Brother's car confiscated as part of a random stop
Discussion
My brother was stopped last week by the North Wales Mafia (aka - The Police) as part of a random stop service that they were performing. Whilst in their control he was informed that he was not licenced to drive as his licence was revoked as he "did not send it in for points removal"!!!!! They then went through their usual routine and confiscated his works vehicle and towed it away with the view of scrapping it, leaving him left without any vehicle. They also told him that they will be prosecuting him for driving while not having a licence or insurance (as result of no licence, insurance was void).
Obvously un-aware at having his licence revoked he contacted his solicitor to find the best way forward. After speaking to her he phoned DVLA and was told that his licence was revoked in 1994 because he failed to send it in for a speeding offence, this is something he denies.
The offence in question was for doing 102mph and as a result he had to attend court. He went through the process in court and was asked to hand his licence in to the court for points etc. and did so and recieved his licence back with penalty points.
He has since found this licence (an old one) and it shows the points put on the licence for the offence.
My problem with all this is:
- The officer that initially dealt with this gave duff information, which as far as I know is wrong .... Needed to hand licence in for points removal. If that is teh case then my licence must be revoked as I still have expired points on it as do a lot of people I know.
- The Officer was using information that was incorrect.
- The Officer had too much power that he shouldn't of had in the first place as he was relying on a system that is flawed.
- Since 1994 he has had to give his licence in for various reasons such as being involved in an accident caused by a drunk driver, 1 further speeding offence and at no point was he told of this revoked licence situation.
- He hasn't changed his address since the incident and has received no mail or a visit by the police for not handing his licence in.
Over the years I have been loosing respect for our country's police force and I believe after this incident that I have totaly lost it now.
The topping on the cake is that my parents have moved into a house they have just purchased and are currently being harassed by a baliff for debts against the previous owners. The baliff is insisting that they are this person and are quite aggresive. I am now worried for my parents as I've heard these monkeys phoning the police accusing the home owner of threatening them with violence to get the Police to turn up quickly. Resulting in the Police siding with the baliff!!!
I am quite angry about the above on top of the other stuff I have told over the years and really needed to vent it.
I will remind you of the term I used at the begining of this post "North Wales Mafia".
Mafia - "a close group of people who are involved in similar activities and who help and protect each other, sometimes to the disadvantage of others"
Obvously un-aware at having his licence revoked he contacted his solicitor to find the best way forward. After speaking to her he phoned DVLA and was told that his licence was revoked in 1994 because he failed to send it in for a speeding offence, this is something he denies.
The offence in question was for doing 102mph and as a result he had to attend court. He went through the process in court and was asked to hand his licence in to the court for points etc. and did so and recieved his licence back with penalty points.
He has since found this licence (an old one) and it shows the points put on the licence for the offence.
My problem with all this is:
- The officer that initially dealt with this gave duff information, which as far as I know is wrong .... Needed to hand licence in for points removal. If that is teh case then my licence must be revoked as I still have expired points on it as do a lot of people I know.
- The Officer was using information that was incorrect.
- The Officer had too much power that he shouldn't of had in the first place as he was relying on a system that is flawed.
- Since 1994 he has had to give his licence in for various reasons such as being involved in an accident caused by a drunk driver, 1 further speeding offence and at no point was he told of this revoked licence situation.
- He hasn't changed his address since the incident and has received no mail or a visit by the police for not handing his licence in.
Over the years I have been loosing respect for our country's police force and I believe after this incident that I have totaly lost it now.
The topping on the cake is that my parents have moved into a house they have just purchased and are currently being harassed by a baliff for debts against the previous owners. The baliff is insisting that they are this person and are quite aggresive. I am now worried for my parents as I've heard these monkeys phoning the police accusing the home owner of threatening them with violence to get the Police to turn up quickly. Resulting in the Police siding with the baliff!!!
I am quite angry about the above on top of the other stuff I have told over the years and really needed to vent it.
