or whatever) in 4 days, I'll just sell privately if that is the case but it's a whole PITA to do so, and potential buyers may be wary of the fact I've only had the car a week.
Civil law isn't my strong point, it would seem there is nothing mechanically wrong with the car so can be classed as fit for purpose. You might be able to get some kind of deal with Renault on seat replacement or see what kind of deal they will do on changing the car. On the money loss side my thoughts would be to get a seat replacement.
Good luck on this one.
Good luck on this one.
Thanks, I will post back later after lunch and let you know how it all goes.
There are some options around seating of course, custom subframes or whatever, but a quicker resolution will be to trade for something else they have 'in network'. It is all down to what deal they'd be prepared to offer I guess.
There are some options around seating of course, custom subframes or whatever, but a quicker resolution will be to trade for something else they have 'in network'. It is all down to what deal they'd be prepared to offer I guess.
i've had friends do similar..... not be able to find a comfortable driving position, went back to the dealers, and traded it in against another car. he did take a hit of a few hundred quid (admin fee i think it was called) and was quite happy with the second car.
ultimately, unless there is something wrong with the seat, the dealers have no obligation towards you, and you are appealing to their good will, but i'd still expect you to lose a bit of money somewhere along the way unless you make a killing selling the car privately.
ultimately, unless there is something wrong with the seat, the dealers have no obligation towards you, and you are appealing to their good will, but i'd still expect you to lose a bit of money somewhere along the way unless you make a killing selling the car privately.
In Law you have no rights to anything. You bought the car, and there is, by your own admission, nothing wrong with it.
You are simply going to have to go in and appeal to their good nature and strike a deal which works for both parties.
Bear in mind that the number of keepers is increased by one, which will affect value.
Expect to take a hot of a few hundred quid, unless perhaps you buy another more expensive car in which case they might give you back what you paid less maybe a couple of hundred.
Sorry, but the Law doesn't help here.
Thanks for the advice, I am no legal expert but the above confirms my thoughts. I am really just after a 'reasonable' resolution; I expect to have to take some kind of hit, and have no problem with this if it is a few hundred quid. At the very least to cover their costs plus a reasonable amount of profit.
Selling the car privately may just break even or lose a couple of hundred if I am very lucky, or lose £500-£750 most likely, based upon what I paid and what private sales seem to be fetching at present. It's in the PH classifieds already!
It's the cost of a few weeks car hire, I've lost a lot more than that on cars in the past!
As for trading the car, the dealer network does contain a few sporty options, some around the same price as the Trophy and some a little more (a 197 looks quite appealing despite the extra cash that would be needed). I know I am comfy in the Civics also (they have a CTR).
Well, I am about to go over there now...
I shall post on my return and let you know what the outcome is.
Selling the car privately may just break even or lose a couple of hundred if I am very lucky, or lose £500-£750 most likely, based upon what I paid and what private sales seem to be fetching at present. It's in the PH classifieds already!
It's the cost of a few weeks car hire, I've lost a lot more than that on cars in the past!
As for trading the car, the dealer network does contain a few sporty options, some around the same price as the Trophy and some a little more (a 197 looks quite appealing despite the extra cash that would be needed). I know I am comfy in the Civics also (they have a CTR).
Well, I am about to go over there now...
I shall post on my return and let you know what the outcome is.
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 10:23
I'm sure if you approach them in the right way then they will be sympathetic.
The 197 is a very good car and the standard seats are excellent, I have a back problem when I drive my company Astra and getting into the 197 helps relieve the problems I have.
I think the Civic would also be a good option to consider.
The 197 is a very good car and the standard seats are excellent, I have a back problem when I drive my company Astra and getting into the 197 helps relieve the problems I have.
I think the Civic would also be a good option to consider.
It's a bit ironic that you get back pain from a car with Recaro seats - is it the position of other controls, or are you very tall / long legs etc?
Try going through the seat positioning techniques:
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/cd/docs_dandt/r...
Click on "posture", then download the "Initial driving position and posture guide"
I have a Merc, but I get wicked back pain (never had it any other car) unless I put a rolled up towel at the base of my back. With that in place I've done 400 mile trips without a twinge.
Try going through the seat positioning techniques:
http://www.lboro.ac.uk/departments/cd/docs_dandt/r...
Click on "posture", then download the "Initial driving position and posture guide"
I have a Merc, but I get wicked back pain (never had it any other car) unless I put a rolled up towel at the base of my back. With that in place I've done 400 mile trips without a twinge.
Before you part with the seats, and especially any money, try a standard Clio 182 / Cup seat. If you CAN get comfy in that, then go onto the Clio owners club and offer a seat-swap...there'll be people who'll pay money to get the recaros for their car. So you get comfy AND a little bit of cash to boot... 
That said, driving position was one of only 2 reasons I didn't go for the 182 Cup or Trophy (the other being the very variable build quality) - not sure why but the Clio is designed for Quasimodo, I think...
That said, driving position was one of only 2 reasons I didn't go for the 182 Cup or Trophy (the other being the very variable build quality) - not sure why but the Clio is designed for Quasimodo, I think...
havoc said:
Before you part with the seats, and especially any money, try a standard Clio 182 / Cup seat. If you CAN get comfy in that, then go onto the Clio owners club and offer a seat-swap...there'll be people who'll pay money to get the recaros for their car. So you get comfy AND a little bit of cash to boot...
That said, driving position was one of only 2 reasons I didn't go for the 182 Cup or Trophy (the other being the very variable build quality) - not sure why but the Clio is designed for Quasimodo, I think...
Irrespective of how well the dealers play ball, you need to ascertain if the replacement car (or seats) are actually any better.That said, driving position was one of only 2 reasons I didn't go for the 182 Cup or Trophy (the other being the very variable build quality) - not sure why but the Clio is designed for Quasimodo, I think...
Just because a car is bigger, or seats less sporty etc. will not necessarily mean your back will be any better.
You need a proper test drive (over a fair distance) to find out. Maybe the dealer will play ball and let you have a long test drive if it means keeping your business.
Seems to me that rather than replace the car, you should be looking at the cause of the back pain.
Is the steering wheel centred on the seat? Is it perpendicular to the seat? Are the pedals at a natural angle so your feet are comfortable? Do your feet rest in a comfortable position around them? Are your knees raised enough (IMO they should always be higher than your bum), are your shoulders still touching the seat back when you drive....etc
A lot of back pain can be caused by problems with the legs and feet.
Is the steering wheel centred on the seat? Is it perpendicular to the seat? Are the pedals at a natural angle so your feet are comfortable? Do your feet rest in a comfortable position around them? Are your knees raised enough (IMO they should always be higher than your bum), are your shoulders still touching the seat back when you drive....etc
A lot of back pain can be caused by problems with the legs and feet.
Well, back again...
The guys at the dealership said that they would 'do what they can' but it would obviously depend on what I was looking at changing for. He said that if the worst came to the worst I would probably be better off selling privately as I did get a pretty good price for it, end of December sale and all that.
Now the Service Mgr there was the previous owner and came out and showed me how he used to have it set up. To be fair his suggestions have helped a bit despite the driving position he set up feeling a little odd at first. He put the seat back further back than I'd have had it and it has solved my lower back issues, although my upper back is not touching the 'wings' of the top of the seatback as per my (obviously wrong) set up.
It certainly isn't a problem with the seats, I think it is the fundamental driving position / ergonomics (or lack of) of the Mk2 Clio.
On the way back on the A roads and dual carriageways I now rest my clutch foot under the pedal rather than on the footrest adjacent to the clutch pedal, that helps considerably but you shouldnt have to do this!
As for my dimensions, 5'10" and 14st, not slim but not huge. I dont have particularly long or short arms or legs (30" leg trousers).
ETA: Tried a couple of lumbar cushions in Halfords and no joy with those either, the effect of having the cushion in place gave me less squab area to sit on and less legroom. Certainly no lack of lumbar support with the Recaros in the correct position.
Well from here I think I will see how I go with it for a few more days, it is only day 4 of ownership and I am otherwise happy with the car, dealers said to give him a call again next week and let me know how things are going although I can foresee there will be a hit of some kind if I go down the swap cars route.
The guys at the dealership said that they would 'do what they can' but it would obviously depend on what I was looking at changing for. He said that if the worst came to the worst I would probably be better off selling privately as I did get a pretty good price for it, end of December sale and all that.
Now the Service Mgr there was the previous owner and came out and showed me how he used to have it set up. To be fair his suggestions have helped a bit despite the driving position he set up feeling a little odd at first. He put the seat back further back than I'd have had it and it has solved my lower back issues, although my upper back is not touching the 'wings' of the top of the seatback as per my (obviously wrong) set up.
It certainly isn't a problem with the seats, I think it is the fundamental driving position / ergonomics (or lack of) of the Mk2 Clio.
On the way back on the A roads and dual carriageways I now rest my clutch foot under the pedal rather than on the footrest adjacent to the clutch pedal, that helps considerably but you shouldnt have to do this!
As for my dimensions, 5'10" and 14st, not slim but not huge. I dont have particularly long or short arms or legs (30" leg trousers).
ETA: Tried a couple of lumbar cushions in Halfords and no joy with those either, the effect of having the cushion in place gave me less squab area to sit on and less legroom. Certainly no lack of lumbar support with the Recaros in the correct position.
Well from here I think I will see how I go with it for a few more days, it is only day 4 of ownership and I am otherwise happy with the car, dealers said to give him a call again next week and let me know how things are going although I can foresee there will be a hit of some kind if I go down the swap cars route.
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 15:20
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 15:30
Roo. said:
As you bought the car from the dealer I assume it doesn't fall into the 'Renault to go' terms and conditions of being a manufacturer (not dealer) registered car which would entitle you to your money back or an exchange.
Alas, no, it was not a one of the direct scheme cars.I'm not up for swapping the seats out really, but if I was to I would keep the recaros and refit them upon resale. I am sure I can pick up a pair of dynamique cloth seats for next to nowt and they will match the rear bench then too!
This is looking to be favourite option at the moment and I am sure they arent going to be much £ as I'm really not bothered by having the half leather, ideally some seats out of a Cup model (fabric but other wise the same as the half leather seats).
A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 18:15
texasjohn said:
This is looking to be favourite option at the moment and I am sure they arent going to be much £ as I'm really not bothered by having the half leather, ideally some seats out of a Cup model (fabric but other wise the same as the half leather seats).
A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
Find one of the Clio forums, I am sure someone will BITE your hand off for the Recaros - you'll probably make a tidy profit!!A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 18:15
Vesuvius 996 said:
texasjohn said:
This is looking to be favourite option at the moment and I am sure they arent going to be much £ as I'm really not bothered by having the half leather, ideally some seats out of a Cup model (fabric but other wise the same as the half leather seats).
A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
Find one of the Clio forums, I am sure someone will BITE your hand off for the Recaros - you'll probably make a tidy profit!!A bit of research may conclude that some of the more mainstream higher spec Clio models had the 'sports style seats' in which case there should be a fair few sets around and about for sale, at a good price.
Cheers for the suggestions again everyone
Edited by texasjohn on Friday 28th December 18:15
Be nigh on impossible to sell I'd have thought for any decent price without them.
If you do change seats put the Recaros in the loft for when you (and you will...) need them!
Edited by MrSimba on Friday 28th December 20:34
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