S1 vs S2 vs VX220 (sorry for swearing!)
Discussion
Hi all,
Looking at changing my 320D Sport for something a little more, err, fun! I've asked questions before and have read the FAQ's, but just wanted to clarify a couple of points.
I was recently riding round in an S1 Elise - lovely little car, but pretty darn noisy and virtually impossible to get of when in a car park due to the sills/doors. Is the S2 (base model and Sports Tourer in particular) and VX220 (n/a) any quieter, easier to get in/out of and generally a more useable alterantive?
Also, my commute is 40 miles a day on A and B roads all the way, plus a short trip through town. I imagine this is a pretty good commute for these cars, although the roads round here in Bucks are absolutely atrocious. For this reason I'd like the "softest" model possible - all the great attributes of the Elise/VX but I can do without the race suspension thanks very much! So which models should I be on the lookout for?
Thirdly, fuel economy. I'm currently getting around 400-450 miles from my 320D for about £60 worth of fuel, which equates to 35mpg. How much does it cost to fill up an Elise/VX220, and when being driven relatively sedately, how many miles can you get from a tank? I'm talking motorway at a constant 70mph, but a realistic drive without redlining it in every gear!
Finally, how do the S2 and VX220 compare to the S1 in terms of luggage carrying ability. I've only ever seen an S1 boot, so a comparison to that would be good - pictures would be even better! I'd like to be able to use it to drive to our place in Southern Brittany, so some luggage carrying ability would be very useful!
Cheers in advance,
Mike
Looking at changing my 320D Sport for something a little more, err, fun! I've asked questions before and have read the FAQ's, but just wanted to clarify a couple of points.
I was recently riding round in an S1 Elise - lovely little car, but pretty darn noisy and virtually impossible to get of when in a car park due to the sills/doors. Is the S2 (base model and Sports Tourer in particular) and VX220 (n/a) any quieter, easier to get in/out of and generally a more useable alterantive?
Also, my commute is 40 miles a day on A and B roads all the way, plus a short trip through town. I imagine this is a pretty good commute for these cars, although the roads round here in Bucks are absolutely atrocious. For this reason I'd like the "softest" model possible - all the great attributes of the Elise/VX but I can do without the race suspension thanks very much! So which models should I be on the lookout for?
Thirdly, fuel economy. I'm currently getting around 400-450 miles from my 320D for about £60 worth of fuel, which equates to 35mpg. How much does it cost to fill up an Elise/VX220, and when being driven relatively sedately, how many miles can you get from a tank? I'm talking motorway at a constant 70mph, but a realistic drive without redlining it in every gear!
Finally, how do the S2 and VX220 compare to the S1 in terms of luggage carrying ability. I've only ever seen an S1 boot, so a comparison to that would be good - pictures would be even better! I'd like to be able to use it to drive to our place in Southern Brittany, so some luggage carrying ability would be very useful!
Cheers in advance,
Mike
The S2 and VX have slightly lower sills so are a little easier to get in and out of but not much. The cars gradually got quieter as the years went by. There was extra sound deadening put in in the initial S2, then again in 2002 and again in 2004. There was also an aftermarket "touring pack" which added sound deadening. They will never make good GTs though.
K-series engined cars give about 40mpg under normal (sensible) driving conditions, Toyota engined ones about 35mpg. The K-series engined cars only have 32l tanks (I think they're 42 on the Toyota engined cars) so you're looking at 250 miles or so from a tank. If you drive hard all the time, drop both mpg figures by 10.
The S2 has a bigger boot than the S1, although its usefulness is limited by the size of the boot opening. The S2's boot is about the same depth as the S1's but fills the entirety of the inside of the rear clam as there is no boot liner. The battery is in there too which eats a bit of space.
Part way through he S2's life they switched to using the VX220's roof, often called a "short tail" roof, which has less tendency to leak and is easier to put on/take off.
Forgot the VX... the VX220 is probably closest to an early S2 in terms of comfort. Can't remember how big the boot is though. The turbo is seriously quick.
K-series engined cars give about 40mpg under normal (sensible) driving conditions, Toyota engined ones about 35mpg. The K-series engined cars only have 32l tanks (I think they're 42 on the Toyota engined cars) so you're looking at 250 miles or so from a tank. If you drive hard all the time, drop both mpg figures by 10.
The S2 has a bigger boot than the S1, although its usefulness is limited by the size of the boot opening. The S2's boot is about the same depth as the S1's but fills the entirety of the inside of the rear clam as there is no boot liner. The battery is in there too which eats a bit of space.
Part way through he S2's life they switched to using the VX220's roof, often called a "short tail" roof, which has less tendency to leak and is easier to put on/take off.
Forgot the VX... the VX220 is probably closest to an early S2 in terms of comfort. Can't remember how big the boot is though. The turbo is seriously quick.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 20th February 14:55
Mike_C said:
No. Chance. I don't want an MX5, or an MG TF - I want an Elise or VX220, if possible.
If I cant have the real thing, i'd rather a 330Ci, not some halfway point car...!
I have to say, I don't really understand that attitude. The MX5 or MG TF are both extremely good sports cars that will run rings about a 3-series in driving involvement terms.If I cant have the real thing, i'd rather a 330Ci, not some halfway point car...!
Still, each to their own I guess.
Hi Mike
Can only really comment on the VX ownership (I have a Turbo) but I did drive an Elise S2 for about three months as well.
Fuel consumption should be between 28 and 40 mpg, but may be less if you drive erratically, continually floor it or do a lot of track days! The boot on the VX is larger (206 cu. ft. in the normally aspirated VX), but everything is relative of course! Servicing will vary depending on where you go and which service it is, but intervals are once every year/10,000 miles (whichever is earlier) generally expect between £130 and £250 from a Vauxhall 'VX220' dealer or a specialist. Tyres are around £100 fitted a corner. Feedback I've had from others is that insuring a VX cost them around 50-75% of insuring the equivalent Elise. Minor things to consider is that VXs never came with air-con or electric windows, but all had driver airbags. The VX engines are known to be torquier and you won't need to work the gears as much to get the performance (especially compared with the Toyota-engined Elises). The Astra sourced engines also have a pretty good reputation for reliability (I've done 35k and it still hasn't missed a beat :-) ). Obtaining non-service parts for a VX might be more difficult, however.
Best advice I can give is go and test drive some and compare!
JJ
PS I agree with your sentiments on the MX5... nice cars for what they are, but not true sports cars. Whichever choice you make you'll be pleased you didn't settle for a Mazda ;-)
Can only really comment on the VX ownership (I have a Turbo) but I did drive an Elise S2 for about three months as well.
Fuel consumption should be between 28 and 40 mpg, but may be less if you drive erratically, continually floor it or do a lot of track days! The boot on the VX is larger (206 cu. ft. in the normally aspirated VX), but everything is relative of course! Servicing will vary depending on where you go and which service it is, but intervals are once every year/10,000 miles (whichever is earlier) generally expect between £130 and £250 from a Vauxhall 'VX220' dealer or a specialist. Tyres are around £100 fitted a corner. Feedback I've had from others is that insuring a VX cost them around 50-75% of insuring the equivalent Elise. Minor things to consider is that VXs never came with air-con or electric windows, but all had driver airbags. The VX engines are known to be torquier and you won't need to work the gears as much to get the performance (especially compared with the Toyota-engined Elises). The Astra sourced engines also have a pretty good reputation for reliability (I've done 35k and it still hasn't missed a beat :-) ). Obtaining non-service parts for a VX might be more difficult, however.
Best advice I can give is go and test drive some and compare!
JJ
PS I agree with your sentiments on the MX5... nice cars for what they are, but not true sports cars. Whichever choice you make you'll be pleased you didn't settle for a Mazda ;-)
Edited by jazzyjeff on Wednesday 20th February 15:01
Edited by jazzyjeff on Wednesday 20th February 15:02
I've an S2, which I can comment on, the others I'll let their owners give their opinion.
S2 is still noisy in a nice kind of way, you can hold a conversation with a passenger but it is slightly strained. Luggage wise if you're using the boot, expect to get about a couple of laptop size cases or around 3 carrier bags. If you've got the passenger seat then you really can do an average weekly shop of 6-12 carriers no problem. Big items such as flatpack furniture, forget it.
Getting in and out just takes practice, first time seems near impossible, but live with it for a few days and you'll master it no problem.
Mines my only car and I live with it fine - really you need to get the roof down and get out in the country to fully appreciate the elise at its best though, that's what makes it all the worthwhile.
HTH
S2 is still noisy in a nice kind of way, you can hold a conversation with a passenger but it is slightly strained. Luggage wise if you're using the boot, expect to get about a couple of laptop size cases or around 3 carrier bags. If you've got the passenger seat then you really can do an average weekly shop of 6-12 carriers no problem. Big items such as flatpack furniture, forget it.
Getting in and out just takes practice, first time seems near impossible, but live with it for a few days and you'll master it no problem.
Mines my only car and I live with it fine - really you need to get the roof down and get out in the country to fully appreciate the elise at its best though, that's what makes it all the worthwhile.
HTH
The MX5 quote might be a little harsh... but I think he's suggesting that driving any Elise derivative requires a bit more commitment than mass produced cars.
They are all quite noisy... as you are essentially sitting in an aluminium can, with varying degrees of noise insulation, but the later cars, especially with a touring pack offer more sound insulation, also beware that some aftermarket exhausts and induction kits increase the noise (but that can be part of the fun). S2 Elises and VXs (i believe) have slightly lower sills which make getting in and out a bit easier, but I like most, am just a bit choosier about where I park these days.
You haven't mentioned budget, but for your commute, if you can only stretch to an S1, one with the S2 suspension upgrade, which is a bit more compliant might be a good idea. If you have a bit more cash to splash, you might even want to consider the Lotus Europa, which are looking quite good value secondhand and is pitched at those who want the Elise experience with a little less compromise.
Fuel economy is always good news with these cars, as the lack of weight means the engine isn't worked as hard as in most other cars. Expect to average 40mpg (maybe more) with a K series S1/S2 and 35mpg on a 111R (toyota engine). Fuel tanks are 36 litres on S1s and 40 litres on S2s, but given the fuel economy around 300 miles on a tank is realistic (but possibly 100-ish on track).
Boots seem bigger on the S2s than the S1, but ... lets face it, the boot size isn't a strong point. However, if you use squashy bags not bulky ones, its possible to get a weeks clothes for two, a small tent in there at least. I'm sure others manage more!
They are all quite noisy... as you are essentially sitting in an aluminium can, with varying degrees of noise insulation, but the later cars, especially with a touring pack offer more sound insulation, also beware that some aftermarket exhausts and induction kits increase the noise (but that can be part of the fun). S2 Elises and VXs (i believe) have slightly lower sills which make getting in and out a bit easier, but I like most, am just a bit choosier about where I park these days.
You haven't mentioned budget, but for your commute, if you can only stretch to an S1, one with the S2 suspension upgrade, which is a bit more compliant might be a good idea. If you have a bit more cash to splash, you might even want to consider the Lotus Europa, which are looking quite good value secondhand and is pitched at those who want the Elise experience with a little less compromise.
Fuel economy is always good news with these cars, as the lack of weight means the engine isn't worked as hard as in most other cars. Expect to average 40mpg (maybe more) with a K series S1/S2 and 35mpg on a 111R (toyota engine). Fuel tanks are 36 litres on S1s and 40 litres on S2s, but given the fuel economy around 300 miles on a tank is realistic (but possibly 100-ish on track).
Boots seem bigger on the S2s than the S1, but ... lets face it, the boot size isn't a strong point. However, if you use squashy bags not bulky ones, its possible to get a weeks clothes for two, a small tent in there at least. I'm sure others manage more!
I have had an S1 for some time,but I have always had a sensible car aswell - I think that most people would recognise that the Elise is poor on storage and doesn't cope particularly well with weather extremes.
I have always found that using the car with the roof on takes alot out of the experience and its no quick job to put on or remove.I have removed the stereo (which you can't hear anyway) and leave the car with the roof off - there is nothing to steal with the radio gone.
S1's are not nearly as good on standard Koni's.
They need to warm up if you want to kane them.
Take a test drive, they are good fun and make any journey a bit special!
I have always found that using the car with the roof on takes alot out of the experience and its no quick job to put on or remove.I have removed the stereo (which you can't hear anyway) and leave the car with the roof off - there is nothing to steal with the radio gone.
S1's are not nearly as good on standard Koni's.
They need to warm up if you want to kane them.
Take a test drive, they are good fun and make any journey a bit special!
jazzyjeff said:
PS I agree with your sentiments on the MX5... nice cars for what they are, but not true sports cars. Whichever choice you make you'll be pleased you didn't settle for a Mazda ;-)
I know off topic and not helpful to the OP but I feel I must argue against this comment! The MX5 is a classic sports-car set-up of 2-seater front-engined RWD - it has a sub-9 second 0-62mph and goes round corners like stink. I am biased though!Edited by jazzyjeff on Wednesday 20th February 15:01
Edited by jazzyjeff on Wednesday 20th February 15:02
I imagine either the Elise or VX220 might be ok....
Hi guys, thanks for all the replies. I'll try and respond to all your points...
Why no to an MX5? I just don't like them i'm afraid. I've heard all the arguments for them, but they're just not for me.
The MGTF is a better prospect, but I found it a bit cramped - strangely, the S1 Elise seems to fit me better!
Back to the real cars in question...
I have around £10k to spend; could potentially strecth that a bit, maybe £11k, but I'd rather not if possible.
For that price I've seen S1's, S2 Touring's and VX220 (n/a) but most appear to be sold.
I think the S1 is out of the question for me - I love these cars, but I want the most practical and comfortable version possible. This may go against the Elise ethos a bit, but even in this guise they're still a lightweight, fun sportscar but I need the comfort and practicality to make it a realisitc daily drive.
A Europa would be the ideal compromise, but at the moment they're more £ than I'm willing to spend. Maybe if I sold the bike I would, but I love that as well i'm afraid!!
So, back to the S2 and VX. Good to hear they're a bit easier to get in and out of - good news is I don't park in a car park every day and I have both a garage (bike) and carport (S2/VX) to keep them in overnight. I don't need a massive boot - I have access to a Renault Grande Espace for big stuff and the missus has a 206 HDi GTi which is a decent size, but I'd like top use it for weekends away and such like for the two of us! But hey, if we can fit our weekend gear in 2 bike panniers it should fit in an S2/VX boot!
Are there any other practicality issues to note then? And is the hardtop essential for year round use? If the cars i'm looking at don't come with one, how easy are they to source and how much will it set me back?
Cheers!
Why no to an MX5? I just don't like them i'm afraid. I've heard all the arguments for them, but they're just not for me.
The MGTF is a better prospect, but I found it a bit cramped - strangely, the S1 Elise seems to fit me better!
Back to the real cars in question...
I have around £10k to spend; could potentially strecth that a bit, maybe £11k, but I'd rather not if possible.
For that price I've seen S1's, S2 Touring's and VX220 (n/a) but most appear to be sold.
I think the S1 is out of the question for me - I love these cars, but I want the most practical and comfortable version possible. This may go against the Elise ethos a bit, but even in this guise they're still a lightweight, fun sportscar but I need the comfort and practicality to make it a realisitc daily drive.
A Europa would be the ideal compromise, but at the moment they're more £ than I'm willing to spend. Maybe if I sold the bike I would, but I love that as well i'm afraid!!
So, back to the S2 and VX. Good to hear they're a bit easier to get in and out of - good news is I don't park in a car park every day and I have both a garage (bike) and carport (S2/VX) to keep them in overnight. I don't need a massive boot - I have access to a Renault Grande Espace for big stuff and the missus has a 206 HDi GTi which is a decent size, but I'd like top use it for weekends away and such like for the two of us! But hey, if we can fit our weekend gear in 2 bike panniers it should fit in an S2/VX boot!
Are there any other practicality issues to note then? And is the hardtop essential for year round use? If the cars i'm looking at don't come with one, how easy are they to source and how much will it set me back?
Cheers!
2 comments having read the above so far.
a) Regardless of whether you like the MX5 or not, they are excellent sportscars and probably have better handling/dynamics than a std VX220, and almost as good as a std S1. They don't have the power/weight though, so without mods won't be anywhere near as quick.
b) You can get a good early S2 for 11-12k. Look hard and be selective, but they're out there.
a) Regardless of whether you like the MX5 or not, they are excellent sportscars and probably have better handling/dynamics than a std VX220, and almost as good as a std S1. They don't have the power/weight though, so without mods won't be anywhere near as quick.
b) You can get a good early S2 for 11-12k. Look hard and be selective, but they're out there.
For your money you will get into a decent S1 111S mode - 143bhp from its VVC engine and a close ratio gearbox. Better seats than the standard, too.
You would just about get into an early S2 120 bhp version. Go for one with the factory 'touring pack' - this includes leather seats, 4 speakers(!), carpet mats, the alarm which I don't think was standard on the base model even in 2000 and a little bit of sound deadening. If noise is a problem see if you can find one with standard induction and exhaust as this will be significantly quieter than aftermarket ones.
If it were my money, and I was going for another S2, I'd strech my budget to a short-tail S2 and probably the 111S - but realistally you're not going to get much change out of £14k for a good'un.
Can't comment on the VX220 I'm afraid, I would imagine it's very similar to the S2 but the fuel economy may suffer as the 2.0 engine is a heavier lump.
If I was actually buying another Elise - I'd be looking for a good S1 Sport 135, or maybe a Sport 160. But I'm not!
You would just about get into an early S2 120 bhp version. Go for one with the factory 'touring pack' - this includes leather seats, 4 speakers(!), carpet mats, the alarm which I don't think was standard on the base model even in 2000 and a little bit of sound deadening. If noise is a problem see if you can find one with standard induction and exhaust as this will be significantly quieter than aftermarket ones.
If it were my money, and I was going for another S2, I'd strech my budget to a short-tail S2 and probably the 111S - but realistally you're not going to get much change out of £14k for a good'un.
Can't comment on the VX220 I'm afraid, I would imagine it's very similar to the S2 but the fuel economy may suffer as the 2.0 engine is a heavier lump.
If I was actually buying another Elise - I'd be looking for a good S1 Sport 135, or maybe a Sport 160. But I'm not!
I live in Suffolk which has some of the worst back roads imaginable. My 111R with stock suspension just about copes fine... It's when the wheel get hooked into the pot hole that it can be unnerving...
I'm getting my dampers replaced this week to get rid of the clonky noises. But that is just a personal thing (I commute in the car every other day) and doesn't actually affect the ride quality.
After a while you learn where the pot holes are and subconciously drive around them.
If all else fails you can actually report the pot holes to the council... in fact I did this for 3 particularly bad ones on my commute that suddenly appeared in January... 3 weeks later they were filled in ! Result
111R is good model for first time Elise owners I think.
I'm getting my dampers replaced this week to get rid of the clonky noises. But that is just a personal thing (I commute in the car every other day) and doesn't actually affect the ride quality.
After a while you learn where the pot holes are and subconciously drive around them.
If all else fails you can actually report the pot holes to the council... in fact I did this for 3 particularly bad ones on my commute that suddenly appeared in January... 3 weeks later they were filled in ! Result
111R is good model for first time Elise owners I think.
Edited by NathanE on Wednesday 20th February 18:12
LivinLaVidaLotus said:
3 carrier bags in the boot? Bloody hell, you using bin bags? I can get at least 6 or 7 in the boot.
My 111R I get 32-34mpg combined usually, although the last tank didn't last quite so long, as it was all used for blating about in the sun oin 2nd cam.
I usually manage 1 for the head, 1 for arms/legs and 1 for the torso. 3 bags.My 111R I get 32-34mpg combined usually, although the last tank didn't last quite so long, as it was all used for blating about in the sun oin 2nd cam.
Nah seriously, you're probably right, I could probably fit double, but I've a habit of not pushing them all the way to the wiring of the lights. I'm sure I could, but for some reason prefer not to.
To the OP, Livin and I collectively suggest you could manage between 3 and 7 carrier bags in the boot.
Edited by SeanyD on Wednesday 20th February 19:12
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff