More Big Brother (speed trackers)
Discussion
They'll fit one to my car/bike over my dead body! 
Note the quote "with speeding being the biggest single cause of death on the roads"
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1011463,00.html
Black box in car to trap speed drivers
Juliette Jowit, transport editor
Sunday August 3, 2003
The Observer
Drivers face automatic speeding fines without being caught by the police or roadside cameras under a proposal being studied by the Government to fit all cars with satellite tracking devices for road tolls.
Under the anti-congestion tolling plan being examined by the Department for Transport, all vehicles would be fitted with a 'black box' to charge drivers according to the type of road they are using and when they are driving.
But transport experts believe the equipment will pave the way for 24-hour monitoring of drivers to see if they break the speed limit. It could also be used to determine whether drivers were speeding before an accident.
The Government is backing trials of an advanced system which would tell the black box when it entered a speed limit and prevent the vehicle going faster. The equipment could also find drivers who have not paid vehicle duty or insurance.
The system would use global positioning systems and computer technology. It would be easy to catch speeders and there are no legal obstacles - tachographs in lorries, which record speed and length of time behind the wheel, are already examined after accidents.
'It [the equipment] probably will be used for speeding,' said Tony Grayling, associate director of the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research think-tank. 'It's an offence to break the limit and it's appropriate that evidence is generated to demonstrate the law has been broken.'
Much of the technology that would be used for the tolling devices is already in lorry tachographs, and in commercial satellite navigation devices. The prototype planned for UK car drivers should be introduced for lorries in Germany this year and in the UK in 2006. However, a compulsory extension to every vehicle would be a big political risk.
Leading German motoring journalist Wolfgang König believes the lorry toll is a Trojan horse for all vehicles - for tolling and speeding. 'Speeders could be easily identified and electronically charged. Any place, any time,' König said last week.
In Britain, the Freight Transport Association went further. It believes the equipment will be used to put speed limiters on every car. 'You won't be able to go faster than the limit, no matter how hard you press the pedal,' said Gavin Scott, the association's policy manager.
The company behind the technology said the only problems were political. Nick Rendell, managing director of the UK subsidiary of Siemens, which is making the black boxes in Germany, said politicians would only be concerned about winning votes. But with speeding being the biggest single cause of death on the roads, there would also be pressure to introduce it, he added.
Speeding is blamed for a third of the 3,600 annual deaths on Britain's roads. The Department for Transport acknowledges research that has shown how automatic speed limiters could cut fatal accidents by a fifth. 'Clearly if people wanted to save lots of life on the roads they could reduce the speeding of vehicles,' Rendell said.
Opposing attempts to crack down on speeding is a sensitive issue as no one wants to be seen as supporting something dangerous and against the law. The latest government figures showed that more than half of drivers broke the limit in 30mph zones and more than a quarter in 40mph areas.
However, motoring organisations have warned of a possible backlash against the whole tolling system and that the plans were a step too far. Edmund King, director of the RAC Foundation, said drivers were right to be concerned. 'There's no doubt the technology is there already... it's just a question of how it's used. In some areas, being able to track vehicles could have very positive consequences, [but] do we in this society want all our movements to be monitored 24 hours a day?' King said.
Launching his national consultation, Transport Secretary Alistair Darling repeated the Government's promise not to introduce national tolling before 2010. But advisers believe a national system could be in place in a decade. The RAC said the Government should promote benefits of the black boxes to win support.
Possible additions could include satellite navigation and congestion warnings and help in finding parking spaces and automatic payment. Private companies could offer location-based services, such as searching for cheap hotels.
The AA Motoring Trust, the policy arm of the organisation, wants Ministers to set up a board representing motorists, which would monitor how information was used.
A Department for Transport official said it was too soon to discuss black boxes for cars.
