What is the point in sessioned days?
Discussion
I've been wondering this for a while, and had always assumed it allows organisers to put more cars on a day. However, talking to an organiser it is apparent that this isn't actually the case since most fill to the circuit limit.
The downsides are obvious :
- everyone leaves the pits in a gaggle and you can have a horror for the first 10 minutes whilst everyone tries to get into a sensible order of speed. This has to be the absolute worst aspect as it encourages a lack of sensible spacing on track, sensible overtaking and causes stressed punters.
- if there are lots of red flags you can end up with sod all track time at all as there is no flexibility.
- most people end up spending more time on track, whereas with an open pitlane even the most hardcore are unlikely to spend 30 mins on/30 mins off.
- grouping into ability or pace for session doesn't work, and in the end commerical concerns override this ideal were it even viable in the first place.
- you can't miss a session without having to wait a total 1.5 hours of no track time.
- if your friends are in the opposite session you don't see them all day.
So whats the upside? Honestly I can't see it?
FWIW I avoid sessioned days for all these reasons (which is annoying I want to do silverstone!). I know of people who book into both sessions to avoid this, but frankly thats out of budget for me, for what is effectively an open pitlane with an annoying interuption every 30 mins.
1 said:
The point is to separate people based on ability/experience, so those with a wee bit of talent are not constantly tripping over the novices.
Have we not already established that doesn't work? You don't need to be a novice to be slow, you could just be in a slow car. Or you could be fast but put in the novice session because the advanced is full. In fact if its open pit, you trip over far fewer people full stop!Goldtrack, if you are reading this and do an openpit silverstone day I'll come! Go on try it, you might find it works better.
Open Pit seems to work well. Separating experienced from novice doesn't really work does it? As, anyone goon can select that he thinks he is an expert and should be in the advanced group, when in truth he can't drive at all.
It would very interesting to see what Melindi had to say on this, is there any particular reason for having it seasoned?
It would very interesting to see what Melindi had to say on this, is there any particular reason for having it seasoned?
Edited by Sean Edwards on Tuesday 22 January 11:48
A typical trackday....what, 40 cars?
How many would go out at the first green light on an open pit lane? Erm....40?
The first green light of a sessioned day, how many would go out? Let me see, if my maths are right, errm....say 20?
Which 'pack' would you rather follow?
I saw Gold Tracks last Brands day (20th) and the formula seemed to work very well indeed.
You are forced to take a break, consider your last session and check your car over whilst you prepare for the next one.
That's enough reason I would think.
How many would go out at the first green light on an open pit lane? Erm....40?
The first green light of a sessioned day, how many would go out? Let me see, if my maths are right, errm....say 20?
Which 'pack' would you rather follow?
I saw Gold Tracks last Brands day (20th) and the formula seemed to work very well indeed.
You are forced to take a break, consider your last session and check your car over whilst you prepare for the next one.
That's enough reason I would think.
even if the theory of sessioned days works the track day organisers blow it because they take bookings for organised experience day cars where they are run in each session and some of these cars have novice or beginners drivers and they have no choice but to run these guys in the most experience group. Then as the organised experince cars are trying to make their client have a god day they stay on the racing line for far to long
Id be happy with OPL days only as te sessioned days i have exeprienced (Donny and Snetterton) were the worst track days i have ben on.
Id be happy with OPL days only as te sessioned days i have exeprienced (Donny and Snetterton) were the worst track days i have ben on.
jleroux said:
mgv8dave said:
what is the Point ...... No Point
Dave
It worries me that you're purporting to be a track day organiser and yet you can't see the point of sessioned track days!Dave
Jonny
BaT
And it bring us back to who would say what your group is for the day .
Dave
Edited by mgv8dave on Tuesday 22 January 09:20
Sessioned trackdays give beginners some confidence that they aren't going to be harrassed by much faster drivers. Whether this is reality or not is immaterial - it is about the perception the beginners have and allows them onto track with less fear of intimidation. Likewise faster drivers who maybe still don't have lots of experience can go in a faster group and will feel more comfortable that it is unlikely they will find slow erratic drivers on the track.
If you want space on a sessioned trackday then simply start at the back and have a very slow first lap - then you have all the track in front of you. If you are a driving god then start at the front and leave everyone in your wake!
OPL has disadvantages for fast drivers/cars and slow drivers/cars. Fast drivers will often catch slower drivers and have their fast lap interrupted. This can also lead frustrated drivers into marginal overtakes sometimes without consent. Slow drivers find they have to pull over a lot which again can stop them getting a good clean lap in. A marginal overtake by another driver can make them nervous.
A final point is that when a car is shared by 2 drivers of differing abilities in an OPL scenario people can make incorrect assumptions about the drivers ability which could lead to a dangerous situation.
Having said all that I enjoy OPL days as they do give you freedom to go out when you like, do shorter or longer sessions as you feel and also share a car and still give it a rest between drives. At the end of the day some people prefer OPL and others prefer sessions - live and let live!
If you want space on a sessioned trackday then simply start at the back and have a very slow first lap - then you have all the track in front of you. If you are a driving god then start at the front and leave everyone in your wake!
OPL has disadvantages for fast drivers/cars and slow drivers/cars. Fast drivers will often catch slower drivers and have their fast lap interrupted. This can also lead frustrated drivers into marginal overtakes sometimes without consent. Slow drivers find they have to pull over a lot which again can stop them getting a good clean lap in. A marginal overtake by another driver can make them nervous.
A final point is that when a car is shared by 2 drivers of differing abilities in an OPL scenario people can make incorrect assumptions about the drivers ability which could lead to a dangerous situation.
Having said all that I enjoy OPL days as they do give you freedom to go out when you like, do shorter or longer sessions as you feel and also share a car and still give it a rest between drives. At the end of the day some people prefer OPL and others prefer sessions - live and let live!
LuckyP said:
A typical trackday....what, 40 cars?
How many would go out at the first green light on an open pit lane? Erm....40?
The first green light of a sessioned day, how many would go out? Let me see, if my maths are right, errm....say 20?
That isn't how it works. Say you are at Bedford, they have a circuit limit of 60 off the top of my head. If its open pit they count cars in and out so if you wall rush at once then you have to wait a bit. In reality this almost never happens except for after lunch. Were it sessioned then the sessions would be of 60 people each, so every single time a session starts you get the rush and cramping. On open pit lane days, the track is seldom at its limit, on sessioned days it nearly always is.How many would go out at the first green light on an open pit lane? Erm....40?
The first green light of a sessioned day, how many would go out? Let me see, if my maths are right, errm....say 20?
To the person suggesting doing a slow outlap, it doesn't work as you eventually catch up with pockets of bunching that can take 15 mins to work themselves out.
Also Sean raises a very good point. The people who self select that they are advanced aren't necessarily what an impartial observer would consider to be a good trackday driver. Its a well known fact that the more competent someone is, the more they tend to underestimate their own ability. After all, they are aware of what they can't do. It's the halfwits who don't understand the problem who assume they are better than they are!
So Jonny, explain your reasoning and tell us how you see it working in practise rather than giving us empty 1 liners of hyperbole. I'd love to know what the upside is as I really haven't seen one.
At the risk of turning this into an advert for BaT - here's my 2p worth :-)
Firstly, there are a number of reasons (finances aside) why a TDO would want to run 3 or 4 sessioned events.
Splitting people of differing abilities/experience is (IMO) the number 1 reason. As has already been mentioned - keeping complete novices away from (the sometimes impatient :-P) track day warriors. Sure, outright speed is the obvious way to do this and generally the novice session will be lapping slower than the advanced session - but speed is not what's important as i've already tried to point out earlier in the thread.
Second reason is to ensure consistency of traffic. What I mean by that is that you're only ever going to be encountering a smaller number of different cars - so you're much more likely to become aware of that cars driving style, performance and observation.
Another advantage to sessioned events is that they are generally (and statistically in BaT's case) much safer - both in terms of stoppages and crash damage. The reasons for this are unknown, but in my opinion it's a combination of reasons 1 and 2, limited session lengths, driver fatigue and wear & tear on the car. A car/driver is far less likely to fail in a 15-20 minute session than a 40-45 minute session. Both then get a good chance to cool down and rehidrate in the case of the driver.
Additionally, a forced break can often highlight an issue that with noise & adrenaline at it's peak may have been missed. Leaking oil, canvassed tyres, lack of brake pads, dehydration are all quick examples of things that can be missed when you're out on track - but that become evident as soon as you stop.
Someone's bound to chip in now and say that this is because OPL gives you more track time than sessioned days. The regulars among us will know that is isn't strictly the case - many customers comment that on sessioned days they feel obligued to go out for their 20 minutes per hour whereas on an OPL day they may only go out a couple of times in an AM or PM session.
Let's not forget that 10 years ago the vast majority of track days were sessioned, now the vast majority are open pit lane. I think that's a trend that's been forced by the market more than the TDO's - we gave up trying to run sessioned events last year - they were getting quieter and quieter while our competitors equivalent OPL days were filling up regularly (sometimes massively oversubscribed if the stories are to be beleived).
My personal opinion (speaking as a track driver rather than a TDO) is that I much prefer open pit lane events. I prefer the flexibility to sit around and chat, have a drink, take a dump when you want to - but most of all I don't enjoy mammoth 40 minute stints on track - I tend to do 4 or 5 laps at a time maximum then take a break. I also enjoy the flexibility of being able to come in and pick up passengers ad hoc - something you can't really do with a typical sessioned event.
In an ideal world - i'd like to run open pit lane events all the time - with some of them marketed as novice only events and some of them marketed as experienced drivers only - the majority of them as regular OPL events. This is something i'm aiming towards but requires a very solid market share and good customer base before you can even attempt to pull it off successfully. We tried a few years ago and failed - we're dipping our toes in the water again this year so fingers crossed.
I'm going to ignore the questions about briefing content and quality as I feel that's heading into an area of competitive advantage - a bit like asking colonel sanders what his 12 herbs and spices are :-)
Jonny
BaT
Firstly, there are a number of reasons (finances aside) why a TDO would want to run 3 or 4 sessioned events.
Splitting people of differing abilities/experience is (IMO) the number 1 reason. As has already been mentioned - keeping complete novices away from (the sometimes impatient :-P) track day warriors. Sure, outright speed is the obvious way to do this and generally the novice session will be lapping slower than the advanced session - but speed is not what's important as i've already tried to point out earlier in the thread.
Second reason is to ensure consistency of traffic. What I mean by that is that you're only ever going to be encountering a smaller number of different cars - so you're much more likely to become aware of that cars driving style, performance and observation.
Another advantage to sessioned events is that they are generally (and statistically in BaT's case) much safer - both in terms of stoppages and crash damage. The reasons for this are unknown, but in my opinion it's a combination of reasons 1 and 2, limited session lengths, driver fatigue and wear & tear on the car. A car/driver is far less likely to fail in a 15-20 minute session than a 40-45 minute session. Both then get a good chance to cool down and rehidrate in the case of the driver.
Additionally, a forced break can often highlight an issue that with noise & adrenaline at it's peak may have been missed. Leaking oil, canvassed tyres, lack of brake pads, dehydration are all quick examples of things that can be missed when you're out on track - but that become evident as soon as you stop.
Someone's bound to chip in now and say that this is because OPL gives you more track time than sessioned days. The regulars among us will know that is isn't strictly the case - many customers comment that on sessioned days they feel obligued to go out for their 20 minutes per hour whereas on an OPL day they may only go out a couple of times in an AM or PM session.
Let's not forget that 10 years ago the vast majority of track days were sessioned, now the vast majority are open pit lane. I think that's a trend that's been forced by the market more than the TDO's - we gave up trying to run sessioned events last year - they were getting quieter and quieter while our competitors equivalent OPL days were filling up regularly (sometimes massively oversubscribed if the stories are to be beleived).
My personal opinion (speaking as a track driver rather than a TDO) is that I much prefer open pit lane events. I prefer the flexibility to sit around and chat, have a drink, take a dump when you want to - but most of all I don't enjoy mammoth 40 minute stints on track - I tend to do 4 or 5 laps at a time maximum then take a break. I also enjoy the flexibility of being able to come in and pick up passengers ad hoc - something you can't really do with a typical sessioned event.
In an ideal world - i'd like to run open pit lane events all the time - with some of them marketed as novice only events and some of them marketed as experienced drivers only - the majority of them as regular OPL events. This is something i'm aiming towards but requires a very solid market share and good customer base before you can even attempt to pull it off successfully. We tried a few years ago and failed - we're dipping our toes in the water again this year so fingers crossed.
I'm going to ignore the questions about briefing content and quality as I feel that's heading into an area of competitive advantage - a bit like asking colonel sanders what his 12 herbs and spices are :-)
Jonny
BaT
jleroux said:
In an ideal world - i'd like to run open pit lane events all the time - with some of them marketed as novice only events and some of them marketed as experienced drivers only - the majority of them as regular OPL events. This is something i'm aiming towards but requires a very solid market share and good customer base before you can even attempt to pull it off successfully. We tried a few years ago and failed - we're dipping our toes in the water again this year so fingers crossed.
Being a novice I find there's a big confidence boost in being able to go out on a 'novice only' session. The feeling of pressure at potentially holding up a much faster driver isn't something you need when you're trying to get your head round driving at speed!Having done a Brands evening with MSV I found it was pretty quiet but that I drove far too much (OPL event) - I'd have benefitted from sessions or a full day where I didn't feel the need to cram in as much as possible. I ended up doing 76 miles in the 2 hours which was way too much and my driving got quite ragged as fatigue took over. What felt like tne minute stints turned out to be 25 (ones perception is somewhat warped on track!).
Having gone along to a few BaT days as a passneger I can see the benefits of both methods though. With experience OPL is better but, as a novice, being forced to pace yourself is a very very good thing!
I'm not letting a super experienced bloke in a Radical SR8 anywhere near a virgin in a Roadsport.
Very, very scary indeed.
We do open pitlane at Spa but only because we keep the numbers very low and vet the entries pretty carefully.
The good thing about the UK trackday scene is there's plenty of choice. If you don't like a 30 mins on 30 mins off format then there are lots of other people doing open pitlane.
Different people like different sorts of events.
Melindi
Very, very scary indeed.
We do open pitlane at Spa but only because we keep the numbers very low and vet the entries pretty carefully.
The good thing about the UK trackday scene is there's plenty of choice. If you don't like a 30 mins on 30 mins off format then there are lots of other people doing open pitlane.
Different people like different sorts of events.
Melindi
Some good points there Jonny and you're days this year seem to be mostly OPL, so I shall be bringing lots of clients to you for them 
So, with Gold Track, they have a great reputation and excellent client base, so I am sure they could easily pull OPL days off? They are my most popular track day company, A. Because they run great days B. Because there a great bunch and are very accommodating in any request and C. Because they run at Silverstone GP a lot, which is a safe track and I live very close to it, so it works perfectly for my instruction.
What are the true financial gains of running sessions Jonny or Melindi?
The 30 min on, 30 min off for me is a bit too much, for instruction (but I make do ), as I don't want to keep the client out for a full 30 minutes and I also don't need to sit down and talk over the driving for a full 30 minutes in between. I would much prefer 20 min on, 20 min off throughout the day on sessioned events. The Silverstone South Open Pit Lane Gold track event the other day was just awesome, it was like a private test day!
I would really love Gold Track to have OPL days at Silverstone, but I am sure there is some sort of financial restraint on that and most possible a number of the reasons Jonny gave above.
Thanks for the post Jonny, I find it interesting to see how TD companies operate.
So, with Gold Track, they have a great reputation and excellent client base, so I am sure they could easily pull OPL days off? They are my most popular track day company, A. Because they run great days B. Because there a great bunch and are very accommodating in any request and C. Because they run at Silverstone GP a lot, which is a safe track and I live very close to it, so it works perfectly for my instruction.
What are the true financial gains of running sessions Jonny or Melindi?
The 30 min on, 30 min off for me is a bit too much, for instruction (but I make do
), as I don't want to keep the client out for a full 30 minutes and I also don't need to sit down and talk over the driving for a full 30 minutes in between. I would much prefer 20 min on, 20 min off throughout the day on sessioned events. The Silverstone South Open Pit Lane Gold track event the other day was just awesome, it was like a private test day!I would really love Gold Track to have OPL days at Silverstone, but I am sure there is some sort of financial restraint on that and most possible a number of the reasons Jonny gave above.
Thanks for the post Jonny, I find it interesting to see how TD companies operate.
Edited by Sean Edwards on Tuesday 22 January 11:50
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20 minute sessions at Silverstone mean you lose too much time on the changeover too often. It also doesn't give a lot of people enough time for a decent cooldown.
Melindi
www.goldtrack.co.uk
Melindi
www.goldtrack.co.uk
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