Service charge question
Discussion
Hoping for some information regarding unpaid property service charge.
Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
No legal expert but I think you might have to pay as in your contract it says you must pay WITHIN 14 days, with or without invoice(very clever). As you havent AFAIK you have given up your rights to pay the management co. Does it say what they will do outside of the 14 days?
With regards to the debt companies charges AFAIK you can challenge these either direct with them or if you choose through the court.
But the best advice is posted above...go see a solicitor or Citizens advice.
With regards to the debt companies charges AFAIK you can challenge these either direct with them or if you choose through the court.
But the best advice is posted above...go see a solicitor or Citizens advice.
NWTony said:
Hoping for some information regarding unpaid property service charge.
Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
IF they've never invoiced you or attempted to collect the debt in any other way, they're on shaky ground using a debt collection agency with commensurate fees. Call them, and explain that you're quite happy to pay the full amount and asking them simply why they never invoiced you or contacted you. Send them a cheque directly for the full amount by registered post. Ignore the debt collection agency. Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
If they apply through the courts for a distress warrant, the conversation will go like this.
Them: "We'd like a distress warrant for this amount for an unpaid fee." (i.e. Bailiffs)
Your sol: "As soon as my client was asked to pay this, he paid directly in full."
Bench "So it's been paid in full already at the first asking?"
Your sol: "Yes your worship"
Bench (to them) "Sod off and stop wasting our time."
Or something pretty similar.
Sounds right.
I had similar issue for a hundred £ or so last year with a famous welding gas co who often mess up their accounts paperwork. I'd paid but the set debt co onto me. They tried on the service charge hit. I wrote to debt Co stating that I had no debt, no contract with them and they should recover any of their fees from the GasCo from whom they had presumably taken instructions. I then pointed out that I had paid the Gasco sending details and they eventually found that they'd misposted it.
No apology though !
Never heard again from debt Co.
In OP's case I'd send a recorded delivery of cheque to management Co and write following day to debt co advising them same as above
I had similar issue for a hundred £ or so last year with a famous welding gas co who often mess up their accounts paperwork. I'd paid but the set debt co onto me. They tried on the service charge hit. I wrote to debt Co stating that I had no debt, no contract with them and they should recover any of their fees from the GasCo from whom they had presumably taken instructions. I then pointed out that I had paid the Gasco sending details and they eventually found that they'd misposted it.
No apology though !
Never heard again from debt Co.
In OP's case I'd send a recorded delivery of cheque to management Co and write following day to debt co advising them same as above
RtdRacer said:
NWTony said:
Hoping for some information regarding unpaid property service charge.
Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
IF they've never invoiced you or attempted to collect the debt in any other way, they're on shaky ground using a debt collection agency with commensurate fees. Call them, and explain that you're quite happy to pay the full amount and asking them simply why they never invoiced you or contacted you. Send them a cheque directly for the full amount by registered post. Ignore the debt collection agency. Basically, the management company for the apartments I live in didn't invoice me for three years and I didn't pay them. Couple of months ago got a letter from a debt collection company claiming the whole amount , in full. I agree that the debt is valid with the management co, the lease says the full amount to be paid in 14 days, irrespective of whether or not an invoice is issued (but how are you supposed to know how much to pay?).
Anyway, that's the background to it. However my argument is that the debt collection company has nothing to do with the debt and accordign to the lease I should pay the management company, which I've agreed to do. The debt collection co has of course added fees to the amount , which I'm not happy about paying as I was never invoiced or chased for payment by the management company.
There is nothing in the lease about paying costs for service charge recovery, am I right in thinking that ;
A: I can pay the management co directly (as per named parties in my lease)
B: They can't charge fees without first getting a court order
C: The debt collection company has no privity of contract with me and if they want paying it should be by the management company who presumably signed a contract with them?
I hope this makes some sense?
If they apply through the courts for a distress warrant, the conversation will go like this.
Them: "We'd like a distress warrant for this amount for an unpaid fee." (i.e. Bailiffs)
Your sol: "As soon as my client was asked to pay this, he paid directly in full."
Bench "So it's been paid in full already at the first asking?"
Your sol: "Yes your worship"
Bench (to them) "Sod off and stop wasting our time."
Or something pretty similar.
The management company have messed up their admin. They used the debt company just to get their money.
If they get a cheque in the post sent by recorded delivery, they will cash it as they of course want their money, and tell the debt company to stop. Also, you can tell the debt company to get lost as you have already paid.
Most of these companies work on commission only anyway, so as soon as they know that they wont get paid through them, they will give up. Job done.
Is your managment company a limited company? What does it say in their memo & arts.?
Did they really not invoice you or did you just not get the invoice? Did they invoice anyone else?
Your lease seems to say that you must pay whether demanded or not, this is quite common and of course is tricky if the amount hasn't been demanded. What happened before the three years - had you just moved in? Is the service charge normally paid monthly by tenants or is it a lump sum usually demanded at the end of each FY?
I'd be slightly careful about arguing the toss too much - you'll probably find that you're liable for interest at 4% above base rate from 7 or 14 days after the due date (whether demanded or not) so if you get too arsey about it they might well demand that - how much would that be?
I doube that there is anything that precludes the management co from using a debt collector if they can demonstrate that the amount outstanding hasn't been paid which brings me back round to did they invoice and you just didn't get it?
Did they really not invoice you or did you just not get the invoice? Did they invoice anyone else?
Your lease seems to say that you must pay whether demanded or not, this is quite common and of course is tricky if the amount hasn't been demanded. What happened before the three years - had you just moved in? Is the service charge normally paid monthly by tenants or is it a lump sum usually demanded at the end of each FY?
I'd be slightly careful about arguing the toss too much - you'll probably find that you're liable for interest at 4% above base rate from 7 or 14 days after the due date (whether demanded or not) so if you get too arsey about it they might well demand that - how much would that be?
I doube that there is anything that precludes the management co from using a debt collector if they can demonstrate that the amount outstanding hasn't been paid which brings me back round to did they invoice and you just didn't get it?
Edited by Piglet on Friday 15th February 08:16
fatboy b said:
You'll probably have a black mark on your credit rating now as well - even after you've paid up.
No, the credit agencies don't do that - at least, the director of the one I told I'd have in court said his company didn't - threatened my MiL with court for a bill that wasn't hers, I advised him any further communications would be deemed harassment and I'd instigate a private prosecution against him for it. I left that answerphone message at about 8.20am on a Monday and I had a call back at around 9.13am that day.. It's amazing how quickly they can resolve issues when they want to.
What I put in my company's T&C's:
"The purchaser shall indemnify and repay the Company in respect of all reasonable fees incurred by them to agents and/or solicitors to recover the monies due."
Unless there is something like this in your lease then unless they actually issue court proceedings against you they can go and play with themselves. You are obliged to pay the principal debt and nothing else.
"The purchaser shall indemnify and repay the Company in respect of all reasonable fees incurred by them to agents and/or solicitors to recover the monies due."
Unless there is something like this in your lease then unless they actually issue court proceedings against you they can go and play with themselves. You are obliged to pay the principal debt and nothing else.
I receieved, out of the blue, a letter from the debt recovery agency in late November, early December last year. Since I had never heard of them I wrote to them asking them to explain who they were and why I owed them money. My management company responded to that letter, including a summary invoice of the arrears, advising me to check my lease for details. Since I don't like owing money and I always pay my way, I got the docs from my solicitors and was able to confirm that the management company were on the lease.
The arrears for 3 years came to about £1800 which thanks to christmas and some work I had recently had done on my car, was more than I had at that time. I wrote to them offering a third down and the remainder over one year by installments at periods of their suiting (monthly, quarterly etc) but they refused. I upped my offer to half now and the other half in 6 months but still refused.
I cashed in my small change collection, took my Christmas money from friends and family and also came into a small amount via a share dividend that I hadn't been receiving for 6 years and with some budgetting I offered them the full arrears after my next payday, which is today.
In the mean time the debt collection agency contacting my mortgage lender and they sent me a snotty letter saying if I don't pay it, they will and they will add it to my mortgage, which I played merry hell about with them. Sounds like subjudicy (sp?) to me.
Anyway, a cheque for the total arrears but no costs has been sent by recorded delivery this lunchtime and a copy of the letter and cheque sent to my mortgage lender.
Hopefully this will satisfy!
The arrears for 3 years came to about £1800 which thanks to christmas and some work I had recently had done on my car, was more than I had at that time. I wrote to them offering a third down and the remainder over one year by installments at periods of their suiting (monthly, quarterly etc) but they refused. I upped my offer to half now and the other half in 6 months but still refused.
I cashed in my small change collection, took my Christmas money from friends and family and also came into a small amount via a share dividend that I hadn't been receiving for 6 years and with some budgetting I offered them the full arrears after my next payday, which is today.
In the mean time the debt collection agency contacting my mortgage lender and they sent me a snotty letter saying if I don't pay it, they will and they will add it to my mortgage, which I played merry hell about with them. Sounds like subjudicy (sp?) to me.
Anyway, a cheque for the total arrears but no costs has been sent by recorded delivery this lunchtime and a copy of the letter and cheque sent to my mortgage lender.
Hopefully this will satisfy!
I'd be interested to know if anyone is aware of any regulatory bodies which govern management companies. I've been in dispute with mine for almost two years now. I was forced to pay up last year because I was re-mortgaging and an up-to-date statement was required, though I wrote to the management company stating that it was being paid under duress.
I've been in touch with various consumer media about it, but no-one seems interested.
I've been in touch with various consumer media about it, but no-one seems interested.
Ask these people here: http://www.lease-advice.org/
I am a Director of a property management company and as a leaseholder you have certain duties but your management company does seem to be acting in a heavy handed way - a court would take a positive view of your offers to pay so I wouldn't let it worry you too much, if you've paid then it would be a fine grade of fool who would continue to pursue you for costs if they hadn't taken the oportunity to invoice you promptly, regardless of what the lease says.
I am a Director of a property management company and as a leaseholder you have certain duties but your management company does seem to be acting in a heavy handed way - a court would take a positive view of your offers to pay so I wouldn't let it worry you too much, if you've paid then it would be a fine grade of fool who would continue to pursue you for costs if they hadn't taken the oportunity to invoice you promptly, regardless of what the lease says.
silversun said:
I'd be interested to know if anyone is aware of any regulatory bodies which govern management companies. I've been in dispute with mine for almost two years now. I was forced to pay up last year because I was re-mortgaging and an up-to-date statement was required, though I wrote to the management company stating that it was being paid under duress.
I've been in touch with various consumer media about it, but no-one seems interested.
A leaseholder can use the LVT, the LVT is a biased body which was introduced by Prescott's office to help the little man fight the big companies. You can pay £100 for a hearing, present your own case and they can't award costs exceeding £500 against you even if you loose. The LVT is biased in your favour, massively, unless you're asking for something silly you will probably win, it's a new labia leftie attack the establishment thing.I've been in touch with various consumer media about it, but no-one seems interested.
Don't be put off when you read the previous case reports, we had a case recently, chap put up a very weak argument about some maintenance, acted the pratt at the hearing, total cost to him was a couple of days (he's retired) and £500 for a survey . . . we ended up with a legal bill of £20k plus days of time lost plus we had to refund him some money. He is a complete knob jockey and a chancer, trying it on, but the LVT still found in his favour. It's madness.
You can find the scallywags here: http://www.rpts.gov.uk/about_us/lvt.htm
Would recommend you talk to the people in my last post first, the LVT are a last resort and will make you as popular as a wasp in a bike helmet with your management company.
Jasandjules said:
fatboy b said:
You'll probably have a black mark on your credit rating now as well - even after you've paid up.
No, the credit agencies don't do that - at least, the director of the one I told I'd have in court said his company didn't - threatened my MiL with court for a bill that wasn't hers, I advised him any further communications would be deemed harassment and I'd instigate a private prosecution against him for it. I left that answerphone message at about 8.20am on a Monday and I had a call back at around 9.13am that day.. It's amazing how quickly they can resolve issues when they want to.
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