Have your say
Email your view to letters@observer.co.uk
(Please insert 'Letter to the editor' in the subject field)
Note the quote "with speeding being the biggest single cause of death on the roads"
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1011463,00.html
Black box in car to trap speed drivers
Juliette Jowit, transport editor
Sunday August 3, 2003
The Observer
Drivers face automatic speeding fines without being caught by the police or roadside cameras under a proposal being studied by the Government to fit all cars with satellite tracking devices for road tolls.
Under the anti-congestion tolling plan being examined by the Department for Transport, all vehicles would be fitted with a 'black box' to charge drivers according to the type of road they are using and when they are driving.
But transport experts believe the equipment will pave the way for 24-hour monitoring of drivers to see if they break the speed limit. It could also be used to determine whether drivers were speeding before an accident.
The Government is backing trials of an advanced system which would tell the black box when it entered a speed limit and prevent the vehicle going faster. The equipment could also find drivers who have not paid vehicle duty or insurance.
The system would use global positioning systems and computer technology. It would be easy to catch speeders and there are no legal obstacles - tachographs in lorries, which record speed and length of time behind the wheel, are already examined after accidents.
'It [the equipment] probably will be used for speeding,' said Tony Grayling, associate director of the centre-left Institute for Public Policy Research think-tank. 'It's an offence to break the limit and it's appropriate that evidence is generated to demonstrate the law has been broken.'
Much of the technology that would be used for the tolling devices is already in lorry tachographs, and in commercial satellite navigation devices. The prototype planned for UK car drivers should be introduced for lorries in Germany this year and in the UK in 2006. However, a compulsory extension to every vehicle would be a big political risk.
Leading German motoring journalist Wolfgang König believes the lorry toll is a Trojan horse for all vehicles - for tolling and speeding. 'Speeders could be easily identified and electronically charged. Any place, any time,' König said last week.
In Britain, the Freight Transport Association went further. It believes the equipment will be used to put speed limiters on every car. 'You won't be able to go faster than the limit, no matter how hard you press the pedal,' said Gavin Scott, the association's policy manager.
The company behind the technology said the only problems were political. Nick Rendell, managing director of the UK subsidiary of Siemens, which is making the black boxes in Germany, said politicians would only be concerned about winning votes. But with speeding being the biggest single cause of death on the roads, there would also be pressure to introduce it, he added.
Speeding is blamed for a third of the 3,600 annual deaths on Britain's roads. The Department for Transport acknowledges research that has shown how automatic speed limiters could cut fatal accidents by a fifth. 'Clearly if people wanted to save lots of life on the roads they could reduce the speeding of vehicles,' Rendell said.
Opposing attempts to crack down on speeding is a sensitive issue as no one wants to be seen as supporting something dangerous and against the law. The latest government figures showed that more than half of drivers broke the limit in 30mph zones and more than a quarter in 40mph areas.
However, motoring organisations have warned of a possible backlash against the whole tolling system and that the plans were a step too far. Edmund King, director of the RAC Foundation, said drivers were right to be concerned. 'There's no doubt the technology is there already... it's just a question of how it's used. In some areas, being able to track vehicles could have very positive consequences, [but] do we in this society want all our movements to be monitored 24 hours a day?' King said.
Launching his national consultation, Transport Secretary Alistair Darling repeated the Government's promise not to introduce national tolling before 2010. But advisers believe a national system could be in place in a decade. The RAC said the Government should promote benefits of the black boxes to win support.
Possible additions could include satellite navigation and congestion warnings and help in finding parking spaces and automatic payment. Private companies could offer location-based services, such as searching for cheap hotels.
The AA Motoring Trust, the policy arm of the organisation, wants Ministers to set up a board representing motorists, which would monitor how information was used.
A Department for Transport official said it was too soon to discuss black boxes for cars.
Have your say
Email your view to letters@observer.co.uk
(Please insert 'Letter to the editor' in the subject field)
But seriously if this works off GPS then it is doomed to failure, as GPS just isnt good enough for the job at ground level.
My own sat nav system decided i way in kettering the other day, when in fact I was about 15 miles away in northampton, and this is down to it only being able to see 2 satelites instead of the minimum 3 required to triangulate.
Hence I would be clocked doing a zillion miles an hour from one place to the next.
They would never be able to make evidence from these boxes stand up in court, they are just not accurate enough when down at gound zero
My own sat nav system decided i way in kettering the other day, when in fact I was about 15 miles away in northampton, and this is down to it only being able to see 2 satelites instead of the minimum 3 required to triangulate.
Hence I would be clocked doing a zillion miles an hour from one place to the next.
They would never be able to make evidence from these boxes stand up in court, they are just not accurate enough when down at gound zero
Hmmm...it's way too hot and sticky to get fully raised heckles over this.
On the other hand...
Get fckued, you civil war inducing, social engineering gimps!!! Die, die, DIE!!! 
You have to say, this train of thought really is THE END for motoring as a pastime; the Tories should be picking this one up and running like crazy.
Unchecked, these assholes, together with their European comrades, will have Johnny Subject the length and breadth of this land trussed up better than the fattest prime basted turkey ever to grace the copious kitchen dans Le Palais de Jean Prescott Hall.
Absolutely - they must not succeed!
On the other hand...
Get fckued, you civil war inducing, social engineering gimps!!! Die, die, DIE!!! You have to say, this train of thought really is THE END for motoring as a pastime; the Tories should be picking this one up and running like crazy.
Unchecked, these assholes, together with their European comrades, will have Johnny Subject the length and breadth of this land trussed up better than the fattest prime basted turkey ever to grace the copious kitchen dans Le Palais de Jean Prescott Hall.
Absolutely
- they must not succeed!
Don't underestimate the power and sophistication of the Conservative Party machine.
It is no coincidence that you are starting to see a lot of press coverage on motorists being victimized and repressed by so-called Big Brother tactics. The CP back office is actively briefing to gain the motorist's vote. It wasn't coincidence that IDS is now driving a great British sports car icon. Low key, and probably subliminal, but nevertheless contributory to the overall picture. Of course the motorist won't be the central part of the official policy line when that is rolled out next year. That will rightly be focused on the excesses of the non-productive infrastructure burden that is crippling the health service, education and local govenment and feeding the cancer of increasing taxation. But mobilizing anti-New Labour momentum through the motorist is already being orchestrated in advance of the disclosure of the Conservative party mandate for election. As was said yesterday by Lord Bell: "Voters vote against the Government, they don't vote for the Opposition Party".
It has begun.
It is no coincidence that you are starting to see a lot of press coverage on motorists being victimized and repressed by so-called Big Brother tactics. The CP back office is actively briefing to gain the motorist's vote. It wasn't coincidence that IDS is now driving a great British sports car icon. Low key, and probably subliminal, but nevertheless contributory to the overall picture. Of course the motorist won't be the central part of the official policy line when that is rolled out next year. That will rightly be focused on the excesses of the non-productive infrastructure burden that is crippling the health service, education and local govenment and feeding the cancer of increasing taxation. But mobilizing anti-New Labour momentum through the motorist is already being orchestrated in advance of the disclosure of the Conservative party mandate for election. As was said yesterday by Lord Bell: "Voters vote against the Government, they don't vote for the Opposition Party".
It has begun.
One of the most worrying aspects of this proposal is the falibilty of technology. If I were driving at 70 down the M1 and then the box decided it was a 20mph limit. So my car slams the brakes on. Mass pile up and many deaths and injuries.
An other issue is that if an amubulance needs to get past a driver, it is sometimes safer to accelerate out of the way. At least with photo evidence you can argue in court that you were assisting the emergency services.
And the final point being registration cloning. How long before someone manages to hack the box and pretend to be someone else. Again there is no photographic evidence to prove it was not you. This removes the cornerstone of british justice that you are innocent until proven guilty. We will be assumed guilty unless we can prove our innocence.
I cannot express hows discussed I am at these proposals. And the govenment will no doubt insist that motorists pay to have the boxes installed.
ID cards, black boxes, what next - chips installed at birth, thought police?
An other issue is that if an amubulance needs to get past a driver, it is sometimes safer to accelerate out of the way. At least with photo evidence you can argue in court that you were assisting the emergency services.
And the final point being registration cloning. How long before someone manages to hack the box and pretend to be someone else. Again there is no photographic evidence to prove it was not you. This removes the cornerstone of british justice that you are innocent until proven guilty. We will be assumed guilty unless we can prove our innocence.
I cannot express hows discussed I am at these proposals. And the govenment will no doubt insist that motorists pay to have the boxes installed.
ID cards, black boxes, what next - chips installed at birth, thought police?
FWIW I just sent the following letter to the Editor of the Observer:
Dear Sir,
Am I alone (I suspect not) in becoming utterly sickened by the insidious erosion of personal freedom that is taking place under this Government's tenure of office? The article entitled "Black box in car to trap speed drivers" provides ample evidence of the way in which, as a Nation, we are being repressed by pseudo-Government initiatives that have been spawned by the proliferation of unproductive, administrative infrastructure under New Labour. The individual citizen in this (once Great) country is losing rights and priviledges because people and organizations facilitated by this proliferation are mobilising technology that enables control. With control comes power, and in the case of the motorist, control generates revenue that acts as a fuel for further repressive activities. Power that is vested outside of the Government infringes on the rights of the individual since it is exerted without recourse to any moderating process. The latest intended victim is the motorist and tomorrow, who knows? This cannot go on.
Sincerely,
Nick Yeo
Dear Sir,
Am I alone (I suspect not) in becoming utterly sickened by the insidious erosion of personal freedom that is taking place under this Government's tenure of office? The article entitled "Black box in car to trap speed drivers" provides ample evidence of the way in which, as a Nation, we are being repressed by pseudo-Government initiatives that have been spawned by the proliferation of unproductive, administrative infrastructure under New Labour. The individual citizen in this (once Great) country is losing rights and priviledges because people and organizations facilitated by this proliferation are mobilising technology that enables control. With control comes power, and in the case of the motorist, control generates revenue that acts as a fuel for further repressive activities. Power that is vested outside of the Government infringes on the rights of the individual since it is exerted without recourse to any moderating process. The latest intended victim is the motorist and tomorrow, who knows? This cannot go on.
Sincerely,
Nick Yeo
Ive just sent this to the observer:
Dear sir,
I refer to sundays's Observer and the article regarding the fitting of "black boxes", the article being written by Juliette Jowit.
More persecution of motorists is on the way it would seem.
Are there NO lengths this corrupt government will not go to, in order to bolster the treasury's coffers off of the backs of so called "speeders"?
Not content with breeding speed cameras in their thousands, they then introduce unmarked vans, laser speed measuring devices protruding from the rear, prosecuting for minor infractions; quota led prosecutions to maximise revenue.
Drivers have no defence in law, they have no rights to silence, the penalties for failure to disclose who was driving being as high as £1000 per "offence",despite not knowing in some cases, persued to the maximum the law will allow. The magistrates courts are geared to get maximum throughput, and its in their interests to do so. They profit directly from the "netting off" scheme, sharing the spoils of their ill gotten gains.
If thats not enough, they rename speed cameras to "safety cameras" in a cynical attempt to make them "acceptable" to those they steal from.
And now we have 24 hour "surveillance" boxes to be fitted into every vehicle, (at the owners expense, naturally!) so as to get even more revenue from those who would DARE to travel at 40mph in a 30mph zone today, in what was yesterday a 60zone at 01:00am. Its all about cash.
The "safety" camera partnerships would have us believe they are doing a sterling job, "saving lives in a flash" one proudly proclaims, yet when questioned, NO evidence is supplied on the lives they claim to have saved, crowing only that theyve "made" £190,000 in 3 months, and 3000 plus drivers were caught.
Numbers of drivers expected to be prosecuted are predicted to skyrocket, the fines amounting to millions. And yet the lives are still lost. The cameras keep flashing, the drivers still getting caught proving that their whole presumptions that theyre saving lives is a fantasy, a delusion.
Cameras were introduced in 1992 if memory serves, right in the middle of an already in-progress downward trend in accidents. The result isnt as the partnerships would have us believe; In most cases accidents have gone UP, since those cameras were installed.
Dubious methods of measuring those KSI figures are also in evidence. The figures being bumped up by illegal drivers, DUI's and joyriders who crash and burn whilst being persued by police.
These figures are added in to the usual "normal" KSI's for a road with the express intentions of putting a camera up to make yet more revenue.
No wonder speed cameras have been renamed by drivers to Scameras. No wonder a group of disaffected motorists and bikers calling themselves MAD is destroying them. No wonder at all.
Dear sir,
I refer to sundays's Observer and the article regarding the fitting of "black boxes", the article being written by Juliette Jowit.
More persecution of motorists is on the way it would seem.
Are there NO lengths this corrupt government will not go to, in order to bolster the treasury's coffers off of the backs of so called "speeders"?
Not content with breeding speed cameras in their thousands, they then introduce unmarked vans, laser speed measuring devices protruding from the rear, prosecuting for minor infractions; quota led prosecutions to maximise revenue.
Drivers have no defence in law, they have no rights to silence, the penalties for failure to disclose who was driving being as high as £1000 per "offence",despite not knowing in some cases, persued to the maximum the law will allow. The magistrates courts are geared to get maximum throughput, and its in their interests to do so. They profit directly from the "netting off" scheme, sharing the spoils of their ill gotten gains.
If thats not enough, they rename speed cameras to "safety cameras" in a cynical attempt to make them "acceptable" to those they steal from.
And now we have 24 hour "surveillance" boxes to be fitted into every vehicle, (at the owners expense, naturally!) so as to get even more revenue from those who would DARE to travel at 40mph in a 30mph zone today, in what was yesterday a 60zone at 01:00am. Its all about cash.
The "safety" camera partnerships would have us believe they are doing a sterling job, "saving lives in a flash" one proudly proclaims, yet when questioned, NO evidence is supplied on the lives they claim to have saved, crowing only that theyve "made" £190,000 in 3 months, and 3000 plus drivers were caught.
Numbers of drivers expected to be prosecuted are predicted to skyrocket, the fines amounting to millions. And yet the lives are still lost. The cameras keep flashing, the drivers still getting caught proving that their whole presumptions that theyre saving lives is a fantasy, a delusion.
Cameras were introduced in 1992 if memory serves, right in the middle of an already in-progress downward trend in accidents. The result isnt as the partnerships would have us believe; In most cases accidents have gone UP, since those cameras were installed.
Dubious methods of measuring those KSI figures are also in evidence. The figures being bumped up by illegal drivers, DUI's and joyriders who crash and burn whilst being persued by police.
These figures are added in to the usual "normal" KSI's for a road with the express intentions of putting a camera up to make yet more revenue.
No wonder speed cameras have been renamed by drivers to Scameras. No wonder a group of disaffected motorists and bikers calling themselves MAD is destroying them. No wonder at all.
"Speeding is blamed for a third of the 3,600 annual deaths on Britain's roads. The Department for Transport acknowledges research that has shown how automatic speed limiters could cut fatal accidents by a fifth."
So speed is blamed for 33% of deaths yet fitting speed limiters so a vehicle cannot speed will only cut deaths by 20%? Where's my calculator?
So speed is blamed for 33% of deaths yet fitting speed limiters so a vehicle cannot speed will only cut deaths by 20%? Where's my calculator?
3 things. Firstly, from cold, GPS systems can take upwards of 6 minutes to find 3 satallites. (Much, much longer if you live in a city).
Secondly, little lead jackets for the antenna(s). Problem solved.
Thirdly, as suggested these boxes will store the data locally. I suspect it will last about as long as copy protected CDs.....
Secondly, little lead jackets for the antenna(s). Problem solved.
Thirdly, as suggested these boxes will store the data locally. I suspect it will last about as long as copy protected CDs.....
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