XJ8 - Ongoing brake or is it Nikasil problem
Discussion
I've had a problem with my 1998 XJ8 for a couple of years now and have not been able to find someone who can fix it.
The problem
After the car is left parked for a couple of days, when I start the car up there is very little brake power for around 45 seconds and the brake pedal is very mushy. After 45 seconds, the brakes are fine.
I've lived with it for over 2 years now. Was'nt a big problem, but a couple of weeks ago when i took the car out I nearly slammed in to the back of another car in that 45 second initial period.
The attempts to fix
The car is now 10 years old with 32,000 miles on the clock and full main dealer history. The car is in very good condition except for the braking problem. In fact i had an MOT done last month and the tester was amazed at the condition of the car.
In 2005, I took it to 2 Main dealers and one independent. The main dealers could'nt find anything fault with the car. After sending the car to them 3 times, they still could'nt find any problem with teh brakes. it was only when the service manager came to my house and reversed it out the garage that he found the a problem. Aha!!!
The brakes have been bled twice. A slave cylinder replaced and the fault is still there. The independent garage told me I needed a new engine due to a design fault (nikasil liner problem). They found this out by doing a flickup pressure test. I then took it to a main dealer with the results who did a compression test and found the car to be ok. (NOTE: the car is running smooth as silk with no starting problems or smoke).
Anyway... last week i got fed up and sent it to my local Main dealer again. They charged me £244.53 to clean and re-adjust the braking system.
And guess what... the problem is still there.
As it stands, I can't be sure if it is indeed a nikasil problem or a brake issue. If it's the latter i'll have it fixed and keep it.
So far I've spent nearly £1,500 on attempts to have it fixed by three different companies. I've also been in touch with jaguar customer services and and they were'nt much help. Seems my car is the only Jaguar on the planet to have this problem.
A great car, but my patinece is about to end.
Waht should I do?
The problem
After the car is left parked for a couple of days, when I start the car up there is very little brake power for around 45 seconds and the brake pedal is very mushy. After 45 seconds, the brakes are fine.
I've lived with it for over 2 years now. Was'nt a big problem, but a couple of weeks ago when i took the car out I nearly slammed in to the back of another car in that 45 second initial period.
The attempts to fix
The car is now 10 years old with 32,000 miles on the clock and full main dealer history. The car is in very good condition except for the braking problem. In fact i had an MOT done last month and the tester was amazed at the condition of the car.
In 2005, I took it to 2 Main dealers and one independent. The main dealers could'nt find anything fault with the car. After sending the car to them 3 times, they still could'nt find any problem with teh brakes. it was only when the service manager came to my house and reversed it out the garage that he found the a problem. Aha!!!
The brakes have been bled twice. A slave cylinder replaced and the fault is still there. The independent garage told me I needed a new engine due to a design fault (nikasil liner problem). They found this out by doing a flickup pressure test. I then took it to a main dealer with the results who did a compression test and found the car to be ok. (NOTE: the car is running smooth as silk with no starting problems or smoke).
Anyway... last week i got fed up and sent it to my local Main dealer again. They charged me £244.53 to clean and re-adjust the braking system.
And guess what... the problem is still there.
As it stands, I can't be sure if it is indeed a nikasil problem or a brake issue. If it's the latter i'll have it fixed and keep it.
So far I've spent nearly £1,500 on attempts to have it fixed by three different companies. I've also been in touch with jaguar customer services and and they were'nt much help. Seems my car is the only Jaguar on the planet to have this problem.
A great car, but my patinece is about to end.
Waht should I do?
Here's some checks:
Start the engine and apply steady pressure to the brake pedal. If it slowly sinks to the floor the master cylinder is knackered or you have a fluid leak.
Pump the pedal with the engine running. If there is a lot of travel and the pedal feels soft and spongy you may have air in the brake fluid.
Pump the pedal several times with the engine off to dissapate the residual vacuum in the servo. Rest your foot on the brake pedal with gentle pressure and start the engine. You should feel the pedal sink a few mm as the servo builds up vacuum then become firm again. If there is no movement it suggests the servo is not seeing manifold vacuum.
Swich off the engine and remove the vacuum pipe from the servo. It should come off with some difficulty and a hiss of air.
IMO it's unlikley to ba a Nikasil problem as the servo works by manifold vacuum not engine compression. I'd guess from your description there may be a partial air leak somewhere causing a delay in the servo building up enough vacuum for the power assistance to become effective.
HTH
Start the engine and apply steady pressure to the brake pedal. If it slowly sinks to the floor the master cylinder is knackered or you have a fluid leak.
Pump the pedal with the engine running. If there is a lot of travel and the pedal feels soft and spongy you may have air in the brake fluid.
Pump the pedal several times with the engine off to dissapate the residual vacuum in the servo. Rest your foot on the brake pedal with gentle pressure and start the engine. You should feel the pedal sink a few mm as the servo builds up vacuum then become firm again. If there is no movement it suggests the servo is not seeing manifold vacuum.
Swich off the engine and remove the vacuum pipe from the servo. It should come off with some difficulty and a hiss of air.
IMO it's unlikley to ba a Nikasil problem as the servo works by manifold vacuum not engine compression. I'd guess from your description there may be a partial air leak somewhere causing a delay in the servo building up enough vacuum for the power assistance to become effective.
HTH
I had the very same problem a few years ago with a Saab. My car did the exact same as you describe, initially in the morning there was no brake pressure. I had all the same checks done as you describe and had the same response from the dealer until i asked for their foreman to come out and collect the car himself and as you describe he soon found the problem.
I virtually guarantee you need a new servo unit
Now what steve has reccomended above was done with my car and it didn't show a problem.Why? well the problem was internal with the servo losing pressure whilst sitting over night and the first couple of times you press the pedal there is no pressure but after this the pressure builds back up and the car performs ok the rest of the day.
As for anyone saying you need a new engine is absolutely bang out of order, the nikasil affects engine compression and subsequently brings a starting problem.
I would recommend you find a good Jaguar specialist (via JEC?) and get a new servo unit.
I virtually guarantee you need a new servo unit
Now what steve has reccomended above was done with my car and it didn't show a problem.Why? well the problem was internal with the servo losing pressure whilst sitting over night and the first couple of times you press the pedal there is no pressure but after this the pressure builds back up and the car performs ok the rest of the day.
As for anyone saying you need a new engine is absolutely bang out of order, the nikasil affects engine compression and subsequently brings a starting problem.
I would recommend you find a good Jaguar specialist (via JEC?) and get a new servo unit.
bigdavy said:
I had the very same problem a few years ago with a Saab. My car did the exact same as you describe, initially in the morning there was no brake pressure. I had all the same checks done as you describe and had the same response from the dealer until i asked for their foreman to come out and collect the car himself and as you describe he soon found the problem.
I virtually guarantee you need a new servo unit
Now what steve has reccomended above was done with my car and it didn't show a problem.Why? well the problem was internal with the servo losing pressure whilst sitting over night and the first couple of times you press the pedal there is no pressure but after this the pressure builds back up and the car performs ok the rest of the day.
As for anyone saying you need a new engine is absolutely bang out of order, the nikasil affects engine compression and subsequently brings a starting problem.
I would recommend you find a good Jaguar specialist (via JEC?) and get a new servo unit.
Off thread for a 'mo, any news on the fI virtually guarantee you need a new servo unit
Now what steve has reccomended above was done with my car and it didn't show a problem.Why? well the problem was internal with the servo losing pressure whilst sitting over night and the first couple of times you press the pedal there is no pressure but after this the pressure builds back up and the car performs ok the rest of the day.
As for anyone saying you need a new engine is absolutely bang out of order, the nikasil affects engine compression and subsequently brings a starting problem.
I would recommend you find a good Jaguar specialist (via JEC?) and get a new servo unit.
kers who wrecked your XJ? Quick update.
The car has now been back to the main dealer for over a week.
They've tested the car everyday and can't find any problem with the brakes.
Got a call this morning to pick the car up as it was fixed. huh????
Picked it up 5 minutes ago and guess what!!!! Started the car up and yes...the brake problem is still there. Feels like I'm pressing on a sponge.
To say i'm p***** off would be an understatement. Asked them to bring the service manager out so I could "discuss" it with him. He's busy for 30 minutes. OK...so tell him to call me.
I'm now waiting for his call. I have'nt named the garage yet as I've been a loyal customer for 10 years now. but my patience is wearing thin.
I'm thinking of selling the stbox and getting a BMW 5 series instead.
The car has now been back to the main dealer for over a week.
They've tested the car everyday and can't find any problem with the brakes.
Got a call this morning to pick the car up as it was fixed. huh????
Picked it up 5 minutes ago and guess what!!!! Started the car up and yes...the brake problem is still there. Feels like I'm pressing on a sponge.
To say i'm p***** off would be an understatement. Asked them to bring the service manager out so I could "discuss" it with him. He's busy for 30 minutes. OK...so tell him to call me.
I'm now waiting for his call. I have'nt named the garage yet as I've been a loyal customer for 10 years now. but my patience is wearing thin.
I'm thinking of selling the s
tbox and getting a BMW 5 series instead.Jaguar steve said:
Surely it can't be that difficult to diagnose - it might be time to try another dealer rather than another car
Or how about going to a good independent instead?
Wheareabouts are you?
I've been to two main dealers in essex and one well known specialists look at it.Or how about going to a good independent instead?
Wheareabouts are you?
The dealers could'nt find the problem with the brakes and the independent identified it as a nikasil problem due to the low flick up pressure.
So far I've spent around £1,500 and have not got anywhere.
I'm totally fed up with it now. All I want is to have it fixed. I can't bring myself to sell it privatley as i don't want anyone else to go through teh same problem. I'd love to shove it down Stratstones throat in a part exchange, but I'll never buy a Jaguar again even though I love the XJ's!!!!
