Emergency Stops. Advice for beginner please!
Discussion
Returned to biking last year after many moons away. Previous experience so long ago and so limited that I'm really a beginner.
Last year went well BUT just realised that I have yet to find myself in the position where I've had to do a high speed emergency stop. I'm pleased as I think a lot of this is down to good anticipation etc. etc. but also concerned as I'm not really sure what will happen if/when I do need to do one.
Any suggestions on how to get comfortable with this. Find a quite road and start at 20mph and build up to it maybe? I've just got no idea how hard I can load up the front wheel until it locks and if and when it does lock at speed is that the end of my day or is there time to release the brake and recover. Trouble is in a car I'd just mash the brake to the floor and all the guardian electronics will do their thing (put simply).
Sorry if this seems side splittingly stupid to all hardened bikers out there but I'd rather ask and look an idiot than become a statistic!
Last year went well BUT just realised that I have yet to find myself in the position where I've had to do a high speed emergency stop. I'm pleased as I think a lot of this is down to good anticipation etc. etc. but also concerned as I'm not really sure what will happen if/when I do need to do one.
Any suggestions on how to get comfortable with this. Find a quite road and start at 20mph and build up to it maybe? I've just got no idea how hard I can load up the front wheel until it locks and if and when it does lock at speed is that the end of my day or is there time to release the brake and recover. Trouble is in a car I'd just mash the brake to the floor and all the guardian electronics will do their thing (put simply).
Sorry if this seems side splittingly stupid to all hardened bikers out there but I'd rather ask and look an idiot than become a statistic!
Find a quiet back road as you say (or empty car park) and practice.
You'll be amazed how far you can pull the brakes without skidding BUT the trick is to squeeze the brakes to start and then progressively pull on rather than a quick grab of the brake lever. Also a little rear brake at the end can help to settle the bike more.
You'll be amazed how far you can pull the brakes without skidding BUT the trick is to squeeze the brakes to start and then progressively pull on rather than a quick grab of the brake lever. Also a little rear brake at the end can help to settle the bike more.
As a recent learner who started off at 20mph and ended up doing 70mph stops on bends, i'll say how I built up to it.
Firstly just gently brake to a stop from say 30mph, squeeze the brake and feel how much pressure is needed at the end of the stop, this made me feel how hard I should be squeezing just as I come to a stop.
I then did the same but only used the rear brake, did it without locking the brake up, but it's good to lock it a little when practicing, just to feel what happens, it's pretty stable still.
Then squeeze the lever firmly with 2 fingers (Never could do it right with 3) while rolling off the throttle, squeeze pretty hard and get used to all the weight being on your arms and squeeze the tank with your legs. Progressively releasing the brake as you come to a halt.
Then just keep speeding up and doing the same. I found I was braking far far later than I thought i'd be able to on a bike and by pushing the front tyre into the ground with a progressive pull the amount of grip you get is bloody impressive. This was all done on a 600 bandit.
I also found locking the front wheel in a straight line wasn't the scary situation I thought it would be, same with the back.
Very confidence inspiring and once you see how quickly you really can stop then you should be more relaxed should a situation occur.
Any experienced bikers please feel free to tear my advice to shreds haha
Dave!
Firstly just gently brake to a stop from say 30mph, squeeze the brake and feel how much pressure is needed at the end of the stop, this made me feel how hard I should be squeezing just as I come to a stop.
I then did the same but only used the rear brake, did it without locking the brake up, but it's good to lock it a little when practicing, just to feel what happens, it's pretty stable still.
Then squeeze the lever firmly with 2 fingers (Never could do it right with 3) while rolling off the throttle, squeeze pretty hard and get used to all the weight being on your arms and squeeze the tank with your legs. Progressively releasing the brake as you come to a halt.
Then just keep speeding up and doing the same. I found I was braking far far later than I thought i'd be able to on a bike and by pushing the front tyre into the ground with a progressive pull the amount of grip you get is bloody impressive. This was all done on a 600 bandit.
I also found locking the front wheel in a straight line wasn't the scary situation I thought it would be, same with the back.
Very confidence inspiring and once you see how quickly you really can stop then you should be more relaxed should a situation occur.
Any experienced bikers please feel free to tear my advice to shreds haha
Dave!
All you need to know is:
squeeze, dont grab.
And once you start squeezing, squeeze progressively harder until the front locks (unlikely if youve done it right) or the rear wheel lifts (unlikely if youve done it right and weight is well distributed) or you stop.
Then remember to put your foot down once youre stopped!!
Also: You CAN lock the front wheel up and survive! Its not instant death (usually).
Thats all.
squeeze, dont grab.
And once you start squeezing, squeeze progressively harder until the front locks (unlikely if youve done it right) or the rear wheel lifts (unlikely if youve done it right and weight is well distributed) or you stop.
Then remember to put your foot down once youre stopped!!
Also: You CAN lock the front wheel up and survive! Its not instant death (usually).
Thats all.
Silent1 said:
Howitzer said:
...ended up doing 70mph stops on bends,.......
How did you do that without crashing? As every time you brake on a corner you it tries to stand the bike up, so an emergency stop is either going to stand it up or lock up and lowside if you grab them sharply.I just squeezed the lever as hard as possible for the amount of grip I felt through the bars and countersteered more when the bike tried to stand up. My first go had me dabbing a foot and breaking a toe though.
Sean Hayes gave great instruction that day which stopped you thinking about it and just got you doing it. His theory was that most accidents happen when a biker tries to stop sharply midbend so taught us how to do it safely.
Dave!
Howitzer said:
Silent1 said:
Howitzer said:
...ended up doing 70mph stops on bends,.......
How did you do that without crashing? As every time you brake on a corner you it tries to stand the bike up, so an emergency stop is either going to stand it up or lock up and lowside if you grab them sharply.I just squeezed the lever as hard as possible for the amount of grip I felt through the bars and countersteered more when the bike tried to stand up. My first go had me dabbing a foot and breaking a toe though.
Sean Hayes gave great instruction that day which stopped you thinking about it and just got you doing it. His theory was that most accidents happen when a biker tries to stop sharply midbend so taught us how to do it safely.
Dave!
Steve.
Some great advice guys - will be out this w/e for a spot of practice.
Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
Always close the throttle first!!!
Might sound stupid, but the number of people I see going straight onto the brake without shutting off the gas... Seems to be worse when folk ride round with two fingers on the brake lever (just like the photo's in performance bike...).
Next, a gentle squeeze of the front brake backed up with toes on the back.
As your weight moves forward, roll your right hand forward over the lever; your fingers get shorter, the lever comes back the way and it makes sure the throttle stays shut all the way through.
For maximum engine braking and less chance of locking the rear, leave the gears alone, leave the clutch alone; if you stall you can easily start it again can't you?
I know it sounds weird, but keep your arms relaxed while braking and get into the habit of squeezing with your inner thighs (horse rider style).
With your arms loose you have more muscle control in your hands and forearms, you still have the opportunity for small steering inputs and also it helps absorb any ripples or bumps in the road surface which could otherwise make the tyre skip.
And practise.
And practise some more.
Then do it again.
Might sound stupid, but the number of people I see going straight onto the brake without shutting off the gas... Seems to be worse when folk ride round with two fingers on the brake lever (just like the photo's in performance bike...).
Next, a gentle squeeze of the front brake backed up with toes on the back.
As your weight moves forward, roll your right hand forward over the lever; your fingers get shorter, the lever comes back the way and it makes sure the throttle stays shut all the way through.
For maximum engine braking and less chance of locking the rear, leave the gears alone, leave the clutch alone; if you stall you can easily start it again can't you?
I know it sounds weird, but keep your arms relaxed while braking and get into the habit of squeezing with your inner thighs (horse rider style).
With your arms loose you have more muscle control in your hands and forearms, you still have the opportunity for small steering inputs and also it helps absorb any ripples or bumps in the road surface which could otherwise make the tyre skip.
And practise.
And practise some more.
Then do it again.
Pugsey said:
Some great advice guys - will be out this w/e for a spot of practice.
Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
If you are going to try braking on a corner be prepared to low side and need new panels etc.Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
Silent1 said:
Pugsey said:
Some great advice guys - will be out this w/e for a spot of practice.
Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
If you are going to try braking on a corner be prepared to low side and need new panels etc.Re the braking in corners thing, I completely agree that it's prob. best avoided BUT I'll certainly give that a try too - although on track a little later in the year I think! After all when things DO got tits up good old sods law dictates it'll be at the most incovenient time and place and it won't be much good thinking "if only this had been in a straight line" as you plough into an errant sheep or whatever. As I've always done with cars I want to know how to handle a situation BEFORE my life depends on it............
Moving up from the Hornet in a couple of months so 'situations' will be coming at me a tad faster this summer too!
Cheers all.
Pugs.
I suppose the correct answer to the original question would be to find deserted road & practice applying more & more pressure until you find out.
The quicker way would be to get booked on a track day & you'll find out very quickly thats its quite difficult to lock up the front even with ludicrous amounts of pressure applied. I find that its more a case of being able to keep the rear wheel on the ground than locking up the front.
Fun, fun.
The quicker way would be to get booked on a track day & you'll find out very quickly thats its quite difficult to lock up the front even with ludicrous amounts of pressure applied. I find that its more a case of being able to keep the rear wheel on the ground than locking up the front.
Fun, fun.
Hobo said:
I suppose the correct answer to the original question would be to find deserted road & practice applying more & more pressure until you find out.
The quicker way would be to get booked on a track day & you'll find out very quickly thats its quite difficult to lock up the front even with ludicrous amounts of pressure applied. I find that its more a case of being able to keep the rear wheel on the ground than locking up the front.
Fun, fun.
Yep, will be off the the California School when the weather improves. They assure me that they take numptees and turn them into aces - we'll see. Actually if I was betting on it I'd say 'fat chance'!The quicker way would be to get booked on a track day & you'll find out very quickly thats its quite difficult to lock up the front even with ludicrous amounts of pressure applied. I find that its more a case of being able to keep the rear wheel on the ground than locking up the front.
Fun, fun.
Some very good advice there.
Just a couple of extra points from me.
1) If you're going to go out and intentionally try to work on "hard braking", get the tyres and yourself warmed up first. When it all goes pear-shaped on the road in real life, you might have to brake hard on cold tyres, but that's no reason to do so when practicing. Once you've mastered hard-stopping on hot tyres, experiment with cold, but let's not start out that way!
2) two or four finger brake as you consider appropriate, but if you go for the two finger option, get the other two fingers off the throttle too. You'll not be wanting to trap them between leaver and bar (especially if the bike goes over sideways and the brake leaver hits the tarmac!) Because of the leaver action, it is your little finger that actually applis most braking effort. In the old days four fingers was vital for rapid stopping, but now brakes re so good its not quite so crutial.
3) Remember the Ride survey from a couple of years ago when they compared the "voted best brakes" bike (a Ducatti) against the "voted worst brakes"? (CG125??). With a rider who knew what they were doing, the difference was 9 inches when breaking form 50mph IIRC. Its not the bike but the rider that matters.
4) As said many times above, take up the slack then squeeze. Panic grab = tarmac interface situation.
5) 17 inch front wheel = might be able to hold a front wheel lock-up, sub 17 inch = accident imminent.
6) Some bikes are physically unable to perform a "stoppie", so don't keep trying to do so. (If centre of gravity is below the axle line, the front tyre will slide out before the back lifts. I know this, I proved it and wrote off the bike doing so. I was stupid, but you have been told so no need to prove it too!)
Dave
Just a couple of extra points from me.
1) If you're going to go out and intentionally try to work on "hard braking", get the tyres and yourself warmed up first. When it all goes pear-shaped on the road in real life, you might have to brake hard on cold tyres, but that's no reason to do so when practicing. Once you've mastered hard-stopping on hot tyres, experiment with cold, but let's not start out that way!
2) two or four finger brake as you consider appropriate, but if you go for the two finger option, get the other two fingers off the throttle too. You'll not be wanting to trap them between leaver and bar (especially if the bike goes over sideways and the brake leaver hits the tarmac!) Because of the leaver action, it is your little finger that actually applis most braking effort. In the old days four fingers was vital for rapid stopping, but now brakes re so good its not quite so crutial.
3) Remember the Ride survey from a couple of years ago when they compared the "voted best brakes" bike (a Ducatti) against the "voted worst brakes"? (CG125??). With a rider who knew what they were doing, the difference was 9 inches when breaking form 50mph IIRC. Its not the bike but the rider that matters.
4) As said many times above, take up the slack then squeeze. Panic grab = tarmac interface situation.
5) 17 inch front wheel = might be able to hold a front wheel lock-up, sub 17 inch = accident imminent.
6) Some bikes are physically unable to perform a "stoppie", so don't keep trying to do so. (If centre of gravity is below the axle line, the front tyre will slide out before the back lifts. I know this, I proved it and wrote off the bike doing so. I was stupid, but you have been told so no need to prove it too!)
Dave
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