I will remind you of the term I used at the begining of this post "North Wales Mafia".
Mafia - "a close group of people who are involved in similar activities and who help and protect each other, sometimes to the disadvantage of others"
Unfortunately DVLA do from time to time get stuff wrong. Their information is however generally much more reliable than the insurance database info, which doesn't cover all the bases.
This means that many officers would use the DVLA driving licence data on it's own as being sufficient to believe, NOT suspect that the driver is unlicenced, providing them with the legal power to seize the vehicle.
I've found this kind of revocation information from DVLA a lot more often than I would have expected. I have seized on the basis of it. Similarly I have reported for the offence (without seizing) where the driver is absolutely adamant that he is correct, and offers a believable story. I have found that on many more than half the cases that I have allowed the driver to proceed on report, the driver was correct.
On the few occasions where a story has duped me at the time, he then has to go to court rather than accept the fpt for driving not in accordance. I trust that the court will look at the lies given at the time as an aggravator and increase the penalty.
This means that many officers would use the DVLA driving licence data on it's own as being sufficient to believe, NOT suspect that the driver is unlicenced, providing them with the legal power to seize the vehicle.
I've found this kind of revocation information from DVLA a lot more often than I would have expected. I have seized on the basis of it. Similarly I have reported for the offence (without seizing) where the driver is absolutely adamant that he is correct, and offers a believable story. I have found that on many more than half the cases that I have allowed the driver to proceed on report, the driver was correct.
On the few occasions where a story has duped me at the time, he then has to go to court rather than accept the fpt for driving not in accordance. I trust that the court will look at the lies given at the time as an aggravator and increase the penalty.
Edited by Soren2 on Friday 8th February 09:48
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
But the source of information that the police are using in this case is widely known to be quite inaccurate. That they can seize cars and inconvenience people only on the basis of this seems wrong.I have to admit that I find it very hard to believe that the police officer (allegedly) told the OP's brother that his licence had been revoked as it had not been submitted for points removal. If true, you'd have to question the coppers ability to do his job based on such a fundamental lack of knowledge.
splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
This case has nothing to do with an uninsured vehicle.The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
It has to do with the combined and totally ill founded abuse of power both by the police and most importantly, the DVLA.
What is needed here is a massive joint civil action on behalf of a number of wronged drivers against the DVLA for substantial damages founded on their gross incompetence and flawed records.
A joint action would make the procedure financially viable for each individual and would almost certainly succeed; the evidence of complaints of this nature are escalating by the week and are easily proven.
Furthermore, the police have a duty of care as much, if not more so, than the DVLA to ensure that the public are protected and not abused against the worst excesses of this type of flawed bureaucracy. In every instance of error by the DVLA, the police should be down on THEM like a ton of bricks insted of persecuting the innocent party.
Oh...your brother should sort out all his evidence and get the DVLA data corrected. He should record any telephone calls and, preferably, do everything in writing.
Once the DVLA had admitted they are in the wrong - start legal proceedings for compensation for the incovenience. Its not the copper's problem - the DVLA need a regular spanking to keep them honest...
Once the DVLA had admitted they are in the wrong - start legal proceedings for compensation for the incovenience. Its not the copper's problem - the DVLA need a regular spanking to keep them honest...
jith said:
splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
This case has nothing to do with an uninsured vehicle.The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
It has to do with the combined and totally ill founded abuse of power both by the police and most importantly, the DVLA.
What is needed here is a massive joint civil action on behalf of a number of wronged drivers against the DVLA for substantial damages founded on their gross incompetence and flawed records.
A joint action would make the procedure financially viable for each individual and would almost certainly succeed; the evidence of complaints of this nature are escalating by the week and are easily proven.
Furthermore, the police have a duty of care as much, if not more so, than the DVLA to ensure that the public are protected and not abused against the worst excesses of this type of flawed bureaucracy. In every instance of error by the DVLA, the police should be down on THEM like a ton of bricks insted of persecuting the innocent party.
Guybrush said:
Soren2 said:
Unfortunately DVLA do from time to time get stuff wrong.
...from time to time 
On this very site not so long ago, the "accuracy" of DVLA's data was discussed. Their data is known to be about 40% in error in some way.
"We do not get things wrong here at the DVLA sir"
ha, what a joke!!!
Mr2Mike said:
splitter / judas said:
I have to admit that I find it very hard to believe that the police officer (allegedly) told the OP's brother that his licence had been revoked as it had not been submitted for points removal. If true, you'd have to question the coppers ability to do his job based on such a fundamental lack of knowledge.
I skimmed that point in the OP, but it would seem obvious to me that what the copper said, or meant to say, is that the licence had been revoked because it hadn't been sent in for points to be added.Aubrey said:
Guybrush said:
Soren2 said:
Unfortunately DVLA do from time to time get stuff wrong.
...from time to time On this very site not so long ago, the "accuracy" of DVLA's data was discussed. Their data is known to be about 40% in error in some way.
"We do not get things wrong here at the DVLA sir"
ha, what a joke!!!
Presumably your relative will be able to sue them for taking the car illegally, although I doubt this possibility exists given that officialdom can do what they bloody well like.
Aubrey said:
Guybrush said:
Soren2 said:
Unfortunately DVLA do from time to time get stuff wrong.
...from time to time On this very site not so long ago, the "accuracy" of DVLA's data was discussed. Their data is known to be about 40% in error in some way.
"We do not get things wrong here at the DVLA sir"
ha, what a joke!!!
Soren2 said:
In all honesty DVLA's information to us on driving licence status is pretty good, and is a useful tool that has only recently (in the last 3 or so years) been made immediately available to us on the roadside. It does depend on inputter accuracy which does on occasion let them down. This is why it is important to validate all info from DVLA by roadside questioning and judgement.
Yes I would agree, there are I'm sure some errors there, but by and large it is very useful to have this info to hand when doing road-side checks. As you say it can usually be confirmed by checking their driving licenses and or questioning etc.splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
The thing is Splitter, my brother who is a self employed electrician and with a family+mortgage is now without a vehicle for work and unable to drive until what is probably going to be a lengthy waste of time to prove himeself innocent. He also has the threat of his vehicle being scrapped for no fault of his own.The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
These people should not of had these powers if they can not rely on the information in the first place.
nlldavies said:
splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
The thing is Splitter, my brother who is a self employed electrician and with a family+mortgage is now without a vehicle for work and unable to drive until what is probably going to be a lengthy waste of time to prove himeself innocent. He also has the threat of his vehicle being scrapped for no fault of his own.The seizure of uninsured vehicles is a power that is long overdue IMO and helps rid the streets of this menace. Whilst I appreciate the odd mistake will be made on the whole the system works.
By the sounds of it he needs to confirm the state of play on the licence with the DVLA and give consideration to getting them to pay any fees owed due to this incident.
These people should not of had these powers if they can not rely on the information in the first place.
Mr2Mike said:
splitter / judas said:
I see the usual BiB bashing is going on. The DVLA are at fault here - their database was incorrect and the BiB was only going on the information on it.
But the source of information that the police are using in this case is widely known to be quite inaccurate. That they can seize cars and inconvenience people only on the basis of this seems wrong.I have to admit that I find it very hard to believe that the police officer (allegedly) told the OP's brother that his licence had been revoked as it had not been submitted for points removal. If true, you'd have to question the coppers ability to do his job based on such a fundamental lack of knowledge.
IF I was a BiB, which I am not, and I checked the DVLA and it said the licence was expired, I'd take the safe route. Because I bet the DVLA is wrong a whole lot less than people tell fibs to traffic cops.
Guybrush said:
Their data is known to be about 40% in error in some way.
"Appeal to an Unidentified Authority" - http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to...I might start doing this regularly.
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