my view on police
Discussion
I read during the weekend the problems regarding legsilation that policeman face when it comes to doing their job. I genuinly feel sorry for them. I myself have often thought about joining the police force, to stand for what i believe in. I have many friends that are either current serving or ex-police officers. To read the problems they face on a day to day level is both infuriating and a good reason not to trouble myself with the frustrations i would no doubt face with joing "the force".
I strongly believe in living for what is right and what is wrong. Maybe i am nievive in being mid-twenties and believing in that way of life. I have lived in rough areas, and not so rough areas. I personally believe i have seen a broad band of society when it comes to life experiences.
Tonight I almost got arrested. What for? It was for urninating in between some bushes at 11:30pm. I apologise for this ghastly feat of being caught short. I am certain it never happens to your offices on "the beat" who no doubt find public lavitories whenever they are in need of "relieving themselves". Whilst stood there immediately after your officers took my details a car sped past at 60mph + in a 30mph limit, but lets not worry ourselves with these facts. Lets worry about the fact i was cautionned for getting caught short in some bushes away from any public eye.
People often comment about people losing faith in the British policing and crime system. After tonight, I have no reason to doubt them. I can hold my hands up and agree that i do not agree with the "speed kills" campaign. Personally i believe in the fact that inappropriate speed kills. Funnily enough, i see very few speed cameras outside school gates, outside pedestrian areas etc. I see them within areas where revenue will be greatest. Utuly deplorable techniques of increasing revenue.
There are those that i trust in that serve within the law. I feel sorry for those that will no doubt here my frustration and try to follow the good work they do. There is a job to do, as much as governed by this ridiculous government. Please try and be sensible about it. If the 2 policeman that had a pop at me are reading this, i am afraid to say you have lost my respect. In fact, you act on behalf of the force and you have lost my respect in that.
Here is a law abiding citizen throwing in the towel. I give up. DO YOU HERE ME. I have read other people's threads for too long. Apaches' son effected me, as did Mon ami mates'. Now is time for me to say i have had enough. This country can go to the dogs, and the tossers that exist within the police force can go with it. There are those that try to remain sensible throughout,; and exercise discretion. And there are those that represent a large group of people and act like complete w*nkers. Good luck to you all. You need it.
PS - I should point out that I have no convictions, i am a placid bloke with not even a point on my license. I am a lawyer that does not act in the defence of people and have studied law to get where i have got. The system stinks.
I strongly believe in living for what is right and what is wrong. Maybe i am nievive in being mid-twenties and believing in that way of life. I have lived in rough areas, and not so rough areas. I personally believe i have seen a broad band of society when it comes to life experiences.
Tonight I almost got arrested. What for? It was for urninating in between some bushes at 11:30pm. I apologise for this ghastly feat of being caught short. I am certain it never happens to your offices on "the beat" who no doubt find public lavitories whenever they are in need of "relieving themselves". Whilst stood there immediately after your officers took my details a car sped past at 60mph + in a 30mph limit, but lets not worry ourselves with these facts. Lets worry about the fact i was cautionned for getting caught short in some bushes away from any public eye.
People often comment about people losing faith in the British policing and crime system. After tonight, I have no reason to doubt them. I can hold my hands up and agree that i do not agree with the "speed kills" campaign. Personally i believe in the fact that inappropriate speed kills. Funnily enough, i see very few speed cameras outside school gates, outside pedestrian areas etc. I see them within areas where revenue will be greatest. Utuly deplorable techniques of increasing revenue.
There are those that i trust in that serve within the law. I feel sorry for those that will no doubt here my frustration and try to follow the good work they do. There is a job to do, as much as governed by this ridiculous government. Please try and be sensible about it. If the 2 policeman that had a pop at me are reading this, i am afraid to say you have lost my respect. In fact, you act on behalf of the force and you have lost my respect in that.
Here is a law abiding citizen throwing in the towel. I give up. DO YOU HERE ME. I have read other people's threads for too long. Apaches' son effected me, as did Mon ami mates'. Now is time for me to say i have had enough. This country can go to the dogs, and the tossers that exist within the police force can go with it. There are those that try to remain sensible throughout,; and exercise discretion. And there are those that represent a large group of people and act like complete w*nkers. Good luck to you all. You need it.
PS - I should point out that I have no convictions, i am a placid bloke with not even a point on my license. I am a lawyer that does not act in the defence of people and have studied law to get where i have got. The system stinks.
Um, not taking the pi... 
but it obv wasn't out of the public eye if you were spotted by coppers mate...
for what it's worth - I hate seeing people "relieving themselves" in the street, I can safely say that I've never ever done it.
Anyway, I guess I'm just pi
ng into the wind with this one 
but at the end of the day it *is* a public order offence. Still, without knowing the area I can't possibly comment in a derogetary manner!!...
but it obv wasn't out of the public eye if you were spotted by coppers mate... for what it's worth - I hate seeing people "relieving themselves" in the street, I can safely say that I've never ever done it.
Anyway, I guess I'm just pi
ng into the wind with this one but at the end of the day it *is* a public order offence. Still, without knowing the area I can't possibly comment in a derogetary manner!!...I think this post illustrates well the declining position of the police in our society. 30 years ago (it happened to me) if you were in court and it was your word or the word of a policeman, that policeman usually won. That got abused by a small number of officers, so corroborating evidence was required – this instead of weeding out the bad apples, ‘cos actually firing someone then was so difficult, and management didn’t see it as a thing they could do.
Hey presto, you now need TWO officers on a beat – halving the effectiveness of the police force at a stroke. Then, a small number of pairs of police officers proved difficult to believe – management failure in my view – so EVERYTHING had to be put down in writing, in triplicate, etc. Another 25% off their effectiveness.
Thirty years ago, the policeman was armed with a small truncheon, a pointy hat (and a whistle). Now it’s a riot stick, body armour, CS gas, crash helmets, visors, shields and – far too often – guns. 20 officers go in where three or four went in before (I was horrified to see 20+ officers going in to a tiny terrace house to arrest a child trafficker. He needed arresting, but that number of police just offers him more targets, and jamming them up in a house meant they could react to almost nothing). Are they any safer? Are the numbers of officer days lost to injury any lower now? Are there more police killed on the job? I doubt it. Instead the criminal fraternity have tooled up in response.
Then you get traffic policing. A traffic car is now SO expensive that forces can’t afford them. Cameras have replaced traffic officers, both metaphorically and literally (some forces are down from 15% traffic officers to 5%). Public perceptions of the police have been devastated as a result.
Of course, it’s not all down to the police and to policing. Society in general has become much less authoritarian. We don’t blindly accept authority’s right to authority in the way we used to in every walk of life – teaching, park wardens, parliament. This may be a good thing, but it has consequences, in that the cost of enforcement rises exponentially.
Hey presto, you now need TWO officers on a beat – halving the effectiveness of the police force at a stroke. Then, a small number of pairs of police officers proved difficult to believe – management failure in my view – so EVERYTHING had to be put down in writing, in triplicate, etc. Another 25% off their effectiveness.
Thirty years ago, the policeman was armed with a small truncheon, a pointy hat (and a whistle). Now it’s a riot stick, body armour, CS gas, crash helmets, visors, shields and – far too often – guns. 20 officers go in where three or four went in before (I was horrified to see 20+ officers going in to a tiny terrace house to arrest a child trafficker. He needed arresting, but that number of police just offers him more targets, and jamming them up in a house meant they could react to almost nothing). Are they any safer? Are the numbers of officer days lost to injury any lower now? Are there more police killed on the job? I doubt it. Instead the criminal fraternity have tooled up in response.
Then you get traffic policing. A traffic car is now SO expensive that forces can’t afford them. Cameras have replaced traffic officers, both metaphorically and literally (some forces are down from 15% traffic officers to 5%). Public perceptions of the police have been devastated as a result.
Of course, it’s not all down to the police and to policing. Society in general has become much less authoritarian. We don’t blindly accept authority’s right to authority in the way we used to in every walk of life – teaching, park wardens, parliament. This may be a good thing, but it has consequences, in that the cost of enforcement rises exponentially.
Ok Jat, point taken.
However, 2 officers on foot patrol is a necessity in some areas, due to violence directed at police officers.
Dressed up in 'riot gear' as you say generally constitutes an anti ballistic/stab vest, and exactly the same uniform as you previously state, pointy hat etc etc.
Again, why....because so many were getting stabbed, seriously injured. I am talking from experience. Being on foot patrol in an inner city estate at 0200 on a friday / saturday is an eye opener believe me. I have been assaulted many times, sometimes needing hospital treatment. And guess what, the court convicts, awards £70 compo, offender disappears, his slate is then wiped clean...faith in system indeed.
Why do it, because it is a rewarding job as believe it or not there are lots of decent people who do genuinely need the police and a good service is given. I am not talking about speed traps, gatso's etc. I get satisfaction anyway.
Onto the 20 or so officers charging into a house. Well, a risk assessment would have been carried out, and that would have been deemed the necessary force required. Remember the DC That was stabbed and killed recently. They didnt know that a large number of people were inside the house, one family without a father now.
Onto urinating in a public place, it is not an arrestable offence, it is reportable only. This means you are reported for summons (to attend court). Urinating in public is a completely antisocial thing to do. If you were in the middle of a field then a hedge is probably a good bet. But outside the kebab shop on a friday night, is not.
I can't comment on your particular incident or officers behaviour as I wasn't there. Suffice to say that if you havn't been treated correctly, go to the station and ask to be seen by the duty Inspector to lodge a formal complaint. And yes, it will be dealt with.
If you have been spoken to, and not reported for summons / arrested for a public order offence then you have got away with it. You cannot have a street caution (well you can on the bill)
I am glad you had respect for the law, so do I, it is unfortunate you feel aggrieved for being spoken to (and not reported to court) for urinating in a public place. Hopefully you may see it from the other side one day, have a word with your mates in the job. They may hopefully put the point across.
All the best,
Mike.
However, 2 officers on foot patrol is a necessity in some areas, due to violence directed at police officers.
Dressed up in 'riot gear' as you say generally constitutes an anti ballistic/stab vest, and exactly the same uniform as you previously state, pointy hat etc etc.
Again, why....because so many were getting stabbed, seriously injured. I am talking from experience. Being on foot patrol in an inner city estate at 0200 on a friday / saturday is an eye opener believe me. I have been assaulted many times, sometimes needing hospital treatment. And guess what, the court convicts, awards £70 compo, offender disappears, his slate is then wiped clean...faith in system indeed.
Why do it, because it is a rewarding job as believe it or not there are lots of decent people who do genuinely need the police and a good service is given. I am not talking about speed traps, gatso's etc. I get satisfaction anyway.
Onto the 20 or so officers charging into a house. Well, a risk assessment would have been carried out, and that would have been deemed the necessary force required. Remember the DC That was stabbed and killed recently. They didnt know that a large number of people were inside the house, one family without a father now.
Onto urinating in a public place, it is not an arrestable offence, it is reportable only. This means you are reported for summons (to attend court). Urinating in public is a completely antisocial thing to do. If you were in the middle of a field then a hedge is probably a good bet. But outside the kebab shop on a friday night, is not.
I can't comment on your particular incident or officers behaviour as I wasn't there. Suffice to say that if you havn't been treated correctly, go to the station and ask to be seen by the duty Inspector to lodge a formal complaint. And yes, it will be dealt with.
If you have been spoken to, and not reported for summons / arrested for a public order offence then you have got away with it. You cannot have a street caution (well you can on the bill)
I am glad you had respect for the law, so do I, it is unfortunate you feel aggrieved for being spoken to (and not reported to court) for urinating in a public place. Hopefully you may see it from the other side one day, have a word with your mates in the job. They may hopefully put the point across.
All the best,
Mike.
excuse me officer would you mind shielding me with your Hi visiblity jacket while I take a wazzzz Actually I think a gentle tickng of for p*ssing in public is a good thing.
