bike engined locost/ mk indy pros and cons
Discussion
I am becoming increasingly interested in a bike engined car. searching through the ad's on pistonheads, Locost and MK indy's seem popular. i was wondering what the pro's and cons are for these kit manufactures.
on a budget of around £6.5k for a fully built secondhand car,
i would use the car for road/track/nurburgring trips.
i like the idea of a fuel injected R1 engine rather than an early blade engine.
disk brakes all round and an LSD.
would either manufacturer suit my needs better than the other and is there another make that i should look at?
can anyone point me in the right direction?
on a budget of around £6.5k for a fully built secondhand car,
i would use the car for road/track/nurburgring trips.
i like the idea of a fuel injected R1 engine rather than an early blade engine.
disk brakes all round and an LSD.
would either manufacturer suit my needs better than the other and is there another make that i should look at?
can anyone point me in the right direction?
Have you been in one? Go for a ride before deciding a ring trip would be a good idea. I use mine (MK Indy R1) for track days but it gets trailered everywhere. I do use it on the road when the weather's nice but not seriously.
They punch well above their weight performance-wise and for your budget you may just get an R1 car but the likelihood is it will be an earlier carbed engine. Don't discount the blade engine. In the right kit, built down to a weight with the right parts you'd have a great package on your hands. If you're in the north west then I'd happily take you for a spin sometime, otherwise if you're anywhere near the MK factory then most Saturday mornings is playtime. Two other manufacturers who make similar 7 style cars are MNR and Mac1.
Also, if the car doesn't quite meet your spec then don't be put off. I went disc rear end and LSD after buying my car and it's a simple enough conversion.
They punch well above their weight performance-wise and for your budget you may just get an R1 car but the likelihood is it will be an earlier carbed engine. Don't discount the blade engine. In the right kit, built down to a weight with the right parts you'd have a great package on your hands. If you're in the north west then I'd happily take you for a spin sometime, otherwise if you're anywhere near the MK factory then most Saturday mornings is playtime. Two other manufacturers who make similar 7 style cars are MNR and Mac1.
Also, if the car doesn't quite meet your spec then don't be put off. I went disc rear end and LSD after buying my car and it's a simple enough conversion.
Basically, what he said!
Although it would appear you are unaware of what a Locost is. It doesn't have a manufacturer as such, as these are the home built versions! That doesn't make them lesser vehicles, but you do need to be more aware of what you're buying. You really will need to go have a ride in one, as nothing comes close to being in one. I love mine to bits, but will be selling it soon as I need something more practical. BECs (bike engined cars) tend to not have windscreens, or any other extraneous parts, as low weight is the entire aim of the game. Mine has no carpet, no heater, no padding on the seats and I have to wear a crash hat above 25 mph. BUT it is the most fun I've ever had in a car!
Although it would appear you are unaware of what a Locost is. It doesn't have a manufacturer as such, as these are the home built versions! That doesn't make them lesser vehicles, but you do need to be more aware of what you're buying. You really will need to go have a ride in one, as nothing comes close to being in one. I love mine to bits, but will be selling it soon as I need something more practical. BECs (bike engined cars) tend to not have windscreens, or any other extraneous parts, as low weight is the entire aim of the game. Mine has no carpet, no heater, no padding on the seats and I have to wear a crash hat above 25 mph. BUT it is the most fun I've ever had in a car!
thanks for the replies. i would love to take up the offer of a passenger run, i may, if the plan of buying one goes ahead!
i was thinking of the R1 engine as it is reported to be a strong package in respect of reliablity and power. as i am a 'big unit' myself, i want to keep the bhp per ton figure up!
may i ask a few more question:
1)so a locost is a diy build? is a mk indy a factory build or diy?
2)i've read something about the front suspension set up on a locost has some problems- can anyone shed some light on this?
3)what is regaurded as the better car- the mac1, mnr, a well built locost or the mk indy?
4) do all these cars use sierra parts (hubs, steering, brakes)?
cheers
i was thinking of the R1 engine as it is reported to be a strong package in respect of reliablity and power. as i am a 'big unit' myself, i want to keep the bhp per ton figure up!
may i ask a few more question:
1)so a locost is a diy build? is a mk indy a factory build or diy?
2)i've read something about the front suspension set up on a locost has some problems- can anyone shed some light on this?
3)what is regaurded as the better car- the mac1, mnr, a well built locost or the mk indy?
4) do all these cars use sierra parts (hubs, steering, brakes)?
cheers
1) A locost is a completely DIY build. If done in the full locost way, the chassis will be home made as will the suspension components. The other kits can be factory built, or you can assembly the parts yourself. This is part of why the fit and finish can vary so widely! Even Caterham's can be home built (apart from the higher end models).
2)The front suspension can suffer from alack of castor angle. This is easily sorted in one of two ways. Either move the top wishbone backwards, or use new/different bones that move the outer pick up point backwards.
3)Depends who you ask! MNR seem to do quite a lot of R&D/racing, so they are forever updating the chassis and suspension set ups. I don't know much about Mac1. The MK has a known problem with the rear suspension set up, in that IIRC it gains positive camber in roll. However, I'm not good enough in these type of cars to actually notice it on mine! There are also quite plentiful, so choice is wide and often a bit cheaper. A well built locost can be just as light and as well set up as any other car, since the builder can "borrow" ideas from other main stream manufacturers! When I was first making a chassis I just copied all the extra tubing and strengthening parts from other chassis!
4) Many now use sierra parts, although locost's were designed originally to use cortina uprights and escort live axles. Most are now IRS using a sierra or freelander diff. However, a locost can be built with just about anything! There are also ally version of most of the main components available, if funds allow!
Things like ally uprights, rear discs, LSD's and so on can be left for future upgrades as you get used to the car, however it is often cheaper to stretch the original budget and buy a car with them, as it will be cheaper that way.
2)The front suspension can suffer from alack of castor angle. This is easily sorted in one of two ways. Either move the top wishbone backwards, or use new/different bones that move the outer pick up point backwards.
3)Depends who you ask! MNR seem to do quite a lot of R&D/racing, so they are forever updating the chassis and suspension set ups. I don't know much about Mac1. The MK has a known problem with the rear suspension set up, in that IIRC it gains positive camber in roll. However, I'm not good enough in these type of cars to actually notice it on mine! There are also quite plentiful, so choice is wide and often a bit cheaper. A well built locost can be just as light and as well set up as any other car, since the builder can "borrow" ideas from other main stream manufacturers! When I was first making a chassis I just copied all the extra tubing and strengthening parts from other chassis!
4) Many now use sierra parts, although locost's were designed originally to use cortina uprights and escort live axles. Most are now IRS using a sierra or freelander diff. However, a locost can be built with just about anything! There are also ally version of most of the main components available, if funds allow!
Things like ally uprights, rear discs, LSD's and so on can be left for future upgrades as you get used to the car, however it is often cheaper to stretch the original budget and buy a car with them, as it will be cheaper that way.
I'm a big unit myself and before the R1 my car had a blade engine. It was great in terms of performance/pound. You'll be shocked by what you can stay with on track. I upgraded to the R1 very recently and have yet to try it in anger, beginning to wonder why I bothered TBH but I was seduced by an extra 20bhp or so. I am also hoping it will be a bit better two up. Be great when it's sorted I'm sure.
I have seen the positive camber issue in action on my photos but it's undetectable in the car. I have no trouble staying with other 7 style cars with similar power/weight so it's never been a real world issue. I've also had the suspension set up which dramatically improved turn in, reducing understeer. My car was very poorly set up when I bought it and I think it's common to find this. Allow a little in your budget for this unless you buy from someone like me. Hmm, wanna buy a running but slightly "work in progress" R1 Indy?
I have seen the positive camber issue in action on my photos but it's undetectable in the car. I have no trouble staying with other 7 style cars with similar power/weight so it's never been a real world issue. I've also had the suspension set up which dramatically improved turn in, reducing understeer. My car was very poorly set up when I bought it and I think it's common to find this. Allow a little in your budget for this unless you buy from someone like me. Hmm, wanna buy a running but slightly "work in progress" R1 Indy?
thanks again for the responses.
i think its the mk that appeals to me at the this stage in my kit car life. A locost may be too much of a gamble if i cant spot the tell tale signs of a bad build
if a MK had an open diff, what amount of work and cost would be required to add a LSD?
why do some cars have a Q plate while others have standard reg letter?
@Jubal - how much of a work in progress are we talking about with regards your car?
i think its the mk that appeals to me at the this stage in my kit car life. A locost may be too much of a gamble if i cant spot the tell tale signs of a bad build
if a MK had an open diff, what amount of work and cost would be required to add a LSD?
why do some cars have a Q plate while others have standard reg letter?
@Jubal - how much of a work in progress are we talking about with regards your car?
Edited by teabagger on Tuesday 18th March 18:07
Depending upon what type of diff is already fitted, either push in or bolt on shafts, then not a lot! IIRC all the sierra LSD's are push in shafts, so would just require a new diff. If you have bolt on shafts you'll need new ones.
PS, if you have a spare blackbird engine lying about, you can have my Indy too!
Oh, cost wise, a good LSD can go for anything up to £300 or so. Shafts would probably be extra, but not by much. Depending upon engine choice, diff ratio will be important. The 3.62 in mine is too short and I could do with a 3.32 or 3.14. However, the LSD's are 3.62. The crown wheel and pinions can be changed over from one push in diff to another. So if you get a 3.14 push in diff and an LSD you then put the two together and get the ideal 3.14 LSD.
PS, if you have a spare blackbird engine lying about, you can have my Indy too!
Oh, cost wise, a good LSD can go for anything up to £300 or so. Shafts would probably be extra, but not by much. Depending upon engine choice, diff ratio will be important. The 3.62 in mine is too short and I could do with a 3.32 or 3.14. However, the LSD's are 3.62. The crown wheel and pinions can be changed over from one push in diff to another. So if you get a 3.14 push in diff and an LSD you then put the two together and get the ideal 3.14 LSD.
Edited by Snake the Sniper on Tuesday 18th March 18:36
The opposite is true. All of the LSDs are bolt on shafts. I went open diff to LSD and it involved a change of shafts, hubs and uprights.
My car is 95% finished with a 2003 R1 engine conversion. It starts, stops and goes but there's some work to be done on the wiring, the dash isn't fully operational and cosmetically the car needs some tidying. It's a bit over three years old. Mail me via my profile if you want some pics and vids. There is one pic in my profile already. The only reason I may sell is that I have my eye on something else.
The Q plate thing is to do with the car being of indeterminate age. That is, not enough of the donor parts were used to get an age related plate and not enough new parts to get a new plate. A Q plate is a good thing for a BEC because the MOT is smoke test only. It's a bad thing for resale value because people have a perception about them. Mine's on a G plate and needs a cat to pass the MOT.
My car is 95% finished with a 2003 R1 engine conversion. It starts, stops and goes but there's some work to be done on the wiring, the dash isn't fully operational and cosmetically the car needs some tidying. It's a bit over three years old. Mail me via my profile if you want some pics and vids. There is one pic in my profile already. The only reason I may sell is that I have my eye on something else.
The Q plate thing is to do with the car being of indeterminate age. That is, not enough of the donor parts were used to get an age related plate and not enough new parts to get a new plate. A Q plate is a good thing for a BEC because the MOT is smoke test only. It's a bad thing for resale value because people have a perception about them. Mine's on a G plate and needs a cat to pass the MOT.
teabagger said:
this is all good info
i think i am going to look for something that is ready to go and has the right spec from the start
i think a meet or the trackday is the next step for me!
thanks again.
That's probably a good move really, especially if you've never owned a kit before. But you need to increase your budget if you want your ideal spec.i think i am going to look for something that is ready to go and has the right spec from the start
i think a meet or the trackday is the next step for me!
thanks again.
Jubal said:
I'm a big unit myself and before the R1 my car had a blade engine. It was great in terms of performance/pound. You'll be shocked by what you can stay with on track. I upgraded to the R1 very recently and have yet to try it in anger, beginning to wonder why I bothered TBH but I was seduced by an extra 20bhp or so. I am also hoping it will be a bit better two up. Be great when it's sorted I'm sure.
I have seen the positive camber issue in action on my photos but it's undetectable in the car. I have no trouble staying with other 7 style cars with similar power/weight so it's never been a real world issue. I've also had the suspension set up which dramatically improved turn in, reducing understeer. My car was very poorly set up when I bought it and I think it's common to find this. Allow a little in your budget for this unless you buy from someone like me. Hmm, wanna buy a running but slightly "work in progress" R1 Indy?
you have mail I have seen the positive camber issue in action on my photos but it's undetectable in the car. I have no trouble staying with other 7 style cars with similar power/weight so it's never been a real world issue. I've also had the suspension set up which dramatically improved turn in, reducing understeer. My car was very poorly set up when I bought it and I think it's common to find this. Allow a little in your budget for this unless you buy from someone like me. Hmm, wanna buy a running but slightly "work in progress" R1 Indy?
Hi
A locost is not a problem if the chassis is built by a professional - despite its origins there are 'manufacturers' who produce a locost chassis - a live axle is the biggest difference, and while not high-tech, it's easier to get optimal performance from a live axle than reap the rewards of a more complex IRS set-up.
Personally, I've owned a MK and am just finishing the build of my MNR track car - see my profile for a pic. You pays your money, you takes your choice. I think you should rule nothing out and concentrate on getting the best built car that you can for your money!
A locost is not a problem if the chassis is built by a professional - despite its origins there are 'manufacturers' who produce a locost chassis - a live axle is the biggest difference, and while not high-tech, it's easier to get optimal performance from a live axle than reap the rewards of a more complex IRS set-up.
Personally, I've owned a MK and am just finishing the build of my MNR track car - see my profile for a pic. You pays your money, you takes your choice. I think you should rule nothing out and concentrate on getting the best built car that you can for your money!
There are so many BECs to choose from that I would not make any desicion until you have sat in some and got a real idea of the whole experience.
The use of these cars is very dependant on weather, and unless you want to have full hood etc, then factor in either getting wet, wearing waterproofs, or taking the tin top instead.
Secondly, Make sure the BEC is what you really want. As others have said, jump in and get a spin out in it. At full chat they are very loud, but it all adds to the experience.
You say your a big lad, I am very tall, and just fit in my MK Indy. I am getting this built for me by a workshop called the BEC Center. Is good to be able to get things like steering height, seating position, even colour chosen.
I drived in at the deep end and went for Disks all round for a xr4x4, LSD Diff, R888 Semi Slicks, Paddleshift etc. All however are upgradeable and interchangeable.
I do not have the patience to build my own, but I am regularly doing various bits on my mates Westfield Megabusa.
The use of these cars is very dependant on weather, and unless you want to have full hood etc, then factor in either getting wet, wearing waterproofs, or taking the tin top instead.
Secondly, Make sure the BEC is what you really want. As others have said, jump in and get a spin out in it. At full chat they are very loud, but it all adds to the experience.
You say your a big lad, I am very tall, and just fit in my MK Indy. I am getting this built for me by a workshop called the BEC Center. Is good to be able to get things like steering height, seating position, even colour chosen.
I drived in at the deep end and went for Disks all round for a xr4x4, LSD Diff, R888 Semi Slicks, Paddleshift etc. All however are upgradeable and interchangeable.
I do not have the patience to build my own, but I am regularly doing various bits on my mates Westfield Megabusa.
Strange question MK related.... i was lucky enough to drive an MK'blade around Brands Hatch last year. Was very impressed, felt lots of the old experiences I felt in my old Furyblade. But twice in 6 laps it "shimmyed" about 2ft offline going down the main straight at about 100mph. Just a little wobble to the left and tracked straight again, that I did not ask it to do. Not saying this is a trait of an MK or even 7'esque types in general due to aerodynamics, but can anyone explain why it did it. The answer I got from the owner was "they all do that", seriously, but it has intruiged me ever since. I cannot believe they all do it!!! Top car other than that, felt very solid.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&t=5081779
That the link to my WIP (work in progress), comments welcome
Would also reconmend www.locostbuilders.co.uk for lots more info.
Good luck
That the link to my WIP (work in progress), comments welcome
Would also reconmend www.locostbuilders.co.uk for lots more info.
Good luck
Edited by kriss on Tuesday 25th March 18:57
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