Historic rallying / racing: Elan or Europa?

[joaovc]

Hi

I want to compete in historic rallying (not off-road) and track racing. I am torn between an Europa and an Elan. I like the looks of the Europa and the mid-engine configuration. But a google search shows that Elans win very consistently and that Europas are always highly modded (eg vauxhall engine) I've seen some people racing Europas and other using Elans (the 60s version of both cars). Unfortunately I cannot afford neither a 26R nor a type 47. Does anyone here ave experience of racing 'normal' elans or europas ? What do you think would be the best choice?

Thanks

[Boggy]

joaovc said:

Hi

I want to compete in historic rallying (not off-road) and track racing. I am torn between an Europa and an Elan. I like the looks of the Europa and the mid-engine configuration. But a google search shows that Elans win very consistently and that Europas are always highly modded (eg vauxhall engine) I've seen some people racing Europas and other using Elans (the 60s version of both cars). Unfortunately I cannot afford neither a 26R nor a type 47. Does anyone here ave experience of racing 'normal' elans or europas ? What do you think would be the best choice?

Thanks

Try the general Lotus forum I think you'll get a better response on there

Also www.seloc.org

Boggy

[Snapper7]

I think that it would depend in what category you enter, I would have thought that the Elan would also be the cheaper car to run.

[bher]

Not a direct answer but so far I haven't seen europa in historic rallies while elan sprint are present and appreciated.

The driving position and size of the cabin are very different. dDd you try a europa for a long trip? I sit once in one and being 187 cm it was a short experience

[speedychrissie]

my dad has two classic elans that he races and he is very competitive in them. europas do race but there seem to be fewer of them and i think you are right that they do tend to have to be very highly modified to be competitive.

it would be worth going to a race meeting and having a chat with the respective owners of both cars (also with the different ranges of specification) to see where you would like to go. i know of a couple of elan owners who actually drive their cars to the racetrack and then drive them home, but it does mean that there has to be a compromise on the setup. whereas my dads elans are cars that you really wouldnt want to drive for very long on the road out of choice.

[Christian43]

I think you would be better of going for the Elan as the aerodynamics were much better. In the books for the time they said that even with 25hp more the Europa type 47 was still slower than the other cars around. I think Chapman pushed the type 47 so hard to sell the Europa road car. I guess also with people racing the Elan there are more likely to be helpful comments available on setup and more parts for sale.
Sounds fun, I would love to race either..

[Sam_68]

It will depend on the class rules, but you would certainly be making life difficult for yourself if you went for the Europa. The gearbox of the standard cars is not very well suited to racing, in terms of ratios, strength or gearchange quality. Even standard parts are getting scarce for the Europa and there are far more off-the-shelf tuning solutions available for the Elan. Also, Twin Cam Europas in decent condition are getting very expensive and thin on the ground (most have been shipped off to Japan, where they have a cult following).
The Twin Cam Europa wasn't introduced until the 1970's, so you might find that it limits your available classes... the Renault engined cars are nothing like as quick as a tuned Twin Cam Elan/Europa.

In terms of handling, the Europa is theoretically capable of slightly better cornering, but in practice any advantage is wiped out by the fact that the rear suspension, in particular, must be set-up absolutely spot on or else the car behaves more like a Tesco's trolley with a wobbly castor. Most people don't feel as comfortable driving the Europa due to the restricted visibility, either.

If you have a clear idea of what sort of competition you are interested in, try asking Richard Winter about recommendations for the Europa and Tony Thompson Racing, Kelvedon Motors and Paul Matty Sportscars about the prospects for the Elan. You might also wish to take a browse through the competition forum on LotusElan.net

Europas have had some sucess in hillclimbing and Roadsports circuit racing, but the Elan definitely has the best track record (pardon the pun).

Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 3rd January 18:13

[Sam_68]

Christian43 said:

I think you would be better of going for the Elan as the aerodynamics were much better. In the books for the time they said that even with 25hp more the Europa type 47 was still slower than the other cars around...

Not sure I agree with this. Certainly, the Type 47 was slower than the competition, but then it was up against cars that were much more purpose-built for racing because, as you say, Chapman was using it to promote sales of the road car.

Compared to an Elan, the Europa is much better aerodynamically; I think where it loses out is on rear suspension design and gearbox.

...and it never benefitted anything like as much development as the Elan did. Success tends to breed success, in racing.

Edited by Sam_68 on Thursday 3rd January 22:00

[joaovc]

Thanks for the helpful replies guys. I guess it's the elan then :-)

[S Works]

What a fabulous conundrum to have. Come back and let us know what you buy, and tell us about your races when you enter

[AlpineAndy]

Sam_68 said:

It will depend on the class rules, but you would certainly be making life difficult for yourself if you went for the Europa. The gearbox of the standard cars is not very well suited to racing, in terms of ratios, strength or gearchange quality. Even standard parts are getting scarce for the Europa and there are far more off-the-shelf tuning solutions available for the Elan. ....The Twin Cam Europa wasn't introduced until the 1970's, so you might find that it limits your available classes... the Renault engined cars are nothing like as quick as a tuned Twin Cam Elan/Europa.

Funnily enough, it's the same gearbox that's used in the A110 Alpine (although turned 180) which didn't do to badly at rallying with it.

Concerning the engine, it does indeed depend upon the class. Without spending a fortune (certainly less than the purchase price difference between a twin cam car and a renault engined car) the renault engine can be tuned to be better than the standard twin cam engine (it was in the 1600 A110 Alpine after all), plus it's lighter than the ford. However the Twink is much more easily and cheaply tuned for over 150 bhp.

The renault engine is quite well catered for by the Alpine specialists abroad.

Having said all this, if you're over 5ft 6in tall then you may not fit behind the wheel of a europa with a bash hat on.

Oh, and the Elan is a fabulous car!

Edited by AlpineAndy on Saturday 5th January 21:43

[Sam_68]

AlpineAndy said:

Sam_68 said:

...The gearbox of the standard cars is not very well suited to racing, in terms of ratios, strength or gearchange quality....

Funnily enough, it's the same gearbox that's used in the A110 Alpine (although turned 180) which didn't do to badly at rallying with it.

No it's not!

Read carefully what I wrote, particularly the words 'standard', 'ratios', 'strength' and 'gearchange quality'.

All but the earliest, lowest powered versions of the A110 use a 5-speed variant of the gearbox, in a unique casing (stiffer, with pick up points for the Alpine's rear suspension), with different ratios.

The Renault engined Europas use 4 speed gearboxes. Only the rare, Big-Valve Twin Cam Europa Specials used 5 speed boxes, and then with completely different ratios to the A110 (for example an overdriven 0.87:1 top gear compared to the Alpine's usual, slightly underdriven 1.03:1 top).

Of course, it's the fact that the Europa gearbox is turned through 180 degrees, necessitating a long rod linkage, that results in the lousy gearchange quality.

...and the supply of gearbox components is one of the major bugbears of the Alpine these days, as I'm sure you're aware, whereas you can get pretty much whatever ratios and final drive you want, off the shelf, for the Elan box from people like Quaife.

The Renault engine can certainly be tuned for quite high power, but it's nowhere near as torquey or tractable as the Twin Cam when you do. My roadgoing Elan produces approx. 145bhp, with the help of modern QED cam profiles, and is better mannered than the standard 126bhp Big-Valve Twincam was when new (in fact it makes a 'modern' 16-valve K-series of similar power output seem gutless by comparison)! Race Twincams can easily produce 180bhp and are only slightly less tractable. The Renault engine isn't nearly as well mannered or torquey at those levels of tune.

[AlpineAndy]

Sam_68 said:

No it's not!
............Quaife.

Actually most A110s came from the factory with 4 speed boxes because it's a stronger box (many change to a 5 speed box but it's not viewed as an upgrade by those that know unless they've gone for the rare 'big box'), and I certainly wouldn't argue with you about the quality of the change on a europa (which is why I didn't mention it before). Also it isn't a unique casing. Parts are available (standard and upgraded, but they are expensive, mostly very expensive!).

Sam_68 said:

The Renault engine ...... The Renault engine isn't nearly as well mannered or torquey at those levels of tune.

I did say 'standard twink' and agreed that it's easier and cheaper to tune a twink. Also if you do want to throw money at both engines the twink does ultimately produce notably more power, but a 145bhp renault motor is neither badly mannered or lacking in torque (and isn't very expensive either). That doesn't happen until you get around 175bhp.

Most of the classic mags recent road tests have been comparisons with europas (renault and twinks) and they all make reference to the 1600 A110s as having really responsive engines. The price difference between a standard twink and a standard renault leave more than enough spare to upgrade to standard twink levels and fit a 5 speed box if you really want one

[Sam_68]

AlpineAndy said:

Actually most A110s came from the factory with 4 speed boxes...also it isn't a unique casing.

What is your source for this information? Everything I have come across (from multiple and diverse sources) suggests that the 5 speed box was far more common and incorporated pick-ups on the casing for the Alpine's swing axles. And the ratios I've seen listed for the Alpine are certainly different from those quoted for the Europa.

For what it's worth, the 'standard' ratios I have seen quoted are:

Europa
1st: 3.61
2nd: 2.26
3rd: 1.48
4th: 1.03
Final drive: 3.56

Europa Special
1st: 3.62
2nd: 2.33
3rd: 1.60
4th: 1.21
5th: 0.87
Final drive: 3.77

Alpine A110
1st: 3.61
2nd: 2.36
3rd: 1.69
4th: 1.29
5th: 1.03
Final drive:4.125 (1300)/3.375(1600)

Note that 5th in the Alpine is the same as top gear on the 4-speed Europa, whereas the 5-speed Europa box has an overdriven top gear combined with a tall final drive; the reason that Lotus didn't use the 5 speed box until the Special is that the torque of the Twin Cam engine would kill it... it wasn't until Renault beefed up the 5 speed for the 1600 Renault 16TX that they deemed it strong enough for even a standard Big Valve Twin Cam. If you tried fitting an earlier 5 speed to a Twin Cam Lotus with the shorter final drive ratios used by Alpine, the Twink would chew it up and spit it out in no time flat!

If class rules allow non-standard gearboxes, of course, there would be no point in considering the Alpine ratios anyway; you might as well do what Lotus did with the 47 and fit a decent gearbox in the form of a Hewland Type 9.

Having driven both a mildly tuned (original 1470cc engine with cam and carb mods; circa 95bhp) Renault engined Europa owned by a friend and various Twin Cam engined cars in everything from standard to full race tune, I can tell you that there's simply no comparison... the Twin Cam is much torquier in all forms and, obviously, much more powerful even in standard tune (standard Europa Renault = 82bhp; Lotus Twin Cam = 105 - 126bhp, depending on model).

I note that even your own profile admits that your A110 is 'a little lacking in the grunt department?!

Edited by Sam_68 on Sunday 6th January 02:28

[AlpineAndy]

Hi, I’ve just got back from a trip and rather surprised myself when I saw I’d posted on 6th. I must appologise to everyone for posting when completely legless. Although reading it jogged my memory a bit, I still don’t remember doing it….. (but I am rather pleased with the grammar).
If It makes anyone feel better, I felt like 5h*t as we took off around 7 on Sunday morning…

I also have to appologise to Joaovc and Sam68 as 5 minutes research has shown me that the Europa used the 336 box rather than the 364 box I’d thought it used. See www.syer.net.donor_cars.htm

I’ll do a ‘proper’ post answering some of sam68s points when I can think straight…
Cheers

[m44ttg]

joaovc:
The 2007 SMRC Scottish Classic Sports class had regular attendence from 3 Elans and a Europa.
Pics here: http://www.thegrid.co.uk/New%20Gallery/Galleryscot...