Myself and some mates were bollocked by rozzers for urinating in public. [1] (We were half cut and and sadly failed to notice the building we'd chosen to discretly p*ss against was an open gents... ;-( )
Poor plod were subjected to a tirade of questions about local crime rates and the state of the investigation into Jill Dando's murder. (Guy was still free at that time)
We were set on our way (police car wheel spun away in a residential area)
The evening was rounded off with the 4 of us walking 2/4 of a mile out of our way to p*ss against the police station.
Victory for the man in the street.
I still say the police were right to tick us off. Although their interpersonal skills were lacking a bit.
The point of this post? B*ggered if I know!
[1] A very rare occurance. Something I find distasteful. Although in Amsterdam it's somewhat different.
Myself and some mates were bollocked by rozzers for urinating in public. [1] (We were half cut and and sadly failed to notice the building we'd chosen to discretly p*ss against was an open gents... ;-( )
Poor plod were subjected to a tirade of questions about local crime rates and the state of the investigation into Jill Dando's murder. (Guy was still free at that time)
We were set on our way (police car wheel spun away in a residential area)
The evening was rounded off with the 4 of us walking 2/4 of a mile out of our way to p*ss against the police station.
Victory for the man in the street.
I still say the police were right to tick us off. Although their interpersonal skills were lacking a bit.
The point of this post? B*ggered if I know!
[1] A very rare occurance. Something I find distasteful. Although in Amsterdam it's somewhat different.
mel said:
Is there not still a staute on the books that says it is perfectly acceptable to urinate in the street as long as you ask a Policeman to shield you with his cape? I suggest some homework today shnozz.
I cant be arsed Mel - too much to do and frankly I couldnt give a sh*t. Just a sad reflection on society's views on police
alans said:
Shnozz
Hi mate, I was saddened to read your post.
If your hienious act was in Hedge End, count yourself lucky you are not doing some porageat least it was not "possesion of an offensive weapon"
Anyway I'm still in the chair for that pint tonight.
alan
nice one alan - did we say 8pm?
silverback mike said:
Onto urinating in a public place, it is not an arrestable offence, it is reportable only. This means you are reported for summons (to attend court). Urinating in public is a completely antisocial thing to do. If you were in the middle of a field then a hedge is probably a good bet. But outside the kebab shop on a friday night, is not.
I can't comment on your particular incident or officers behaviour as I wasn't there. Suffice to say that if you havn't been treated correctly, go to the station and ask to be seen by the duty Inspector to lodge a formal complaint. And yes, it will be dealt with.
If you have been spoken to, and not reported for summons / arrested for a public order offence then you have got away with it. You cannot have a street caution (well you can on the bill)
I am glad you had respect for the law, so do I, it is unfortunate you feel aggrieved for being spoken to (and not reported to court) for urinating in a public place. Hopefully you may see it from the other side one day, have a word with your mates in the job. They may hopefully put the point across.
All the best,
Mike.
Mike, I agree that urinating in a PUBLIC place is completely antisocial behaviour and not acceptable. if that had been the case I would have taken my slapped wrist and gone on my merry way.
To put you in the picture a little more it was around the back of the fields surrounding the Hampshire cricket ground (which, in case you are not familiar, is situated 3/4 miles outside of the city in a rural area). It was midnight at the time, although there was a fair amount of gentleman leaving the ground still after a day on the beer. i deliberately walked 10 - 12 yards into a hedge row when PC plod and his mate come over to have a few words. This was a case of a law abiding young man taking a leak at midnight in some hedges out of the back of a field.
I really couldnt give enough of a sh*t to bother speaking to anyone at the station or try and make them see the reaction they are provoking. To me, its really not worth it. By the letter of the law, I was wrong, so what is the point?
The fact of the matter is that after this incident it taints my view on the police.
I have never been stopped in the car to have my details checked that it is insured, taxed, MOT'ed etc. I havent had a policeman come and knock on my door when the close I lived in previously had about 10 cars broken into and countless garages.
If i did, being stopped and having to provide these details wouldnt give me any issue with the police. in fact, it would have a positive effect in that i knew the police were pro-actively seeking those who were breaking the law. that would give me a feeling of some safety.
But sure as hell I am safe in the knowledge that no burglers, car thieves, arsonists will be taking a p*ss on my doorstep. They will no doubt have the sense to go at home before they come out at night and be guaranteed that the police will be seeing to more important matters.
shnozz said:
Shnozz
Hi mate, I was saddened to read your post.
If your hienious act was in Hedge End, count yourself lucky you are not doing some porage
Anyway I'm still in the chair for that pint tonight.
alan
nice one alan - did we say 8pm?
8:00 it is, and you better stick to 1 pint don't want you getting "caught short" do we
alan
alans said:
alans said:
Shnozz
Hi mate, I was saddened to read your post.
If your hienious act was in Hedge End, count yourself lucky you are not doing some porage
Anyway I'm still in the chair for that pint tonight.
alan
nice one alan - did we say 8pm?
8:00 it is, and you better stick to 1 pint don't want you getting "caught short" do we
alan
ok mate, will see you there. if its 8 o'clock then i can break into a few houses on the way home and assault some random people, just make sure i use the gents before i head off eh
Shnozz,
you mention in your first post the speeding car being apparently ignored whilst you were being dealt with. I can see why this makes the whole incident more frustrating for you. IMO however it may be of use for you to breakdown the practicalities involved.
Were the Police Officer(s) on foot or had they got out of a vehicle to speak to you.
You mention a rural area - was it well lit?
Speeding car at twice the limit?
You were close enough to the road to see the car - yes?
Taking these facts into consideration, then:
It remains a very risky task for foot officers or officers that are not in their patrol car to deal with traffic at any time of the day. A worryingly growing statistic is that which reflects fatalities or serious injuries sustained as a result of Officers attempting to stop traffic whilst on foot. If it's dark then it's just not worth the risk.
The other thing to consider if the Officers had their car nearby, would be the likelyhood of them being able to catch the speeding motorist, having got back to their car and driven after him, the risks they would have to take i.e. speed, to catch up and then the problem of identifying the driver and if they didn't get it at the time, the details of the vehicle.
Now sympathise with your experience and given the circumstances as you've described them, a word of advice, whilst you consider the resolution ott, is all that was needed - indeed the actual means of resolution employed.
As Silverback Mike has already outlined, you were commiting a Public Order offence and as this is directly related to quality of life issues for residents within the area (if there are any) it is likely to have been highlighted as the type of offence to be given some form of priority.
Now that rather neatly brings me back to the point of the speeding motorist and the fact that they dealt with you as opposed to chasing the car - isn't that the message people on these forums are trying to impress? Deal not with traffic offences, but with 'real crime' ?
'Quality of life' is affected by all manner of public misbehaviour, from the lowliest of Public Order offence to that of murder. We are obliged to deal with them all.
Tivster
you mention in your first post the speeding car being apparently ignored whilst you were being dealt with. I can see why this makes the whole incident more frustrating for you. IMO however it may be of use for you to breakdown the practicalities involved.
Were the Police Officer(s) on foot or had they got out of a vehicle to speak to you.
You mention a rural area - was it well lit?
Speeding car at twice the limit?
You were close enough to the road to see the car - yes?
Taking these facts into consideration, then:
It remains a very risky task for foot officers or officers that are not in their patrol car to deal with traffic at any time of the day. A worryingly growing statistic is that which reflects fatalities or serious injuries sustained as a result of Officers attempting to stop traffic whilst on foot. If it's dark then it's just not worth the risk.
The other thing to consider if the Officers had their car nearby, would be the likelyhood of them being able to catch the speeding motorist, having got back to their car and driven after him, the risks they would have to take i.e. speed, to catch up and then the problem of identifying the driver and if they didn't get it at the time, the details of the vehicle.
Now sympathise with your experience and given the circumstances as you've described them, a word of advice, whilst you consider the resolution ott, is all that was needed - indeed the actual means of resolution employed.
As Silverback Mike has already outlined, you were commiting a Public Order offence and as this is directly related to quality of life issues for residents within the area (if there are any) it is likely to have been highlighted as the type of offence to be given some form of priority.
Now that rather neatly brings me back to the point of the speeding motorist and the fact that they dealt with you as opposed to chasing the car - isn't that the message people on these forums are trying to impress? Deal not with traffic offences, but with 'real crime' ?
'Quality of life' is affected by all manner of public misbehaviour, from the lowliest of Public Order offence to that of murder. We are obliged to deal with them all.
Tivster
Don't you think denouncing the police for actually stopping you and cautioning you for committing an offence is a bit OTT??
At the end of the day, the next guy with his knob out on the street might be about to flash it in the face of some buxom young lass - ok maybe you wouldn't do that, but the policeman had to stop and check right?? Think of the reaction if that sort of story was posted here and the answer from the police was "well the last person we stopped was only having a slash, which although is still an offence, is only a lttle one so we thought it would be ok. Pity this guy was a serial rapist ..."
You were in the wrong and you got a rapping, no conviction. You would think a caution for speeding fair game over a ticket, whats the difference? Fcuk we all break the law, i have never met a law abiding citizen yet. Yeah maybe it isn't the crime of the century, but it just sounds like your pissed off cos you were caught.
You should be applauding the coppers for being on the beat!!
At the end of the day, the next guy with his knob out on the street might be about to flash it in the face of some buxom young lass - ok maybe you wouldn't do that, but the policeman had to stop and check right?? Think of the reaction if that sort of story was posted here and the answer from the police was "well the last person we stopped was only having a slash, which although is still an offence, is only a lttle one so we thought it would be ok. Pity this guy was a serial rapist ..."
You were in the wrong and you got a rapping, no conviction. You would think a caution for speeding fair game over a ticket, whats the difference? Fcuk we all break the law, i have never met a law abiding citizen yet. Yeah maybe it isn't the crime of the century, but it just sounds like your pissed off cos you were caught.
You should be applauding the coppers for being on the beat!!
I am not suggesting that i wasnt doing wrong. I accept that hence i am not making any sort of complaint. I was wrong, slapped wrist. end of.
It was the attitude of the officer that frustrated me the most. Tivster, in answer to your questions, it was fairly well lit but I was away from public view about 10 - 12 yds into some bushes. There was certainly no women or kids around and nobody at all immediately near me. The speeding cars are the regular max muppet brigade that race around the roads every night. I could hear them approaching with the stupid exhausts and saw them as i came out of the bushes. The 2 officers were sat in their vehicle at this point and then left it to have their word with me.
It is a v trivial issue and not one that i shall be too concerned by. In my personal case, it is the straw that broke the camels back. yet another instance of the crazy world of law and order. I tear my hair out at the ever increasing section of society that is hell bent on just making life difficult for other people and have no respect for anyone else or anyone's property but the leniancy shown towards them amazes me. i try to uphold the law in every sense and get PC plod giving me a lot of hassle when i get caught short.
Trefor - cant be a*sed to reply to you. t*sser.
It was the attitude of the officer that frustrated me the most. Tivster, in answer to your questions, it was fairly well lit but I was away from public view about 10 - 12 yds into some bushes. There was certainly no women or kids around and nobody at all immediately near me. The speeding cars are the regular max muppet brigade that race around the roads every night. I could hear them approaching with the stupid exhausts and saw them as i came out of the bushes. The 2 officers were sat in their vehicle at this point and then left it to have their word with me.
It is a v trivial issue and not one that i shall be too concerned by. In my personal case, it is the straw that broke the camels back. yet another instance of the crazy world of law and order. I tear my hair out at the ever increasing section of society that is hell bent on just making life difficult for other people and have no respect for anyone else or anyone's property but the leniancy shown towards them amazes me. i try to uphold the law in every sense and get PC plod giving me a lot of hassle when i get caught short.
Trefor - cant be a*sed to reply to you. t*sser.
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