So really...what would give a Zonda a run for its money?

[TargaFlorio]

Let's assume you'd be looking at a car that's Zonda money or less.

What offers the same sort of balance between raw power and poise/handling?

I'm not saying it's the "BEST CAR EVER" or anything like that...I just very rarely hear the Zonda faulted in any sort of written or broadcast media, so I'm really wondering what's out there that would give a more exciting drive. To each their own, yes, but I want to hear what others have to say...

Also, do any of you think a Ferrari F50 or Jag XJ220 could hold a candle to it, out of curiosity? I thought Top Gear once drag raced the 220 against the Zonda and the 220 won...although yes, a drag race isn't indicative of all things !

[The_Doc]

TargaFlorio said:

I'm not saying it's the "BEST CAR EVER" or anything like that...I just very rarely hear the Zonda faulted in any sort of written or broadcast media,

The problem, in my opinion, is that all objectivity goes out the window with 95% of the motoring press when faced with a £100,000+ car. It's the old problem of being blinded by the sun. The overwhelming feeling is that if it costs that much, then that's what it's worth and the driving experience is fundamentally linked to this.

Also IMHO, this is one of the reasons why Clarkson is great because he's not afraid of calling a crap thing.... crap. (holds breath for tirade of abuse)

Evo Magazine too, if it's rubbish, then they generally tell you that, £10k or £300k

Picture the scene, you're writing for a mag/tv program and you manage to blag a test in a Koeniggs/Lambo/Pag..... are you really going to put your cahones on the block and base the copy on the fact you hated it? Really~?

[traxx]

thought the issue with the XJ220 was that its a great car up until you reach a corner


Depends which Zonda you are looking at but I would have thought the CGT was the natural competitor

Edited by traxx on Monday 31st December 11:12

[TargaFlorio]

Are you saying Clarkson said he hated the Zonda? Was this on Top Gear, or in the Times, or something else...?

And yeah, your point about the press is well-taken. Very true. But that's why I'm asking PH...some of you on this forum may have had experiences with the Zonda and its competitors

Also, isn't the CGT getting a bit tired now? What with the new Skyline just about beating it around the Nur? Surely it's not as involving to drive as the CGT, but does that also mean that the new Skyline can run rings around the Zonda as well? Shocking thought if it's true..

[jonny5]

TargaFlorio said:

Are you saying Clarkson said he hated the Zonda? Was this on Top Gear, or in the Times, or something else...?

And yeah, your point about the press is well-taken. Very true. But that's why I'm asking PH...some of you on this forum may have had experiences with the Zonda and its competitors

Also, isn't the CGT getting a bit tired now? What with the new Skyline just about beating it around the Nur? Surely it's not as involving to drive as the CGT, but does that also mean that the new Skyline can run rings around the Zonda as well? Shocking thought if it's true..

happy new year . no.

[dilbert]

As far as I can tell the likes of Clarkson rarely lifts the bonnet on any car, let alone one he's reviewing. Given that, how would he know the difference between a TVR and a Bugatti beyond the size of the tailslide he can create.

Obviously he knows how many horsepowers he's dealing with. And even he seems to know how many CO2's its got.

I wonder though if he would know the difference between types of track rod end, or perhaps wet vs dry clutch.

Don't get me wrong... I love what Clarkson does, I find it absorbing and entertaining, but I rarely learn very much of any meaning from what he says and does, so personally I think you'd have to find someone with the right background who's actually tried.

With my own "zero direct experience", I'd guess that an Ultima, would do more for me, than a Zonda ever could.

[graeme36s]

Having seen how Top Gear works 1st hand you should never assume that they have an informed opinion about anything. It's good TV and as realistic as eastenders.
Alternative to a Zonda. Modern day for that sought of money Carrera GT or the far cheaper Ford GT. Diablo GT, 993 GT.
XJ220 very quick but you'd need to be looking at sticking some big brakes on it.
Ultima to much of a kit car for me and you can't wind the windows down a must for flicking cigarette ash out.

[DIW35]

TargaFlorio said:

Also, isn't the CGT getting a bit tired now? What with the new Skyline just about beating it around the Nur? Surely it's not as involving to drive as the CGT, but does that also mean that the new Skyline can run rings around the Zonda as well? Shocking thought if it's true..

