Exige setup/handling questions
Discussion
Well, had my third trackday with my NA 'zige at Donnington with LoT on saturday. The others were at Oulton and Cadwell so I think it would be fair to say the car has had a pretty good baptism to track days. The car is pretty much standard as regards suspension/power, although I've added mintex 1144 and EBC front discs.
I've got the confidence to push the car pretty hard now and have noticed a few things..
1) Occaisonaly, especially with gradient/camber changes, the car can feel suprisingly unsettled and floaty and its fairly easy to get lift off oversteer (a couple of hairy moments thru craner curves..). As would be expected, it feels better if you really 'commit' to the corner. I would have said this is just standard for the Exige but I have had pax rides in 2 'nitron'd' exiges and these just felt much more sorted/settled, quite suprisingly so in fact. They also rolled a fair bit less.
2) Quite marked understeer in slow corners, hairpins obviously the worst. Tyre pressures (048's) were about 24/25 hot. Fast corners=minimal understeer, I assume maybe due to increased downforce from the front splitter??
3) Feels very rough going over the kerbs, again in comparison to a car on nitrons.
I was going to upgrade to nitrons anyway which I assume will help with 1) and 2) but.... have other people fitted the upgraded ARB and does it make any additional difference to any 'wallowy' temptations.. AND I hate understeer; I assume the nitrons can't do much for this. If not, can the geo be done in such a way to minimise this, or would it unbalance the car and make the back more twitchy? And before anyone mentions about S1 Exige's inherent lack of understeer, I'm happy to stick with the S2 for now ...
I've made the car sound like a dog, which obviously its not. Its just when you get a ride in a really 'sorted' example, you are left begging for more.....
I've got the confidence to push the car pretty hard now and have noticed a few things..
1) Occaisonaly, especially with gradient/camber changes, the car can feel suprisingly unsettled and floaty and its fairly easy to get lift off oversteer (a couple of hairy moments thru craner curves..). As would be expected, it feels better if you really 'commit' to the corner. I would have said this is just standard for the Exige but I have had pax rides in 2 'nitron'd' exiges and these just felt much more sorted/settled, quite suprisingly so in fact. They also rolled a fair bit less.
2) Quite marked understeer in slow corners, hairpins obviously the worst. Tyre pressures (048's) were about 24/25 hot. Fast corners=minimal understeer, I assume maybe due to increased downforce from the front splitter??
3) Feels very rough going over the kerbs, again in comparison to a car on nitrons.
I was going to upgrade to nitrons anyway which I assume will help with 1) and 2) but.... have other people fitted the upgraded ARB and does it make any additional difference to any 'wallowy' temptations.. AND I hate understeer; I assume the nitrons can't do much for this. If not, can the geo be done in such a way to minimise this, or would it unbalance the car and make the back more twitchy? And before anyone mentions about S1 Exige's inherent lack of understeer, I'm happy to stick with the S2 for now ...
I've made the car sound like a dog, which obviously its not. Its just when you get a ride in a really 'sorted' example, you are left begging for more.....
Nitrons are a good shock, designed in the UK by men in sheds, Ohlins are the way to go!
Get a decent Geo, if the car is still as it was "set up" by the factory then you have probably found out what the problem is. Take it to plans and ask them to fit some Ohlins and sort the geo and you will have something that cant be equaled.
I speak from experience, the only limit in the corners is my ability.
Get a decent Geo, if the car is still as it was "set up" by the factory then you have probably found out what the problem is. Take it to plans and ask them to fit some Ohlins and sort the geo and you will have something that cant be equaled.
I speak from experience, the only limit in the corners is my ability.
Unless you setup your car specifically for Donnington you'll always end up with understeer as the surface is crap and covered in jet fuel. Once dialed out totally though the car need commitment to stop it spinning off.
Craner always requires total commitment if you aren't going to get strange feelings, better suspension helps but it is a commitment complex.
If you go for better suspension, and I'd recommend Ohlins as well (everyone has their own preference, but I know them and have used them for years on cars and bikes) you do need to understand how to set them up for each track to get the best from them and how changing the setting on the anti roll bars will help (you should upgrade to a motorsport one at the same time).
Finally if you are riding curbs, make sure you have the rear toe link strengthening bar or bad things can happen!
Craner always requires total commitment if you aren't going to get strange feelings, better suspension helps but it is a commitment complex.
If you go for better suspension, and I'd recommend Ohlins as well (everyone has their own preference, but I know them and have used them for years on cars and bikes) you do need to understand how to set them up for each track to get the best from them and how changing the setting on the anti roll bars will help (you should upgrade to a motorsport one at the same time).
Finally if you are riding curbs, make sure you have the rear toe link strengthening bar or bad things can happen!
