Cam timing tools....
Discussion
Can anyone who has made a piston dead stop tool, used to find TDC, post a few pics please (the ones normally made from a spark plug)? I am looking at a billet aluminium one made by APE in the USA http://www.aperaceparts.com/tools.html which seems good value. However, looking at my pics of the heads I am slightly concerned about putting extended objects into the spark plug hole, as the AJP has large valves with high lift and I really don't want the tool to accidentally bend a valve by accident (the spark plug hole makes a fairly shallow angle into the head, straight into the path of the valves).
Also, has anyone made a cam sprocket holding tool?
I am considering placing a degree wheel permanently onto the aircon pulley and making a reference pointer mounted on the timing cover. This could be used to quickly find TDC on no. 1 cylinder.
Also, has anyone made a cam sprocket holding tool?
I am considering placing a degree wheel permanently onto the aircon pulley and making a reference pointer mounted on the timing cover. This could be used to quickly find TDC on no. 1 cylinder.
Here you go, it's my interpretation anyway. 
I used a standard plug, broke off the insulation and electrode, ran a drill down the centre and Araldited in a piece of 10 mm bar, finally radiused the end so it didn't dig into the piston crown.
You could mess about for ages getting optimum length, but this seemed to work okay, just mark the two points on the crankshaft pulley, find the midpoint using a piece of paper and hey-presto.
I did fix a pointer onto the car, using the washer bottle reservoir, if memory serves me correctly.
Anyway, here's a couple of pics. Some more here.
I did make a cam holding tool too, but it's burried in the garage, it was a piece of tube same i.d. (or nearly) as the cam sprocket, I riveted a piece of flat to the tube and bolted it to the face of the head. <-- Does that make sense?
HTH
Tim
I used a standard plug, broke off the insulation and electrode, ran a drill down the centre and Araldited in a piece of 10 mm bar, finally radiused the end so it didn't dig into the piston crown.
You could mess about for ages getting optimum length, but this seemed to work okay, just mark the two points on the crankshaft pulley, find the midpoint using a piece of paper and hey-presto.
I did fix a pointer onto the car, using the washer bottle reservoir, if memory serves me correctly.
Anyway, here's a couple of pics. Some more here.
I did make a cam holding tool too, but it's burried in the garage, it was a piece of tube same i.d. (or nearly) as the cam sprocket, I riveted a piece of flat to the tube and bolted it to the face of the head. <-- Does that make sense?
HTH
Tim
Edited by TT Tim on Saturday 29th March 19:25
Tis my effort at cam timing
the deadstop was made from solid bar, however the thread was modified to allow a slightly sloppy fit. The advantage was that as you slowly move the crankshaft the tip of the deadstop would twitch in your fingers.
When I did the original it was a tight fit and very difficult to know whether the piston had hit the deadstop or not.
The cam turning tool is from a 9" angle grinder.
The digital calipers have been modified with a smal tang at the bottom to rest on one top hat and then poke down to touch the other. I found this much easier than trying to use two DTI's.
The cam holder (not shown) was a smakk piece of solid bar bronzed onto a 3mm flat steel plate that bolts to the cylinder head.
Edited by julian64 on Saturday 29th March 20:10
Cheers Tim. I have a few grand ideas, so we'll see how it all falls out. Any pics you've got of these improvised tools would be great though!!
Thanks Julian, the pics really help - I was just a bit concerned about the end making contact with a valve on turning the engine over, but as both of the tools shown are quite chunky, it obviously is safe. One other question for you Julian - the grinder spanner - do the pins locate into the cap head bolts?
Thanks again chaps.
Thanks Julian, the pics really help - I was just a bit concerned about the end making contact with a valve on turning the engine over, but as both of the tools shown are quite chunky, it obviously is safe. One other question for you Julian - the grinder spanner - do the pins locate into the cap head bolts?
Thanks again chaps.
Edited by longbow on Saturday 29th March 20:08
longbow said:
Cheers Tim. I have a few grand ideas, so we'll see how it all falls out. Any pics you've got of these improvised tools would be great though!!
Thanks Julian, the pics really help - I was just a bit concerned about the end making contact with a valve on turning the engine over, but as both of the tools shown are quite chunky, it obviously is safe. One other question for you Julian - the grinder spanner - do the pins locate into the cap head bolts?
Thanks again chaps.
Yep the pins are an exact match for the holes in the cap head bolts.Thanks Julian, the pics really help - I was just a bit concerned about the end making contact with a valve on turning the engine over, but as both of the tools shown are quite chunky, it obviously is safe. One other question for you Julian - the grinder spanner - do the pins locate into the cap head bolts?
Thanks again chaps.
Edited by longbow on Saturday 29th March 20:08
I currently have the cylinder heads off my car so if you like I'll screw the thing in and take a picture of what it looks like from the valve side
julian64 said:
I currently have the cylinder heads off my car so if you like I'll screw the thing in and take a picture of what it looks like from the valve side
LOL, saves me doing it. The wife just looked at me sideways when I said I need to go screw something into a spare head and photograph it!Can I please 'steal' any pics that you post Julian, trying to build a library?
Tim
did you really post that at 2:47 in the morning olly? 
Meanwhile
Sorry, not much of a macro on my camera. You can see the deadstop screwed fully into the head. You can also see a spark plug screwed into the organge coloured cylinder next to it and also the valve is fully out in that pic.
Hope that helps.
BTW I'm no where near TT's expertise with a camera. In the deadstop picture the deastop actually starts at zero, its just the camera that makes it look otherwise.
Meanwhile
Sorry, not much of a macro on my camera. You can see the deadstop screwed fully into the head. You can also see a spark plug screwed into the organge coloured cylinder next to it and also the valve is fully out in that pic.
Hope that helps.
BTW I'm no where near TT's expertise with a camera. In the deadstop picture the deastop actually starts at zero, its just the camera that makes it look otherwise.
Edited by julian64 on Sunday 30th March 11:16
Thanks for that - from the pics it looks like the exhaust valve will come quite close to the tool end, so I wasn't far off. But the one I'm going to get has a tapered end, so should be fine.
Right then, I'm a bit confused with regards to cam timing though. Once TDC has been found, should the cam (for the cylinder on overlap) be set for equal lift on overlap, or with the inlet valve 1.5mm further open??
Right then, I'm a bit confused with regards to cam timing though. Once TDC has been found, should the cam (for the cylinder on overlap) be set for equal lift on overlap, or with the inlet valve 1.5mm further open??
Olly said:
julian64 said:
did you really post that at 2:47 in the morning olly?
The joys of working nights ! 
Back slightly more on topic - I hope to g*d thats your spare engine !
Just a bit of an update on my progress with this. Last night I stripped my engine ready to check/set the tappets and also check the cam timing. My plan was to permanently attached a degree wheel onto the aircon pulley and fabricate a fixed pointer on the timing cover. By using a TDC positive stop tool, I wanted to find TDC (on bank 1 for reference) and then fix the degree wheel to read TDC at that point. After that, in theory I could do all sorts of interesting stuff.
Well, I did a few hours of hard graft last night, and well, it works!! The TDC tool I got from the States is a really classy piece of kit - billet aluminium with a long spindle and grip thread. It located perfectly in the no.1 spark plug hole. I had to cut out the centre section of the degree wheel (all bought from APE racing BTW) and fortunately for me the OD of the wheel was only a few mm bigger than the aircon pulley, so the two fitted over one another nearly perfectly. Initially I stuck it on with blue tack and then crafted a pointer - a small aluminium triangle mounted on a bolt set into one of the now reduntant aircon idler mounting holes. I set the tip of the pointer to ready exactly against the outside of the degree wheel - the resolution is easily good to the nearest degree. With the degree wheel tacked on (reading is meaningless at this point) I then turned the engine over clockwise (after removing all the spark plugs) until the piston hit the stop - then recorded the reading. I then rotated the engine anti-clockwise until again it hit the stop, and took the 2nd reading. Then I worked out the mid-point between these two readings, removed the TDC tool and set the engine to that number, i.e. TDC. I then removed the degree wheel, roughened up and cleaned the surfaces and then expoxied the degree wheel to the front of the aircon pulley. Visually checking the cam, it looked to be bang on the 'equal lift on overlap' point on the no.1 cylinder. Checked the bond this morning and it was rock solid.
I also checked TDC on bank 2 by the same method and the degree wheel read 75 degrees, which as I understand it is the V angle on the AJP. Happy days! I can now use a strobe light to check the timing etc (don't know why I would need to though lol) but importantly I have a reference for any future maintenance. Unfortunately my digital camera is elsewhere so need to wait a while for pics.
Hopefully if my digital dial gauges arrive today I can check the cam timing and get on with adjusting the shims.
So, punchline question..... although I will measure the current lift on overlap at TDC later, before I remove the cams, can someone who has set cam timing confirm 100% or otherwise that the cams needs to be set to equal lift on overlap at TDC, or is there a better setting for hp/torque? Many thanks in advance!
Well, I did a few hours of hard graft last night, and well, it works!! The TDC tool I got from the States is a really classy piece of kit - billet aluminium with a long spindle and grip thread. It located perfectly in the no.1 spark plug hole. I had to cut out the centre section of the degree wheel (all bought from APE racing BTW) and fortunately for me the OD of the wheel was only a few mm bigger than the aircon pulley, so the two fitted over one another nearly perfectly. Initially I stuck it on with blue tack and then crafted a pointer - a small aluminium triangle mounted on a bolt set into one of the now reduntant aircon idler mounting holes. I set the tip of the pointer to ready exactly against the outside of the degree wheel - the resolution is easily good to the nearest degree. With the degree wheel tacked on (reading is meaningless at this point) I then turned the engine over clockwise (after removing all the spark plugs) until the piston hit the stop - then recorded the reading. I then rotated the engine anti-clockwise until again it hit the stop, and took the 2nd reading. Then I worked out the mid-point between these two readings, removed the TDC tool and set the engine to that number, i.e. TDC. I then removed the degree wheel, roughened up and cleaned the surfaces and then expoxied the degree wheel to the front of the aircon pulley. Visually checking the cam, it looked to be bang on the 'equal lift on overlap' point on the no.1 cylinder. Checked the bond this morning and it was rock solid.
I also checked TDC on bank 2 by the same method and the degree wheel read 75 degrees, which as I understand it is the V angle on the AJP. Happy days! I can now use a strobe light to check the timing etc (don't know why I would need to though lol) but importantly I have a reference for any future maintenance. Unfortunately my digital camera is elsewhere so need to wait a while for pics.
Hopefully if my digital dial gauges arrive today I can check the cam timing and get on with adjusting the shims.
So, punchline question..... although I will measure the current lift on overlap at TDC later, before I remove the cams, can someone who has set cam timing confirm 100% or otherwise that the cams needs to be set to equal lift on overlap at TDC, or is there a better setting for hp/torque? Many thanks in advance!
Equal lift on overlap is what I use for all my engines and I haven't found anything better. People say they have secret cam timing figures that are supposedly better, but I say to them keep those secret because they're not as good as equal lift method!
Now that you have bonded your degree wheel to the crank watch for any slackness in the woodruff key etc if you ever have the pully off, that will throw your readings out, but to be fair you'd have to be over 2 degrees out to measure even tiny hp differences on an engine dyno and unless you were hell bent on getting it cock-on every time you'd have to be more than 4 degrees out on your cam timing before you'd start to worry about losing real hp. If anyone tells you that they advance or retard say 2 degrees because they've found it's better just laugh at them .. similarly if they say they advance / retard more than 4 degrees laugh again because that will be on the verge of losing hp everywhere .. you don't need to be as accurate as you think and you shouldn't need to use anything other than equal lift method ..
Now that you have bonded your degree wheel to the crank watch for any slackness in the woodruff key etc if you ever have the pully off, that will throw your readings out, but to be fair you'd have to be over 2 degrees out to measure even tiny hp differences on an engine dyno and unless you were hell bent on getting it cock-on every time you'd have to be more than 4 degrees out on your cam timing before you'd start to worry about losing real hp. If anyone tells you that they advance or retard say 2 degrees because they've found it's better just laugh at them .. similarly if they say they advance / retard more than 4 degrees laugh again because that will be on the verge of losing hp everywhere .. you don't need to be as accurate as you think and you shouldn't need to use anything other than equal lift method ..
Thanks Joolz, you're a star!! Equal lift at TDC it is then.....
BTW the digital gauges I've ordered have a 1" range so in theory I can work out the cam opening/closing points and duration etc. If I was really bored I could plot the cam lift on a graph. No use to me personally, but maybe someone in the aftermarket cam business? I see Castle Engines will soon be releasing a range of AJP cams.... might be useful for comparison purposes.
BTW the digital gauges I've ordered have a 1" range so in theory I can work out the cam opening/closing points and duration etc. If I was really bored I could plot the cam lift on a graph. No use to me personally, but maybe someone in the aftermarket cam business? I see Castle Engines will soon be releasing a range of AJP cams.... might be useful for comparison purposes.
Admittedly I'm only half way through the job, but some interesting pics have been added to the collection;
http://rides.webshots.com/album/212016964dytUsY?st...
This details cam timing and tappet adjustment. Once I get my ACT manifolds (spoke with Tim at ACT, should be delivered in a few weeks), I'll add pics relating to changing those as well. Once all is done, its MBE remap time me thinks and then that's it!
http://rides.webshots.com/album/212016964dytUsY?st...
This details cam timing and tappet adjustment. Once I get my ACT manifolds (spoke with Tim at ACT, should be delivered in a few weeks), I'll add pics relating to changing those as well. Once all is done, its MBE remap time me thinks and then that's it!
longbow said:
Admittedly I'm only half way through the job, but some interesting pics have been added to the collection;
http://rides.webshots.com/album/212016964dytUsY?st...
This details cam timing and tappet adjustment. Once I get my ACT manifolds (spoke with Tim at ACT, should be delivered in a few weeks), I'll add pics relating to changing those as well. Once all is done, its MBE remap time me thinks and then that's it!
As usual, great pics Wins http://rides.webshots.com/album/212016964dytUsY?st...
This details cam timing and tappet adjustment. Once I get my ACT manifolds (spoke with Tim at ACT, should be delivered in a few weeks), I'll add pics relating to changing those as well. Once all is done, its MBE remap time me thinks and then that's it!
and very informative. Can't wait to see the end product.Did you get your bolt sets online btw?
Gassing Station | Cerbera | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff