Tell me about Cooper S's!

[Mike_C]

Hi all,

I'm looking for a more fun option to replace my otherwise brilliant E46 320D Sport. I've looked at all sorts, all with their pro's and con's. These include 330D Sport (expensive to buy a good 'un), 330Ci (too expensive to run), Clio 182 (build quality woes), Megane 225 (poor fuel economy), Civic Type R (equally poor fuel economy), S2000 (even worst fuel economy!), Elise (huge insurance premium), VX220 (still a possibility), etc etc - you get the idea!

So, regarrding the Cooper S, I have a couple of questions:

- Which packs are worth having and which are not?
_ What other extras are worthwhile (e.g. is the sat nav any good, does the panoramic roof leak, etc?!)
- Is the real-world difference between a 210bhp car and a standard Cooper S noticeable/worthwhile? Which is the best 210bhp car to go for? Works, Lohen, Hartge, AC Schnitzer...?!
- Why do most of the cars I'm looking at have 40k on the clock - is there a big expensive service looming?
- TLC packs - are they transferrable, renewable, etc?
- Were there any recalls and how can I check they've been done?
- Whats the fuel economy like on a Cooper S? I do around 200 miles/week commute plus another 200-500 a month other driving, so I do require half decent fuel economy. I drive pretty swiftly but don't thrash it about (although sometimes its good to have a good drive!)
- How much does it cost to fill up a Cooper S from empty, do they take 95Ron or super unleaded, and how many miles can you get from a tank? What does this equate to in MPG?
- Are the Cooper S's a 6-speed box? An old work colleage had a Cooper which I loved, but even on a dual carrigeway it was buzzing away something chronic!!

Thanks very much, and sorry for so many questions but your responses are appreciated!!

[Hobzy]

Mike_C said:

Hi all,

I'm looking for a more fun option to replace my otherwise brilliant E46 320D Sport. I've looked at all sorts, all with their pro's and con's. These include 330D Sport (expensive to buy a good 'un), 330Ci (too expensive to run), Clio 182 (build quality woes), Megane 225 (poor fuel economy), Civic Type R (equally poor fuel economy), S2000 (even worst fuel economy!), Elise (huge insurance premium), VX220 (still a possibility), etc etc - you get the idea!

So, regarrding the Cooper S, I have a couple of questions:

- Which packs are worth having and which are not?

Chilli pack minimum

- What other extras are worthwhile (e.g. is the sat nav any good, does the panoramic roof leak, etc?!)

None - they all add weight

- Is the real-world difference between a 210bhp car and a standard Cooper S noticeable/worthwhile?

Yes, lots. But only worth it if you drive in a "spirited fashion"

-Which is the best 210bhp car to go for? Works, Lohen, Hartge, AC Schnitzer...?!

Depends on what you have to spend and what age car you are looking at. They are likely to be around the same price second hand, but there is more perceivable piece of mind with the Works for obvious reasons. Mine is a Works that has had work done by Lohen and GTT. Never had a problem with any of it.

- Why do most of the cars I'm looking at have 40k on the clock - is there a big expensive service looming?

Nope - 3rd service is at 25000 or 3 years. there is one at 50,000 i think too. Mines only got 26000 on a 53 so no idea!

- TLC packs - are they transferrable, renewable, etc?

Yes and yes from a stealer.

- Were there any recalls and how can I check they've been done?

A few of the earlier models had a recall re: fuel filler and grounding. Should be in the log book.

- Whats the fuel economy like on a Cooper S? I do around 200 miles/week commute plus another 200-500 a month other driving, so I do require half decent fuel economy. I drive pretty swiftly but don't thrash it about (although sometimes its good to have a good drive!)

Your buggered then. There are a few people claiming over 35mpg for a Works but I've no idea how. I get around 26 combined if i'm lucky. If your out for an economical car your looking at the wrong thing. Bugger me they're fun though

- How much does it cost to fill up a Cooper S from empty, do they take 95Ron or super unleaded, and how many miles can you get from a tank? What does this equate to in MPG?

Used to be about £40 but a lot nearer £50 now - Works and other conversions should be 97ron. For mpg see above.

- Are the Cooper S's a 6-speed box? An old work colleage had a Cooper which I loved, but even on a dual carrigeway it was buzzing away something chronic!!

6 speed box yes.

Thanks very much, and sorry for so many questions but your responses are appreciated!!

Mine is up for sale soon - lots of additions that I'm not going to list hereOr might put it back to standard 210 works. 53 plate Indi Blue and black...

[Mike_C]

Thanks for the reply mate, spot on! The severe lack of fuel economy concerns me...

[Hobzy]

Obviously with care you can get better mpg - its just that the car screams "press harder!!!!!" everytime you get in it

Cruising at 70 gives well over 30mpg. Its just the temptation to go that little bit quicker the whole time.

I'm only selling it because I am getting a sevenesque kit car and a new bathroom, so its got to go

[Mike_C]

Cooper S or bathroom, Cooper S or bathroom...hmmm! But the '7 makes it worthwhile!

I don't think the MCS is for me sadly - I like to drive quite swiftly and need a car that can be driven as such without being as thirsty as a Civic Type R/Impreza, and the MCS certainly seems as bad as the CTR on fuel!!!

[Hobzy]

Good luck with whatever you choose

[fergy]

Depends on your budget...if you can get a new R56 Cooper S (one with a turbo) then you get a lot better mpg. On runs when behaving I can get 50mpg, and normally get more than 30mpg when doing a short hop through town to work.

Dont be put off by the lower bhp...they are quick.

[Silent1]

THe OH gets 33MPG out of the S that's with a janspeed exhaust 17% pulley and an air filter, so quicker than a works.

[Hobzy]

Silent1 said:

THe OH gets 33MPG out of the S that's with a janspeed exhaust 17% pulley and an air filter, so quicker than a works.

OT but quicker how? JCW is a better exhaust and mani than a standard S (so as good as a Janspeed), a 17% pulley and an upgraded air filter, but also has bigger injectors and a remap? So at the worst should be about the same?

So you don't think I am too biased, my S does have a GTT (which is a Janspeed) high flow mani and Cat as the baffles went in my centre section.

TBH there is so much difference between the base blocks that most any S could be 10+ bhp around the official quoted BHP. Most of the 210ish upgrades are almost inperceptable on track in my experience, and suspension mods and brakes make better value. On the road its what fits your wallet. If I had my time again I wouldn't have the Works Upgrade purely for money reasons. Unfortunately there werent many viable other options at the time and after test driving the Works at John Coopers Garage I was hooked!

Back to BHP - I can get 30+ MPG out of her, but not if giving it some or any town driving. Today it was comfortable at 90 leptons at 34mpg. But at RAF Marham it was down to 9.2 Thats 2 laps per gallon

[Silent1]

Hobzy said:

Silent1 said:

THe OH gets 33MPG out of the S that's with a janspeed exhaust 17% pulley and an air filter, so quicker than a works.

OT but quicker how? JCW is a better exhaust and mani than a standard S (so as good as a Janspeed), a 17% pulley and an upgraded air filter, but also has bigger injectors and a remap? So at the worst should be about the same?

So you don't think I am too biased, my S does have a GTT (which is a Janspeed) high flow mani and Cat as the baffles went in my centre section.

TBH there is so much difference between the base blocks that most any S could be 10+ bhp around the official quoted BHP. Most of the 210ish upgrades are almost inperceptable on track in my experience, and suspension mods and brakes make better value. On the road its what fits your wallet. If I had my time again I wouldn't have the Works Upgrade purely for money reasons. Unfortunately there werent many viable other options at the time and after test driving the Works at John Coopers Garage I was hooked!

Back to BHP - I can get 30+ MPG out of her, but not if giving it some or any town driving. Today it was comfortable at 90 leptons at 34mpg. But at RAF Marham it was down to 9.2 Thats 2 laps per gallon

The works pulley is ~11% so not quite as small as a 17% pulley, so the boost is lower. Most people argue a remap is pointless, certainly 1320 lost bhp when they re-mapped, so for arguments sake, lets say the remap gives +2bhp but sharper response.

The injectors are a safety thing, the standard injectors are flowing 100% at the redline with a 17% pulley, so they're providing all they need but any restriction will lean the engine out.

As for MPG, i wish i could get better than 22mpg out of the car! It does about 6-7mpg when you're flat out accelerating.

[Hobzy]

You are correct on the pulley - my mistake. I'd forgotten my Crank pulley would have made it that equivalent (if I'd ever got round to putting it on )

The remap tends from JCW is fairly minor, and pretty much adjusts for the injectors and I assume for the extra air at 4500 when the flap opens.

Still - makes one wonder why the other upgrades need the 17% to get 210???

BTW, how far did you get with your calcs from that MINI2 thread?

[Silent1]

Hobzy said:

You are correct on the pulley - my mistake. I'd forgotten my Crank pulley would have made it that equivalent (if I'd ever got round to putting it on )

The remap tends from JCW is fairly minor, and pretty much adjusts for the injectors and I assume for the extra air at 4500 when the flap opens.

Still - makes one wonder why the other upgrades need the 17% to get 210???

BTW, how far did you get with your calcs from that MINI2 thread?

They tend to use a 15% for 210bhp

I'm currently working on the thermal inefficiencies of the eaton M45 and a few other variables, like the stupid plastic horn that comes out of the S/C

[dustybottoms]

Cooper S works is a great car and there is a substantial difference in performance and fun over a standard S, which is a very good car in its own right.

It's an individuals choice but when I bought my MINI going the Works route was the only option for me, the heritage and history of John Cooper meant everything to me, certainly in the case of the R53 Cooper S which had massive input from John Cooper directly in it's dynamics and design, meaning that the Works upgrade was the natural and only extension to that in my mind, regardless of more power and cheaper costs offered by other companies.
Having said that, I'm not sure I would feel the same about the latest JCW Cooper S cars as I read somewhere that bar the name there is no connection to the actual John Cooper Works company, which would take the advertising spin to far for me. Of course I may be mistaken on that fact but I'm pretty sure that is what I read. Still, the same could be said about the GP MINI which was never an official JCW Car either.

Can't say I ever had much luck with getting even reasonable MPG with my Works, I was lucky if I ever saw anything better than 27MPG no matter how I drove it. Still I would advise that you don't buy a car like that if MPG is a priority.

Having said all of the above, all new MINI's are great cars and well worth owning and in my opinion you can have as much fun in a one as a Cooper S Works.

Edited by dustybottoms on Saturday 10th May 01:39

[Silent1]

JCG developed the original tuning kit for the R53, when the car was facelifted BMW bought John Cooper Garages and moved the tuning kits in house, leaving JCG doing the motorsport parts.

John Cooper Garages kept going until the end of 2007 when they shut down, BMW then soley developed the kit for the R56, some of the ex-employees from JCG then went and set up MINI Motorsport Centre and took over the MINI Challenge series as part supplier.
Sadly the website hasn't ever been produced so for people like me it's impossible to look at parts they sell without driving across the country.

[Silent1]

dustybottoms said:

Still, the same could be said about the GP MINI which was never an official JCW Car either.

Yes it was! It was the last JCW tuned by JCG

[UKAuto]

You said "Whats the fuel economy like on a Cooper S? I do around 200 miles/week commute plus another 200-500 a month other driving, so I do require half decent fuel economy. I drive pretty swiftly but don't thrash it about (although sometimes its good to have a good drive!)"

My thought on this is 52 weeks at 200 + 12 months at 500 = 16400 miles per year, let's round it way up to 20,000 per year.

Now, what's petrol cost, let's round it up to 5.00 GBP per gallon.

So, based on 20,000 miles per year, at each gas mileage your annual expenditure for fuel in pounds would be as follows.

10 MPG = 10000 GBP
15 MPG = 6666, delta 3333 GBP
20 MPG = 5000, delta 1666 GBP
25 MPG = 4000, delta 1000 GBP
30 MPG = 3333, delta 666 GBP
35 MPG = 2857, delta 476 GBP
40 MPG = 2500, delta 357 GBP
45 MPG = 2222, delta 277 GBP

Note the diminishing delta between 5 MPG steps as you move away from a dramatic 3333 GBP savings going from 10 MPG to 15 MPG, versus the fairly modest delta in the middle as we step from 25 MPG to 30 MPG of a mere 666 (a very appropriate number when we are talking fuel prices!).

Clearly if you are looking at cars that are somewhere in the 25 to 35 MPG range you are only talking about a little over 1000 GBP per year difference in fuel costs top to bottom. This kind of delta can easily be offset by altering your driving style. I am not suggesting eliminating the fun, but when you do find you are covering a long boring motorway stretch consider adjusting your style to fuel efficiency - to that end the option of a fuel mileage computer helps give you real feedback to fuel savings, and will pay for itself.

I drive a Jaguar XK8 as one of my two main drivers, and get about 25 MPG commuting to work when I don't pay attention, and about 32 when I try to economize (but not to a silly degree). My wife has a Cooper S Clubman, and although I haven't driven it enough to get a great idea of how my driving style effects it's mileage, my recollection of the figures the computer gave would support the range of mileage achieved being +/- 25% depending on how I drive. I am not talkning about granny driving versus racing, I mean fairly subtle differences.

Of course having the S makes it well worth the fun of burning gas fast once in a while.

PS, I get better mileage driving the XK8 than our 79 mini with it's 998cc. Buy the car you want, do the math, the extra cost of a little more petrol is small compared to the cost to the soul of buying a boring motor.

Good luck with the decision!

Rob.

[dustybottoms]

Silent1 said:

dustybottoms said:

Still, the same could be said about the GP MINI which was never an official JCW Car either.

Yes it was! It was the last JCW tuned by JCG

Not trying to be difficult, but I didn't believe that was the case, as I understood it the GP was a BMW only performance model (fine car it is too) that happened to utilise the JCW performance upgrade. I am positive that I read on literature from BMW on several occasions that BMW were keen to market the GP as their in house performance model car and not a JCW Model, much like they do with their M BMW models.

[s33gav]

Go get yourself an R53 JCW mate, they're fantastic cars, absolutely fantastic - best car I've ever had (have got an R56 S now and a good car it is, it's not the same...).

As said fuel economy is really poor, I mean really pool - I'd get on average about 25mpg simply because the car is so good to drive.

Then get yourself a sports manifold/cat (GTT etc) and you'll be in seventh heaven, honestly, the sound is amazing. I recently sold my 53 plate with 54k on the clock and I never had any major problems with it.

[Hedgetrimmer]

The cooper s works is excellent but unlikely to be close to its quoted figures as JCG developed an extra powerful fan to cool the intercooler whilst on the rolling road. It is reputed to have generated 100 mph wind through the slit in the bonnet. You would be better off going down the route of someone like GT Tuning or 1320 who will give you much higher power, reliably and for lot less. Have a look at the packages from GTT for value for money. The 11% pulley of the JCW will give a decent increase in power but most of the tuners start at 15% which is safe in the uk. The 11% was a resriction due to problems during hot weather testing abroad as the car needed to be suitable for all climates.

Don't be fooled by the works CNC ported head as it is worth 2-3 bhp!

www.mini2.com is an excellent source of info.

Edited by Hedgetrimmer on Monday 26th May 19:25

[Chris355]

I bought an mcs (02) for my girlfriend to drive and to use as a run-around. I have had m3 cabs, porsche 996 c4 cab, ferrari 348 and 355's. I must say it is a fantastic little car. Handles brilliantly and really quick (I reckon that on twisty tight roads it would loose an M3 without too much effort). Nice build quality too for a little hot hatch. Fuel consumption is remarkable; I do 60% motorway/40% town driving and according to the fuel computer I am getting 40mpg!!!

Standard cd stereo is pretty good too.

Quite a notchy gearbox which I love.

Very hard ride, but plan to get rid of the runflats which will hopefully improve things.

One warning; the boot is very small, in fact the smallest I have ever had with a car! Only gets 3-4 bags of shopping in it!!

In conclusion I absolutely love it and couldnt recommend it highly enough!