Does'nt leave me with many choices.
PS. I'm in East London/Essex
Edited by Angelis on Thursday 17th April 09:50
Jaguar steve said:
Have you tried Wyn Thomas in Epping? 01992 578555. His guys are pretty good.
Mind you if you've already spent £1500 and not got it fixed I can see why you're pissed off with it
No, have'nt tried them yet.Mind you if you've already spent £1500 and not got it fixed I can see why you're pissed off with it
I'll be calling the main dealer on monday morning. The service manager still has'nt bothered to contact me.
fk me, not making much effort for your £1500 are they?
Just re-read your OP: Does the pedal travel a lot further, maybe even down to the floor, when you have the problem, and then have normal travel when the problem fixes itself?
Just wondering if you have a problem with leak past on the master cylinder internal seals AND a problem with a delay in building up servo vacuum. Possibily you are defeating the internal seals, causing the pedal to travel and go mushy, by having to use excessive pressure on the pedal until the vacuum has built up, then once it has you can use normal pressure on the pedal, and the seals in the master cylinder - although knackered - start working properly.
Has the car got a FSH? Has the brake fluid been changed every two years? If not there's a chance there may be problems within the master cylinder caused by wear or internal corrosion (brake fluid is hydroscopic - old fluid is A Bad Thing).
k me, not making much effort for your £1500 are they?Just re-read your OP: Does the pedal travel a lot further, maybe even down to the floor, when you have the problem, and then have normal travel when the problem fixes itself?
Just wondering if you have a problem with leak past on the master cylinder internal seals AND a problem with a delay in building up servo vacuum. Possibily you are defeating the internal seals, causing the pedal to travel and go mushy, by having to use excessive pressure on the pedal until the vacuum has built up, then once it has you can use normal pressure on the pedal, and the seals in the master cylinder - although knackered - start working properly.Has the car got a FSH? Has the brake fluid been changed every two years? If not there's a chance there may be problems within the master cylinder caused by wear or internal corrosion (brake fluid is hydroscopic - old fluid is A Bad Thing).
Jaguar steve said:
fk me, not making much effort for your £1500 are they?
Just re-read your OP: Does the pedal travel a lot further, maybe even down to the floor, when you have the problem, and then have normal travel when the problem fixes itself?
Just wondering if you have a problem with leak past on the master cylinder internal seals AND a problem with a delay in building up servo vacuum. Possibily you are defeating the internal seals, causing the pedal to travel and go mushy, by having to use excessive pressure on the pedal until the vacuum has built up, then once it has you can use normal pressure on the pedal, and the seals in the master cylinder - although knackered - start working properly.
Has the car got a FSH? Has the brake fluid been changed every two years? If not there's a chance there may be problems within the master cylinder caused by wear or internal corrosion (brake fluid is hydroscopic - old fluid is A Bad Thing).
The pedal does'nt go down to the floor, but more than it should do and feels very mushy. Like there's no power in the brakes. Only occuring after its left for a day. so you prognosis seems quite relevant nd it's a lot more info i've had from the two main dealers.k me, not making much effort for your £1500 are they?Just re-read your OP: Does the pedal travel a lot further, maybe even down to the floor, when you have the problem, and then have normal travel when the problem fixes itself?
Just wondering if you have a problem with leak past on the master cylinder internal seals AND a problem with a delay in building up servo vacuum. Possibily you are defeating the internal seals, causing the pedal to travel and go mushy, by having to use excessive pressure on the pedal until the vacuum has built up, then once it has you can use normal pressure on the pedal, and the seals in the master cylinder - although knackered - start working properly.Has the car got a FSH? Has the brake fluid been changed every two years? If not there's a chance there may be problems within the master cylinder caused by wear or internal corrosion (brake fluid is hydroscopic - old fluid is A Bad Thing).
Thanks for your help steve. Will update you on monday.
the car has a full min dealer service history and has only got 32,000 on the clock in 10 years.
Hi,
We have an 2000 series XJR with a brake similar problem.
Having changed the pads to RedStuff, brake flexible hoses to Goodridge steel braided ones and bleed the system twice with DOT5 fluid we were tearing our hair out.
Our investigations now point to either the Master cylinder/Servo unit or (and more likely) the ABS pump unit.
We will start with the former as the cheaper option and then the ABS pump.
Our XJ Sport has a similar braking system yet stops brilliantly.
We have an 2000 series XJR with a brake similar problem.
Having changed the pads to RedStuff, brake flexible hoses to Goodridge steel braided ones and bleed the system twice with DOT5 fluid we were tearing our hair out.
Our investigations now point to either the Master cylinder/Servo unit or (and more likely) the ABS pump unit.
We will start with the former as the cheaper option and then the ABS pump.
Our XJ Sport has a similar braking system yet stops brilliantly.
Gassing Station | Jaguar | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff