Filter Choice Debate?

[mlw-tvr]

Was debating with my brother the other day on what choice of filter for my 4.5 chim, i was going to replace the standard pipercross filter with a new one and my brother said that they were rubbish compared with the K & N filter.

Has anybody fitted the K & N filter and thought it was much better than the standard one?

Cheers

mlw-tvr

[tvrbob]

I thought K & N filters had insufficient air flow for these engines. I could be wrong; it was something I picked up from PH a couple of years ago.

[That Daddy]

No way is a K&N an improvment over a clean oiled Pipercross unit,the size of the filter alone is more than than the air this engine can consume,the Pipercross unit will filter out smaller dust particles too providing it is maintained correctlyand no i am not anti K&N its just not a worthwhile upgrade over the standard unit fitted.

Edited by That Daddy on Tuesday 26th February 11:58

[TVR SUPPLIES]

That Daddy said:

No way is a K&N an improvment over a clean oiled Pipercross unit,the size of the filter alone is more than than the air this engine can consume,the Pipercross unit will filter out smaller dust particles too providing it is maintained correctlyand no i am not anti K&N its just not a worthwhile upgrade over the standard unit fitted.

Wise words indeed,as always from Simon,.There are several filters available for the Chim nowadays,there even are cheaper pattern foam filters being made for TVR's now!The pipercross high flow filters are the best quality and performance in our opinion.Weve tried both(K&N and Pipercross) on the dyno and theres no difference in performance.The pipercross filters are easier to clean,and seal better we found,as well as giving better dirt retention.If you want the high flow pipercross filter then look for the red foam on one side,this appears as a red band on the cylinder filter the Chim uses.
And before anybody reading this thinks we're biased,we could sell alternatives to those that we do,but we choose not to for the above reasons,amongst others

[spend]

Does that all hold true when dynoing the higher power engines? I thought it had been said in the past that the Pipercross became a problem @300bhp, or is that an urban legend type thing?

Dave

[TVR SUPPLIES]

spend said:

Does that all hold true when dynoing the higher power engines? I thought it had been said in the past that the Pipercross became a problem @300bhp, or is that an urban legend type thing?

Dave

Very much the urban legend type thing i'm afraid.The cinic in me might suspect it originated from a rumour promoted by someone who sells K&N perhaps!
I ran a Griff 500 up to 354bhp on TCS Dyno,Dave.I used a few different kinds of filter on the way to that figure,and none caused a restriction because of the medium they used.The K&N proved very diffcult to get a good seal,so it lost horsepower when it drew in warm air from the engine bay when on the dyno.This isnt a problem with the cylinder filter the chim uses of course,but as the Pipercross seemed to filter dirt better without restriction then that became my favourite!The fact that they are both much cheaper and easier to clean,as previously mentioned,also helps

Edited by TVR SUPPLIES on Wednesday 27th February 06:49

[Pablo T]

I was also thinking of changing to a k&n as I was not aware that the foam pipercross filters could be cleaned. What with and how do you people out ther clean yours ?

[Pupp]

TVR SUPPLIES said:

as the Pipercross seemed to filter dirt better without restriction then that became my favourite!

The key word there is 'seemed'. Any actual empiric data?

No axe to grind and like Pipercross filters (have used 'em on bikes and cars with no issues... except on my Chimaera where, for some reason, they *seemed* to get raggy very quickly and more than one split around the clamping ring (oo'er)

K&N for me and quite happy with it

[900T-R]

So let me get this straight - the Pipercross filter sold by the usual suspects is to be considered an 'upgrade' over the OE Pipercross filter, or is it just a question of the old one being, well, old?

[chrispitman]

To clean the Foam Filter I had some Filter Cleaner from Opie Oils its like a solvent you just soak the filter and ring it out, do out side though it's solvent based. Then got a spray tin of Motocross Sticky oil and sprayed the whole thing. Cost about £15 and I would say theres enough for about 4 cleans.

[rev-erend]

One thing puts me off foam filters..

Seeing CIRKS engine bay after a backfire (London Thunder traffic) caused a minor under bonnet fire..

Foam just melts but I think the cotton and gauze would stand more of a chance.. for a while at least.

[That Daddy]

rev-erend said:

One thing puts me off foam filters..

Seeing CIRKS engine bay after a backfire (London Thunder traffic) caused a minor under bonnet fire..

Foam just melts but I think the cotton and gauze would stand more of a chance.. for a while at least.

Nooo,thats not going to happen on a Chim,its just to far away from the intake manifold(hence why this as never happened on a Chim)as far as cleaning is concerned on the stock filter soak in Jizer keep doing this until the cleaner runs red/pink and hose from the inside out(flushing out the dirt)let it stand to dry then re-oil i use a motorcycle MotoX dirt retention oil(more effective)and clean once a year,old a K&N up to the light and you can see loads of small holes in the cotton gauze(yes even when oiled)that cant be much good at stopping dust particles can it?i stopped using K&N filters when i found after a few months the pair on my 45DCOE webbers started letting thru small amounts of dust particles,when you wiped the trumpets you could feel the gritty paste under your finger tipsnot good when you have spent a fortune on the motor and your filters are letting dust in to slowly grind away your piston rings and borescured with a pair of Pipercross foam filters,this same thing also occurred on a Ford Essex i used,i dont like em all IMHO of course,but you can use whatever you pleasei seem to remember ITG foam filters were also good.

[TVR SUPPLIES]

Interesting thoughts and comments from all

Pablo T- Pipercross foam filters are designed to be cleaned,and in the case of the Chimaera filter it comes with a can of spray filter oil as standard,both for initial application,and re-application once cleaned.We have found this contains easily enough for the mid interval 6k inspect/clean,so the filter really does easily last the 12k miles in top condition.

Pupp- I have no emperic data for the filtration properties,but it was clear to see which filter held more dirt from entering the inlet after comparable mileage and in comparable conditions,and at 6k miles(time for service and clean) the pipercross still did not cause a restriction in flow,hence my comments.

900T-R The latest Pipercross filter is the best yet from this company,they claim up to 30% more flow,as well as outperforming cotton filters(take a look on their website).You'll have to draw your own conclusions as to wheather TVR's own filters were any different in spec,but these latest ones are quite a recent product compared to how long TVR had been using Pipercross.As far as the 'upgrade' thoughts go-personally i would not change my filter for either the Pipercross or a K&N as an upgrade unless it was due.

Cheers all

[That Daddy]

TVR SUPPLIES said:

Interesting thoughts and comments from all

Pablo T- Pipercross foam filters are designed to be cleaned,and in the case of the Chimaera filter it comes with a can of spray filter oil as standard,both for initial application,and re-application once cleaned.We have found this contains easily enough for the mid interval 6k inspect/clean,so the filter really does easily last the 12k miles in top condition.

Pupp- I have no emperic data for the filtration properties,but it was clear to see which filter held more dirt from entering the inlet after comparable mileage and in comparable conditions,and at 6k miles(time for service and clean) the pipercross still did not cause a restriction in flow,hence my comments.

900T-R The latest Pipercross filter is the best yet from this company,they claim up to 30% more flow,as well as outperforming cotton filters(take a look on their website).You'll have to draw your own conclusions as to wheather TVR's own filters were any different in spec,but these latest ones are quite a recent product compared to how long TVR had been using Pipercross.As far as the 'upgrade' thoughts go-personally i would not change my filter for either the Pipercross or a K&N as an upgrade unless it was due.

Cheers all

Wise words

[ACT]

WE stock Pipercross and K&N , K&N are most popular when supplying with induction kits despite the option for either type.
Our own tests have shown that both filters are comparable when clean/ new but after 1000 mile the K&N flowed better, the oily surface of the pipercross meant that to front face was caked in debris/ road dirt, summary: Both filters are good K&N needs less maintenance/ won't clog as quickly, & I'm also unbiased as I have both on the shelf.

[daz the plumber]

i have a RAMAIR filter from tvrshop if any one wants it ,its only done 150 miles .i only changed because of a upgrade. it looks like the pipercross thanks daz

[That Daddy]

ACT said:

WE stock Pipercross and K&N , K&N are most popular when supplying with induction kits despite the option for either type.
Our own tests have shown that both filters are comparable when clean/ new but after 1000 mile the K&N flowed better, the oily surface of the pipercross meant that to front face was caked in debris/ road dirt, summary: Both filters are good K&N needs less maintenance/ won't clog as quickly, & I'm also unbiased as I have both on the shelf.

What,you mean the pipercross had got that dirty in 1000 miles to cause a noticable restriction,where was it driving thru the Sahara desert?

[TVR SUPPLIES]

That Daddy said:

ACT said:

WE stock Pipercross and K&N , K&N are most popular when supplying with induction kits despite the option for either type.
Our own tests have shown that both filters are comparable when clean/ new but after 1000 mile the K&N flowed better, the oily surface of the pipercross meant that to front face was caked in debris/ road dirt, summary: Both filters are good K&N needs less maintenance/ won't clog as quickly, & I'm also unbiased as I have both on the shelf.

What,you mean the pipercross had got that dirty in 1000 miles to cause a noticable restriction,where was it driving thru the Sahara desert?

I agree with you Simon,thats certainly not our findings for sure,I want my filter to retain dirt,but i've never got it to clog and cause restriction after 1k miles!!,hence we chose to sell Pipercross,even though there would be more profit in selling a cotton type filter!.
I've quite literally done over a hundred runs on TCS dyno,as well as others,many of them,infact i'd say the majority,were experimenting with the induction,where there is an awfull lot to be gained if you get it right.I used several different filters along the way,and honestly feel the new Pipercross to be the best performer of the lot.I dont want to wreck my engine with iducted dirt,but i do want maximum flow for the 6k miles between services!

[That Daddy]

TVR SUPPLIES said:

That Daddy said:

ACT said:

WE stock Pipercross and K&N , K&N are most popular when supplying with induction kits despite the option for either type.
Our own tests have shown that both filters are comparable when clean/ new but after 1000 mile the K&N flowed better, the oily surface of the pipercross meant that to front face was caked in debris/ road dirt, summary: Both filters are good K&N needs less maintenance/ won't clog as quickly, & I'm also unbiased as I have both on the shelf.

What,you mean the pipercross had got that dirty in 1000 miles to cause a noticable restriction,where was it driving thru the Sahara desert?

I agree with you Simon,thats certainly not our findings for sure,I want my filter to retain dirt,but i've never got it to clog and cause restriction after 1k miles!!,hence we chose to sell Pipercross,even though there would be more profit in selling a cotton type filter!.
I've quite literally done over a hundred runs on TCS dyno,as well as others,many of them,infact i'd say the majority,were experimenting with the induction,where there is an awfull lot to be gained if you get it right.I used several different filters along the way,and honestly feel the new Pipercross to be the best performer of the lot.I dont want to wreck my engine with iducted dirt,but i do want maximum flow for the 6k miles between services!

Certainlyi would say the PiperX probably gets dirtier quicker(its covered in oil,and more of it)the K&N as a very slight sniff/film of oil in the fabric that is not wet to the touch(probably why it does not get dirty as soon)at the end of the day as long as the filter is stopping the nasties getting in to the intake and not causing a restriction and doing its job thats good enough for me,but i will stick to oiled foam rather than oiled gauzeits down to personal choice

Edited by That Daddy on Thursday 28th February 14:47

[blitzracing]

I used to race off road buggies on highly dustly chalk downland, and the inside of the carbs used to be covered with talc like dust with K&N's, so the filtration was not that good, unless you wanted a free rebore. The foam filters (ITG in this case) held more dirt back, but used to block in less than an hours racing, so take your pick. On the V8 side of things JE engineering said the K&N's produced turbulance at idle that hot wire system could not cope with, so they liked the ITG, that was huge, but had effectively a very big bell mouth as part of its case to smooth things out.(This was back in 1994, I expect things have moved on) I think the turbulance issue was when the filter was directly connected to the airflow meter, not on the end of a pipe like the TVR however. Apart from that long is the pipercross overall?. Might see if one will fit in my available space.

Thanks
Mark