FRONT BRAKE FLEXIBLE PIPES
Discussion
I felt pretty sure my car still had the original flexible brake pipes (it is an 88 car) so I thought I'd check them out. I took off both the long pipes from chassis to hub (hmmm.....getting those nuts undone was fun!) and checked them. Outwardly they looked fine but a more experienced man that me suggested I checked if they had lost their strength and now had any 'give' in them. When we tested them under pressure I was horrified to find that they stretched considerably! We measured 10+ mm stretch! That is pretty serious on a c355mm pipe and would surely effect braking performance. I have heard tales of problems with old pipes but never experienced it before. Anybody else conscious of the same?
So it will be new pipes all round!
These aren't listed in the Alternative Parts list so, apart from the option of braided hoses, it is back to the parts catalogues to try to find one that is a suitable alternative. Before I do so, and possibly 'reinvent the wheel', has anybody else sourced this part?
So it will be new pipes all round!
These aren't listed in the Alternative Parts list so, apart from the option of braided hoses, it is back to the parts catalogues to try to find one that is a suitable alternative. Before I do so, and possibly 'reinvent the wheel', has anybody else sourced this part?
I spoke to a guy at http://www.brakeparts.co.uk a little while ago, and he said they could source all hoses if you take them off and measure them. There's one or two considerations, length of thread etc and if any of the threads are different, but he was really helpful and the pipes were quite cheap (A fiver or so each).
To be honest its easier if you speak to him rather than me trying to explain on here.
He did said they could source pretty much anything.
All the ford unions he said are M10x1.0 thread, but I know some have reported some strange components fitted which are not metric thread.
You could always go for a braided hose set though I doubt that would be straightforward!
Chris
To be honest its easier if you speak to him rather than me trying to explain on here.
He did said they could source pretty much anything.
All the ford unions he said are M10x1.0 thread, but I know some have reported some strange components fitted which are not metric thread.
You could always go for a braided hose set though I doubt that would be straightforward!
Chris
Thanks Chris, I will try them. The measurements present a small problem; is the pipe now the same length as it should be! As there is an issue of clearance to the wheel and of travel to allow full suspension movement, I'd like to be sure. I THINK it is supposed to be a 355mm pipe (measured between the flanges at the ends rather than overall length). Wire armoured. The threads at each end are 10mm, male, approx 22mm long with male end cone fitting.
If that is correct then the only one in the reference book that matches is Reliant Scimitar! Surprise, surprise they are 'discontinued'. Very close in spec are LDV Sherpa front (again obsolete), XJ6 (86-94 and still available), 2 ltr Honda Accord and a Ford Ka! We are going to 'borrow' them to see!
If that is correct then the only one in the reference book that matches is Reliant Scimitar! Surprise, surprise they are 'discontinued'. Very close in spec are LDV Sherpa front (again obsolete), XJ6 (86-94 and still available), 2 ltr Honda Accord and a Ford Ka! We are going to 'borrow' them to see!
I got the impression when I spoke to them that they manufactured pipes to order - I maybe wrong but he said just measure between the flanges as you said and he said they would be able to sort them out.
Consideration needs to be given to the thread length and what it mates with aswell I think.
I can't make my mind up whether to go for rubber replacements or the braided type.
Long term my nagging doubt with braided is that you can't see what state the rubber hose is in (I think they are teflon or something but whatever they can't last forever).
My rubber pipes are in pretty good nick - and all off the car. If you need me to measure anything let me know, though I have rear discs so presume that won't help you.
Consideration needs to be given to the thread length and what it mates with aswell I think.
I can't make my mind up whether to go for rubber replacements or the braided type.
Long term my nagging doubt with braided is that you can't see what state the rubber hose is in (I think they are teflon or something but whatever they can't last forever).
My rubber pipes are in pretty good nick - and all off the car. If you need me to measure anything let me know, though I have rear discs so presume that won't help you.
Hi Chris, I appreciate that offer. Do you think you could measure the front pipes for me? I actually found it quite difficult and had to hold one end in the vice to pull it straight and needed a third hand to hold the tape! I would be very interested to see if the dimensions match. As you say the rear pipes will be different but from what I can see so far the long front flexible is by far the most crucial as far as dimensional accuracy is concerned if it is to avoid the front wheel on the extremes of lock and suspension travel.
I've had some experience of braided hoses on rally cars and, because they do not flex in quite the same way as 'rubber' hoses, we often had to route them differently. On the rally car they didn't last long enough for ageing to be an issue! I would prefer not to convert these long hoses to braided unless someone came in who already had satisfactory experience of doing so.
I've had some experience of braided hoses on rally cars and, because they do not flex in quite the same way as 'rubber' hoses, we often had to route them differently. On the rally car they didn't last long enough for ageing to be an issue! I would prefer not to convert these long hoses to braided unless someone came in who already had satisfactory experience of doing so.
if yours are the same as my s2 the rears are 3/8 unf and are from a sunbeam avenger 09/73 to 10/82 lucas/trw part no phc138 and the fronts are 10mm mine are 370 mm long in total and are from a ldv pilot 04/89 to 03/96 lucas/trw part no pha 313 hope this helps ken
Richard check out the above these are what i used
Richard check out the above these are what i used
Hi Ken, thanks for that info. Frustratingly I have borrowed and brought home the Lockheed/Delphi catalogue rather than the TRW/Lucas one so I cannot yet check out that number. If your pipe is 370 between flanges (about 415mm overall) then that is about 15mm longer than mine are at the moment! Be interested to see what size Chris comes back with.
If 370mm is correct, both ends M10 23mm long, then that relates to Lockheed part number LH5656 for the 200 Series LDV Pilot 89-96 2.0 Diesel only. (These have live axles and the pipe is listed as one only per vehicle, 'front to rear split'). Surprise, surprise again, low stocks, not to be re-manufactured when stock is exhausted!
There is also a LH5779, 357mm long (very close to the measurement I got), both ends M10 23mm long. That is listed for LDV Sherpa 255 from 82-89, again axle to body. These are listed as available at the moment, but at a cost! £16.17 + each!
Been talking to a restorer today who said that if the ends are available he could easily make up braided hoses and that he would see no problem fitting a braided hose of the same length as a direct replacement in this application. I'm now undecided!
If 370mm is correct, both ends M10 23mm long, then that relates to Lockheed part number LH5656 for the 200 Series LDV Pilot 89-96 2.0 Diesel only. (These have live axles and the pipe is listed as one only per vehicle, 'front to rear split'). Surprise, surprise again, low stocks, not to be re-manufactured when stock is exhausted!
There is also a LH5779, 357mm long (very close to the measurement I got), both ends M10 23mm long. That is listed for LDV Sherpa 255 from 82-89, again axle to body. These are listed as available at the moment, but at a cost! £16.17 + each!
Been talking to a restorer today who said that if the ends are available he could easily make up braided hoses and that he would see no problem fitting a braided hose of the same length as a direct replacement in this application. I'm now undecided!
greymrj said:
Thanks Chris, I will try them. The measurements present a small problem; is the pipe now the same length as it should be! As there is an issue of clearance to the wheel and of travel to allow full suspension movement, I'd like to be sure. I THINK it is supposed to be a 355mm pipe (measured between the flanges at the ends rather than overall length). Wire armoured. The threads at each end are 10mm, male, approx 22mm long with male end cone fitting.
Mine are 330mm to the flanges at each end. Hope this helps. Chris
Come on guys, anybody else out there who can check the length of these pipes on their car (accurately) so we can establish exactly how long they should be. Now I am 'on' it I'd like to record the info for others, and possibly even establish a source of parts. (I have, incidentally, been talking to a guy who had a 2ltr Triumph, changing the brake hoses on that apparently made a remarkable difference to brake 'feel' and effectiveness)
Hi Tony, thanks a lot for that, one of the numbers is indeed a part number. I am seeing the factor later in the week and I can look that up. We now seem to have several in the 350-355mm range, can anybody add to the statistics! If yours are original you may also wish to check and see if there is any stretch in them.
Yes Norman, I agree, if the long pipe is knackered then it is reasonable to assume the short one is too. So I've taken one off and taken the dimensions ( and yes, it does stretch quite alarmingly!). Fortunately the dimensions seem to match Lockheed LH3255 which is Granada/Scorpio/Sierra which are readily available. Makes sense as they are Sierra calipers. I will however 'borrow' one and double check.
Yes Norman, I agree, if the long pipe is knackered then it is reasonable to assume the short one is too. So I've taken one off and taken the dimensions ( and yes, it does stretch quite alarmingly!). Fortunately the dimensions seem to match Lockheed LH3255 which is Granada/Scorpio/Sierra which are readily available. Makes sense as they are Sierra calipers. I will however 'borrow' one and double check.
Just to confirm, front lower flexible brake pipe (into caliper) is indeed Lockheed/Delphi LH3255 or TRW/Lucas PHC205 and is readily available.
Will be added to parts list.
Still checking an option for the longer hose. There is a 370mm long wire armoured pipe available and with the same end fittings. (370 matches in length at least those on the kenpage car, and on jimed's car they measured 365). We are going to get one and check clearances on my car.
Will be added to parts list.
Still checking an option for the longer hose. There is a 370mm long wire armoured pipe available and with the same end fittings. (370 matches in length at least those on the kenpage car, and on jimed's car they measured 365). We are going to get one and check clearances on my car.
I can add a bit more info for reference. I am pretty sure that the optimum pipe length, between flanges, is approx 360mm. I am now pretty sure that the original pipe was Lockheed LH5779 which is 357mm, armoured, with both ends M10, 23mm long, male taper. This pipe also appears to have been fitted to the Reliant Scimitar! It is however listed as no longer available, although a factor might have old stock.
I did find two close matches;
TRW PHA313 (which kenpage used), which is listed as 365mm between centres (sorry, I do not have the lockheed number). This was a Leyland Daf part but there do still appear to be some residual stocks.
TRW/Lucas PHC119, Lockheed/Delphi LH5208, Firstline FBH6572, these are listed as 370mm. Listed for 70's Consul/Cortina but apparently still available and apparently a popular option for kit car builders.
I did note that the TRW parts are considerably cheaper than Lockheed equivalents.
There are a couple of other very similar hoses available but they are not wire armoured and it is very important to use a wire armoured hose for this application.
I fitted the PHC119 (my factor happened to have 2 on the shelf!). I did some checks on clearance at the extremes of steering and suspension travel and it appeared OK but I did notice that if I changed the angle of the mounting bracket at the chassis end slightly the line and clearance of the pipe was much improved. See pic
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/greymrj/1...
(once again, if anybody wants to insert that in the text for me I would be grateful! Still haven't got that far!)
If you want pipes, and dont have a helpful factor nearby, my factor will mail them to you and has recently helped several S owners in this way.
I did find two close matches;
TRW PHA313 (which kenpage used), which is listed as 365mm between centres (sorry, I do not have the lockheed number). This was a Leyland Daf part but there do still appear to be some residual stocks.
TRW/Lucas PHC119, Lockheed/Delphi LH5208, Firstline FBH6572, these are listed as 370mm. Listed for 70's Consul/Cortina but apparently still available and apparently a popular option for kit car builders.
I did note that the TRW parts are considerably cheaper than Lockheed equivalents.
There are a couple of other very similar hoses available but they are not wire armoured and it is very important to use a wire armoured hose for this application.
I fitted the PHC119 (my factor happened to have 2 on the shelf!). I did some checks on clearance at the extremes of steering and suspension travel and it appeared OK but I did notice that if I changed the angle of the mounting bracket at the chassis end slightly the line and clearance of the pipe was much improved. See pic
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa102/greymrj/1...
(once again, if anybody wants to insert that in the text for me I would be grateful! Still haven't got that far!)
If you want pipes, and dont have a helpful factor nearby, my factor will mail them to you and has recently helped several S owners in this way.
Hi Chris, Norman sent it to me. It is indeed interesting. I'd like to know if there are any significant differences between S1-S3 brake systems at the front? It also appears that this schedule is specifying brake pipes by overall length (as TRW now do) rather than flange to flange length which is how Lucas and Lockheed did it. For example the schedule quotes the long front flexibles as 0.4m. I know that the ends are each 23mm long which would give 354mm flange to flange, which is pretty much what I deduced. Certainly worth adding the info (via the forum first?). Thank goodness it supports rather than contradicts findings so far! Phew!
It does show ALL pipes as metric couplings. I have yet to take off all the back pipes but so far all I have found are metric but I do seem to recall someone saying they found some were not metric thread. I am NOT taking any more pipes off this time just to find out!
(Got the crank back today, all shiny, just waiting for the shells to arrive now.....not cheap!)
It does show ALL pipes as metric couplings. I have yet to take off all the back pipes but so far all I have found are metric but I do seem to recall someone saying they found some were not metric thread. I am NOT taking any more pipes off this time just to find out!
(Got the crank back today, all shiny, just waiting for the shells to arrive now.....not cheap!)
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