Always makes me laugh when people say things like that. Firstly, how many people actually drive their car around the 'Ring? I never have, so it makes no difference to me if someone else has a car that is faster than mine around there or any other circuit. Also my abilities aren't even up to driving my car at 8/10ths let alone 10/10ths, so in the real world Mr sales rep in his company Mondeo could probably keep up with me through the twisties.

What driving a Zonda (or any other car of that ilk) will give you, and what can't be matched by your average Japanese/Euro crapbox, is a stunningly good looking car with a matching aural treat, that puts a smile on your face that lasts for ages even after you have stepped out of the car.

Edited by DIW35 on Tuesday 1st January 12:57

[ph123]

Well surely the question is what is this 'run'? A circuit run? A blast over the Alps? Tour of European circuits?
Imho the answer to this really lies with the very few journalists, maybe some owners, who get a chance to run these Supercars side by side.
The lads from Evo, Car and Autocar come to mind. The lads from Topgear you'd ignor for anything other than broad perspectives; none of them are real 'car' people.
Even better when there's a 'group test'.
So my bet is that you have to have a trip which involves some hours in the cars; and then they find a good road section and drive one after the other, hard. It's much more telling when the cars are compared when everyone is knackered because their 'impatience' with any shortcomings are amplified.
And so far as far as I can tell, there's a Premier division which is home to Carrera GT, Enzo, McLaren F1, Veyron and maybe 599; then there's a second division comprising of Zonda, Murcialago, McLaren Merc, GT 40, GT2, maybe the 911 Turbo. Then finally you have the juniors with the GT3RS, Gallardos and 430s which will remove the trousers off any of the seniour divisions if they are caught knapping. Maybe you'd haver a past masters club for F40, XJ220, 959.
Please shoot me down but my take on the Zonda is that it is pure brilliant 'Supercar Theatre' but may not quite have the technical competences found with the very top flight. Is that fair? (I've only driven one once, short distance and absolutely accept the joy that just being in it and making it work. But if I had to chase a really well driven C GT to the Ring and maybe to Italy for a factory visit, it may not ultimately be so securely on top of the job when your driving beyond 8/10ths.)

[graeme36s]

I've never had the pleasure of driving the Zonda. I did however have the opportunity to be given a short blast in a Zonda F, passenger seat only when we visited the Pagani factory last year by one of their test drivers. The Zonda may make some go weak at the knees, the test driver had the same effect on my missus and a mates missus that was with us. They did not even take the opportunity for a spin in the car. (probably because it has no back seats).
My impression was it is a very fast car. Would light the rear tyres up at will in any gear and sideways when you wanted it to be. That said it felt overly stiff on its suspension which will cause traction issues and aid the test drivers party tricks. Three chaps had gone out before so tyres where warm. Again imo I think the Zonda would be quite a handful on a long run and probably not that relaxing a drive if you where pushing. Anyone remember seeing the 5th gear Zonda F blast with Jason Plato. He had quite a big monent in the car whilst giving it a bit of stick where over a bump it lit the rears up and took a bit of catching. Fun to watch though.

[jason srt-10]

BEST CAR IVE EVER HAD!!!

[DIW35]

jason srt-10 said:

BEST CAR IVE EVER HAD!!!

You need to update your profile Jason. I think you'll find that Piaggio make scooters, whilst the Zonda is actually made by Pagani.

Edited by DIW35 on Tuesday 1st January 23:57

[tomtom]

dilbert said:

As far as I can tell the likes of Clarkson rarely lifts the bonnet on any car, let alone one he's reviewing. Given that, how would he know the difference between a TVR and a Bugatti beyond the size of the tailslide he can create.

Obviously he knows how many horsepowers he's dealing with. And even he seems to know how many CO2's its got.

I wonder though if he would know the difference between types of track rod end, or perhaps wet vs dry clutch.

Don't get me wrong... I love what Clarkson does, I find it absorbing and entertaining, but I rarely learn very much of any meaning from what he says and does, so personally I think you'd have to find someone with the right background who's actually tried.

With my own "zero direct experience", I'd guess that an Ultima, would do more for me, than a Zonda ever could.

I wouldn't have thought 90% of the buyers of Zonda-level cars would care about its track rod ends either...

[Obiwonkeyblokey]

DIW35 said:

jason srt-10 said:

BEST CAR IVE EVER HAD!!!

You need to update your profile Jason. I think you'll find that Piaggio make scooters, whilst the Zonda is actually made by Pagani.

Edited by DIW35 on Tuesday 1st January 23:57

Brilliant

[USS Bozeman]

Obiwonkeyblokey said:

DIW35 said:

jason srt-10 said:

BEST CAR IVE EVER HAD!!!

You need to update your profile Jason. I think you'll find that Piaggio make scooters, whilst the Zonda is actually made by Pagani.

Edited by DIW35 on Tuesday 1st January 23:57

Brilliant

Classic

[guydw]

Now I've not owned a Zonda (surprising eh ?) but enough people that I know (who have opinions I value) say that it is an awesome car to drive. Furthermore when you buy a car like that it's not just performance you want - I'm sure that you can get that for a lot less money, especially if (like me) you are never going to drive it anywhere near the limit - you are buying wow factor and the sense of occasion. It's the whole deal, how it drives, how it smells, looks, feels, sounds, the shove in the back, the excitement....

You have to say that the Zonda provides all of that as well as anything out there.

I would think that once you get up to 200k + they're all good cars, they're all special so it's just down to personal preference (just like any other price bracket).

Is a Zonda better than a Veyron ? Would an F40 be more exciting to drive ? Does it feel any more special than an LP640 ? Could you buy a Diablo 6.0l for a lot less and get a similar experience ? Would a Countach provide the same sense of occasion ?

There is no right answer.

On the XJ220 - fabulous looking car, but I think you will find that they had all sorts of problems in the development and ended up with a very different car than was intended. I understand that it can be quite hard to own, expensive to run (even by supercar standards) and just isn't as good as it should be - however this may be bad press, and they can be had for a LOT less money than many lesser cars - maybe it's been overlooked ?

[Jonty99]

The thing about the Zonda, is that it looks like its been designed by a child! It doesn't look like its been designed to be functional, but just more designed to look like a supercar should.

[LongLiveTazio]

guydw said:

On the XJ220 - fabulous looking car, but I think you will find that they had all sorts of problems in the development and ended up with a very different car than was intended. I understand that it can be quite hard to own, expensive to run (even by supercar standards) and just isn't as good as it should be - however this may be bad press, and they can be had for a LOT less money than many lesser cars - maybe it's been overlooked ?

I think it has. As a kid my two favourite supercars were the F40 and XJ220. The former is totally amazing and I'm still in love with it. The XJ220 I've only seen once in the flesh and that was years ago, but to me it's still a great looking car, very swoopy and what a supercar should look like - as if it's going really fast even when it's not moving.

The whole V12/4WD engine debacle killed it before it was even born, even though the V6 is realistically a better engine and why have an unsophisticated, heavy 4WD system? The engine was a lot smaller and lighter yet more powerful - the downside is turbo lag. The brakes were apparently crap but so are the F40's and loads have been upgraded. It's apparently quite easy to extract anything up to 700bhp from an XJ220, which is pretty monstrous, and it somehow managed to achieve an incredibly 'Ring time 'back in the day' if that's your thing; having said that, if you're buying a car based on what it'll do at the 'Ring if you drive on different surfaces 99% of a time you've got a screw loose. Those times mean FA and the GT-R that did the 7:39 was running on cut slicks. If the CGT's (unofficial, don't forget) time of 7:32 (IIRC) was performed on road tyres you could lop off a great deal with dedicated tyres.

I reckon the biggest problem about owning an XJ220 would be its size (servicing is OK, I think, via someone like Don Laws?). It really is a big old beast, especially width. As has been pointed out, though, it's about how the car makes you feel. A 911 Turbo for £110k (or whatever it is) would probably be the quickest cross-country car you could buy, but I'd probably wet myself every morning if I had an XJ220 in the garage. Different strokes for different folks.

[DIW35]

Jonty99 said:

The thing about the Zonda, is that it looks like its been designed by a child! It doesn't look like its been designed to be functional, but just more designed to look like a supercar should.

You need to visit the Pagani factory and speak with Horacio Pagani. The level of commitment that man showed in the design of his car is absolutely awesome. The attention to detail that he gave to even the smallest component is beyond belief. To say that his car doesn't look as if it has been designed to be functional or that it has been designed by a child just displays a monumental level of ignorance on your part about the Zonda and what went into designing and building it.

[traxx]

LongLiveTazio said:

If the CGT's (unofficial, don't forget) time of 7:32 (IIRC) was performed on road tyres you could lop off a great deal with dedicated tyres.

Wasn't it a customers ZondaF with road tyres that recently beat the CGT time with 7.27

Edited by traxx on Wednesday 2nd January 12:55