Are there any *obvious* S3/S3C differences

[Chris71]

This doesn't relate to a PH car, I trust you guys completely

However, the owner of another S I've seen advertised wasn't sure what type of a car he had. Genuine confusion rather than any sort of dishonesty - but he first described it as an S3C, then a 290S, then an S3. Is there any obvious visual check you can do to see what it is? A chassis number or something...

Hopefully got two or three lined up to see over the weekend.

[dougc]

If it has cats, its an S3C or S4C (unless decatted, in which case look for the lambda sensors on the top of the manifold to verify)
Long doors indicate an S3/S3C/S4C over the S1/S1.5/S2
290S is usually what it says in the logbook for most 2.9 engined S models.

[Barkychoc]

I think if it is an S3C it will have lambda sensors in the exhaust - these are gas sensors that are to do with the stricter control of emissions. Look at the exhaust under the bonnet - I'm not entirely sure with the V6 but I think you should find sensors screwed in to the exhaust (one each side) with wires coming from them.
Again I'm guessing but I think there will be more substantial pipes (i.e. fatter) from the manifolds in order to fit the cats inside them.
Of course you could be looking at an S3c with the cats removed.

• edited to say if I'd read doug's post properly above he's already told you this!

I also seem to remember courtesy of TVRGIT that the S3c doesn't have air flow meters.

Chris

Edited by Barkychoc on Thursday 24th January 18:36

Edited by Barkychoc on Thursday 24th January 18:49

[tvrgit]

Barkychoc said:

I also seem to remember courtesy of TVRGIT that the S3c doesn't have air flow meters.

Correct

The lambda sensors monitor unburnt hydrocarbons in the exhaust and adjust the fuel/air mix accordingly. That means that the air doesn't have to be metered as it goes in - the exhaust is effectively metered as it goes out (simplistic explanation of why no air flow meters)

Lambda sensor is bottom centre of this pic:


S3C also has a tiny black MAP sensor (manifold absolute pressure) about the size of a large box of matches, mounted on the bulkead beside the heater hoses, with 2 wires and a rubber tube connected. That's also connected to the ecu as part of the lambda and fuel map system.

[Barkychoc]

Are those vertical bits in the exhaust replacement pipes where the cats would be?
If so are the original cat pipes a lot bigger than those?

Just curious really.

Chris

[tvrgit]

Barkychoc said:

Are those vertical bits in the exhaust replacement pipes where the cats would be?
If so are the original cat pipes a lot bigger than those?

Just curious really.

Chris

Aye the "bronzed" vertical pipes are cat replacement pipes - 3 nuts and bolts top and bottom. That pic was just after I'd fitted new manfolds, and I had to get the cat pipes lengthened by 10 mm (you can see the shiny collar welded in at the bottom end). SInce then I've taken the cat pipes off and cleaned them up again!

The original cats are the same length (obviously&quot but with a large fat catalyst in the middle - it looks like a large bean tin about maybe 5 inch diameter, welded into that section.

This photo was taken just after I bought the car - you can see the cats (one of them held together with exhaust bandage fitted by previous owner I assume) and the old manifolds (and the general poxy state of everything!)

Edited by tvrgit on Thursday 24th January 20:21

[Chris71]

So at the risk of complicating things, if someone has an S3C that's been decatted, presumably the lambda sensor remains as it's effectively still working as the MAF sensor?

[Barkychoc]

Chris71 said:

So at the risk of complicating things, if someone has an S3C that's been decatted, presumably the lambda sensor remains as it's effectively still working as the MAF sensor?

Correct!

[tvrgit]

Yep, see 2 photos above - old manifolds with cats, new manifolds with no cats, but retaining lambda sensors so that ecu can retain fuel maps.

If you lose the lambdas, you need to install air flow meters, remove the MAP sensors, and (I think) program a new ecu set up with different fuel maps (because it's then receiving different inputs). Not sure about the last bit - maybe the ecu is programmed to accept whatever inputs it gets so that it can be used on cat and non-cat Fords. I suspect it's the same hardware but programmed differently.

[shentodj]

What about the built-in foglights under the front bumper? Don't these have any significance?

Shentodj

[tvrgit]

shentodj said:

What about the built-in foglights under the front bumper? Don't these have any significance?

Shentodj

Not infallible. I've seen S3 with spotlights there - there is at least one on here but I can't remember whose it is - the owner has a website at http://www.deadpineapple.net 

A Storm grey S3 with spots under the front bumper.

[coolcatmaz]

my S3 has the spots or 'driving lights' under the bonnet.

[jimed]

The 'driving lights' under the front of the bonnet can be either fog or spot lights - it depends where they are wired in. Mine should be fog lights as they will only come on with dipped headlights whereas I know of others which are wired to come on only with main beam which should presumably be spots.
Jim

[Chris71]

Got another one.....

I drove an S3 recently and one of the first things to strike me was how little accelerator pedal travel there was compared to the S1. This is a good thing IMO as the S1 featured a huge stretch to get full throttle - is that normal? Wondering if there was a linkage problem or something on the previous car.

[jimed]

There is apparently a mod that you can do that gives quicker responses. I can't remember the full details but I think its the 'j plate' mod to the throttle linkage - there were some posts on here not too long ago so shouldn't be too hard to find. One other related bit of info is that some S's seem to go through throttle cables as there is no throttle stop and it can therefore be possible to literally push the nipple off the cable end with persistant hard use; there have also been posts re that as well (a spare cable in the boot is therefore not a bad thing)
Jim

[Barkychoc]

jimed said:

There is apparently a mod that you can do that gives quicker responses. I can't remember the full details but I think its the 'j plate' mod to the throttle linkage - there were some posts on here not too long ago so shouldn't be too hard to find. One other related bit of info is that some S's seem to go through throttle cables as there is no throttle stop and it can therefore be possible to literally push the nipple off the cable end with persistant hard use; there have also been posts re that as well (a spare cable in the boot is therefore not a bad thing)
Jim

I think the J slot in the accelerator plate is effectively made straight - you can do this yourself if you're handy with a welder but guiglielmi motorsport do them for not much cash.

[Chris71]

But in terms of the actual travel.... Should there be any difference? The S3 you could have happily heel and toe'd on, but the S1 had a huge ammount of travel.

On a slightly different note - are the gearboxes different? One of the cars I've seen had a perfect gear change (better than any other car I've driven) the other was distinctly vague. I presume they should both be good and the latter is indicative of worn bushes in the mechanism or something?

(Sorry - deviated slightly from the original thread, the above refers to S1-S3 changes, rather than S3 to S3C!)

[Barkychoc]

Well you have to wonder about some people don't you, but I was actually reading my Steve Heath Bible last night.
The gearbox on all V6's is a ford Type N gearbox.
The sierra later moved to the 'MT75' but TVR never did, they stuck with the type N. It says that there may be the odd TVR about with the MT75 but not many. So knowing TVR it's anyone guess.

[petclub]

Chris what was the ratio for 3rd?

Edited by petclub on Tuesday 29th January 15:13

[coolcatmaz]

jimed said:

The 'driving lights' under the front of the bonnet can be either fog or spot lights - it depends where they are wired in. Mine should be fog lights as they will only come on with dipped headlights whereas I know of others which are wired to come on only with main beam which should presumably be spots.
Jim

ahhh, mine come on with full beam so presumably 'spots' then. Damn handy though as they don't half light up the road