I know its been argued a million times before but are the Ohlins R E A L L Y worth the extra over the nitrons unless you have the knowledge to adjust properly and are racing the car.....???
I take the point about surface conditions at donnington, just strange the understeer seemed more of an issue on the hairpins...
Plans is right old trek from West Yorkshire I'm afraid. Any geo recommendations north of Watford Gap?
PS will lowering the ride height make any difference-I assume in my naiveity that uprated shocks do this anyway??
I take the point about surface conditions at donnington, just strange the understeer seemed more of an issue on the hairpins...
Plans is right old trek from West Yorkshire I'm afraid. Any geo recommendations north of Watford Gap?
PS will lowering the ride height make any difference-I assume in my naiveity that uprated shocks do this anyway??
mrh3113 said:
I know its been argued a million times before but are the Ohlins R E A L L Y worth the extra over the nitrons unless you have the knowledge to adjust properly and are racing the car.....???
36mm (LOTUS spec) Ohlins are a cheap budget damper compared to their 42mm proper ones. Ohlins 42mm ones are a match for Nitrons 42mm ones.I'm getting Nitrons on mine from Randy at Hofmann's.
http://www.hofmanns.co.uk/content/index.asp?id=20
Their Honda S1 wiped the floor clear in Lot last year.
http://www.hofmanns.co.uk/content/index.asp?id=20
Their Honda S1 wiped the floor clear in Lot last year.
Is a standard car going to be that bad on track, or is it just a case of when you get used to the car / circuit? I wasn't planning to do anything to the car this year and thought it'd be OK on the odd track day (probs 3 or 4) and then a trip to the 'Ring in July.
The rest of the driving is mainly road driving.
The rest of the driving is mainly road driving.
Craig-you're in the same boat as me, although I'm hoping to do at least 6 track days a year. Its like all these things.. if you had nothing else to compare it to you'd think it was pretty awesome. But the harder you push the car (as you get to know the circuit better) and the more rides you have in equivalent cars with suspension tweaks, the more you realise it could be easily taken to another level. For a price.
Craig! said:
Is a standard car going to be that bad on track, or is it just a case of when you get used to the car / circuit? I wasn't planning to do anything to the car this year and thought it'd be OK on the odd track day (probs 3 or 4) and then a trip to the 'Ring in July.
The rest of the driving is mainly road driving.
It's not that bad. Just take the cheaper option of not lifting off down craners (dunno why you'd do this anyway), a track geo to get rid of some of the low speed understeer, and stay off the kerbs if the're rough cos it's only a trackday, so why increase wear and tear?The rest of the driving is mainly road driving.
I'm very tempted by some nitrons, but at the moment i'm attempting to improve/alter my driving to overcome it. I've semi-decided that when i can drive my car as fast as the instructor then i'll upgrade
NeilC said:
It's not that bad. Just take the cheaper option of not lifting off down craners (dunno why you'd do this anyway), a track geo to get rid of some of the low speed understeer, and stay off the kerbs if the're rough cos it's only a trackday, so why increase wear and tear?
I'm very tempted by some nitrons, but at the moment i'm attempting to improve/alter my driving to overcome it. I've semi-decided that when i can drive my car as fast as the instructor then i'll upgrade
I only lifted on Craners once (slightly off line and just bottling slightly...) but was just suprised how wallowy it felt. To be fair its a corner that would probably test even really well setup cars. I wasn't aiming for the kerbs on purpose, just occaisonaly over-ran the corner. We were however on the GP layout so its pretty hard to avoid a bit of kerb 'action' at the chicane after the main straight. I'm very tempted by some nitrons, but at the moment i'm attempting to improve/alter my driving to overcome it. I've semi-decided that when i can drive my car as fast as the instructor then i'll upgrade
How do we define a 'Track Geo' ?? This an area I have very limited knowledge (actually, make that NO knowledge
)The standard Exige spring rates and damping, and the geo are IMvHO, a compromise to try and do all things to all men. As a result, when you push them hard on track, you find that there are areas which can be improved.
Sure you can play with the geo, change it completely to be very focussed, you can also spend several thousand pounds on trick suspension, and improve your tracktimes, cornering speeds etc. BUT you'll then be adding another compromise vs. road handling.
In the end I found a very balanced set-up from Plans was the way to go. The car was neither too under or oversteery, but depending on how you committed (or didn't), it would behave very predictably. With the benefit of well sprung Nitrons, I was able to achieve a very compliant ride on pretty much all surfaces.
I realised pretty quickly once I'd got it 'right' for me however, that I was going considerably quicker than before though, that any mistakes I did make led to ever bigger potential *episodes*, and ultimately on road and track I had to push harder and harder (quite probably without the skills to recover from them should it go wrong) to get a feeling of driving on or near the limit, and being challenged by the car.
With that in mind I've now (as many have done I think), decided to look to a different type of approach to my next car. Less power, retain a great set-up with good damping, springs, brakes etc., but remove sticky tyres, lower speeds, and generally get better at playing with the car on and around the limit. I'm sure I'll end up a better driver, have more fun, and risk less, by doing so.
Sure you can play with the geo, change it completely to be very focussed, you can also spend several thousand pounds on trick suspension, and improve your tracktimes, cornering speeds etc. BUT you'll then be adding another compromise vs. road handling.
In the end I found a very balanced set-up from Plans was the way to go. The car was neither too under or oversteery, but depending on how you committed (or didn't), it would behave very predictably. With the benefit of well sprung Nitrons, I was able to achieve a very compliant ride on pretty much all surfaces.
I realised pretty quickly once I'd got it 'right' for me however, that I was going considerably quicker than before though, that any mistakes I did make led to ever bigger potential *episodes*, and ultimately on road and track I had to push harder and harder (quite probably without the skills to recover from them should it go wrong) to get a feeling of driving on or near the limit, and being challenged by the car.
With that in mind I've now (as many have done I think), decided to look to a different type of approach to my next car. Less power, retain a great set-up with good damping, springs, brakes etc., but remove sticky tyres, lower speeds, and generally get better at playing with the car on and around the limit. I'm sure I'll end up a better driver, have more fun, and risk less, by doing so.
S Works said:
The standard Exige spring rates and damping, and the geo are IMvHO, a compromise to try and do all things to all men. As a result, when you push them hard on track, you find that there are areas which can be improved.
Sure you can play with the geo, change it completely to be very focussed, you can also spend several thousand pounds on trick suspension, and improve your tracktimes, cornering speeds etc. BUT you'll then be adding another compromise vs. road handling.
In the end I found a very balanced set-up from Plans was the way to go. The car was neither too under or oversteery, but depending on how you committed (or didn't), it would behave very predictably. With the benefit of well sprung Nitrons, I was able to achieve a very compliant ride on pretty much all surfaces.
I realised pretty quickly once I'd got it 'right' for me however, that I was going considerably quicker than before though, that any mistakes I did make led to ever bigger potential *episodes*, and ultimately on road and track I had to push harder and harder (quite probably without the skills to recover from them should it go wrong) to get a feeling of driving on or near the limit, and being challenged by the car.
With that in mind I've now (as many have done I think), decided to look to a different type of approach to my next car. Less power, retain a great set-up with good damping, springs, brakes etc., but remove sticky tyres, lower speeds, and generally get better at playing with the car on and around the limit. I'm sure I'll end up a better driver, have more fun, and risk less, by doing so.
Its a very good point and I can see myself heading in that direction at some stage. It seems a bit like a journey we all have to go on.....! At the moment though, I'm still in love with the Exige and want to get the most of that first. Sure you can play with the geo, change it completely to be very focussed, you can also spend several thousand pounds on trick suspension, and improve your tracktimes, cornering speeds etc. BUT you'll then be adding another compromise vs. road handling.
In the end I found a very balanced set-up from Plans was the way to go. The car was neither too under or oversteery, but depending on how you committed (or didn't), it would behave very predictably. With the benefit of well sprung Nitrons, I was able to achieve a very compliant ride on pretty much all surfaces.
I realised pretty quickly once I'd got it 'right' for me however, that I was going considerably quicker than before though, that any mistakes I did make led to ever bigger potential *episodes*, and ultimately on road and track I had to push harder and harder (quite probably without the skills to recover from them should it go wrong) to get a feeling of driving on or near the limit, and being challenged by the car.
With that in mind I've now (as many have done I think), decided to look to a different type of approach to my next car. Less power, retain a great set-up with good damping, springs, brakes etc., but remove sticky tyres, lower speeds, and generally get better at playing with the car on and around the limit. I'm sure I'll end up a better driver, have more fun, and risk less, by doing so.
S Works said:
Less power, retain a great set-up with good damping, springs, brakes etc., but remove sticky tyres, lower speeds, and generally get better at playing with the car on and around the limit. I'm sure I'll end up a better driver, have more fun, and risk less, by doing so.
Excellent plan Tim 
I'd love to save on 48s and start punishing low cost TR1s on track.Edited by hbaumhardt on Thursday 28th February 20:25
Yep, very interesting and enlightened view there Tim.
I personally think road cars can get to a point where they generate maybe too much speed or grip for their own good.
My previous car, a Civic Type R, eventually bored me because I had to drive the thing so damn hard to get any sensation. Better quality damping, smaller wheels / tyres and a decent power steering system would have done wonders for the Honda. Its those things that would have made it far more exciting to drive, not more power.
The only reason I opted for the Elise R rather than the lower powered S is for overtaking on the SE's ever busier roads. I would have the cam changeover point some 1,000 rpm lower in a perfect world, though
I personally think road cars can get to a point where they generate maybe too much speed or grip for their own good.
My previous car, a Civic Type R, eventually bored me because I had to drive the thing so damn hard to get any sensation. Better quality damping, smaller wheels / tyres and a decent power steering system would have done wonders for the Honda. Its those things that would have made it far more exciting to drive, not more power.
The only reason I opted for the Elise R rather than the lower powered S is for overtaking on the SE's ever busier roads. I would have the cam changeover point some 1,000 rpm lower in a perfect world, though
<cheeky mode> maybe it's not the car but the driver - I managed to dig up clarkson being taught that it's not the car understeering but him:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7f4T1XOaf4
</cheeky mode>
In all seriousness I don't know enough to even start to comment on the car's performance and am keen to go for 048's on the front if only to increase braking power etc but I'm also aware of what this will do to the limits; mind you if I'm bumping into the limits with the current setup a) I'm being stupid as I really don't have the instincts to correct the error and b) I've stepped way outside my comfort zone!
Miles
PS How do I get the above to play in this window rather than give you a link to open a new one?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7f4T1XOaf4
</cheeky mode>
In all seriousness I don't know enough to even start to comment on the car's performance and am keen to go for 048's on the front if only to increase braking power etc but I'm also aware of what this will do to the limits; mind you if I'm bumping into the limits with the current setup a) I'm being stupid as I really don't have the instincts to correct the error and b) I've stepped way outside my comfort zone!
Miles
PS How do I get the above to play in this window rather than give you a link to open a new one?
Edited by miles_stylus on Thursday 28th February 23:32
The S2 with the default 0 camber and 175 tyres does understeer, it was a design objective. fact.
You can drive around it with trailbraking in and staying off the power out but up the camber to -0.7 and understeer is 99% gon even on 175 road tyres. Stick 195 road tyres like TR1s on (keep the fronts fresh) and there should be no understeer unless you set the geo / suspension to give it.
You can stick A048/888 on with stiffer springs and even more camber to go faster through a corner but you dont NEED them to fix understeer.
You can drive around it with trailbraking in and staying off the power out but up the camber to -0.7 and understeer is 99% gon even on 175 road tyres. Stick 195 road tyres like TR1s on (keep the fronts fresh) and there should be no understeer unless you set the geo / suspension to give it.
You can stick A048/888 on with stiffer springs and even more camber to go faster through a corner but you dont NEED them to fix understeer.
Had the car in for MOT toady at Chris Foulds-local Lotus specialist. Was having a chat with him about the upgrades and he was urging a degree of caution, saying that he has had at least 3 customers end up removing nitrons as they were just too firm for road use. My impression, reading around, is that most people are happy with them on the road? Or is it a case of, having spent the thick end of £1.5k for an upgrade, people will naturally sing their praises and overlook the compromises?
I use the car 1/2 road 1/2 track, so reckon I could live with a slightly firmer ride on the road. I already dodge manhole covers/pot holes anyway.
Any comments on how much difference the uprated ARB makes? Any further detriment to the ride?
I use the car 1/2 road 1/2 track, so reckon I could live with a slightly firmer ride on the road. I already dodge manhole covers/pot holes anyway.
Any comments on how much difference the uprated ARB makes? Any further detriment to the ride?
mrh3113 said:
Had the car in for MOT toady at Chris Foulds-local Lotus specialist. Was having a chat with him about the upgrades and he was urging a degree of caution, saying that he has had at least 3 customers end up removing nitrons as they were just too firm for road use. My impression, reading around, is that most people are happy with them on the road? Or is it a case of, having spent the thick end of £1.5k for an upgrade, people will naturally sing their praises and overlook the compromises?
I use the car 1/2 road 1/2 track, so reckon I could live with a slightly firmer ride on the road. I already dodge manhole covers/pot holes anyway.
Any comments on how much difference the uprated ARB makes? Any further detriment to the ride?
Hi MarkI use the car 1/2 road 1/2 track, so reckon I could live with a slightly firmer ride on the road. I already dodge manhole covers/pot holes anyway.
Any comments on how much difference the uprated ARB makes? Any further detriment to the ride?
As i said on the day i think the uprated ARB is a big help. But main thing is it's adjustable so you find the setting that works best for you. Plus i don't think it makes things any worse on the road.
Nitrons is a different thing though. I find mine too hard for the road now. But it's all relative, personally i find getting in and out of the damn thing too much of a pain to use it all the time anyway. And that's before we get onto noise! Think you need to try a car on the road, the nitrons might tip you over the edge or you might think they're fine - let's face it the standard car isn't exactly comfortable! Next trackday get someone to take you out on the when they go for petrol? You're welcome to have another go in mine.
HTH
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