Are Lamborghini's the New Porsche???
Discussion
Let me explain my thinking..........
Many years ago (1989 to be precise) when I got my very first 911 - Porsche's (and Carrera's in particular) were almost revered as supercars and were certainly a rarity (up in the North East anyway) - consequently there was a certain "presence" and rarity that made them seem special. The dealers were small and invariably enthusiasts and the owners of cars were predominantly lovers of the marque.
I bought my first Lamborghini (a Diablo SV) in 1996 after lusting after Lambo's from the age of 8. The only dealer in the UK was the AFN outfit in Reading ran effectivley by Jason Barker - only a handful of cars were sold each year - and the team there knew virtually every owner on a first name basis. The cars themselves were "otherworldly" and I'm afraid my car may have caused some inadvertent accidents such was it's ability to stop traffic in it's tracks.
fast Forward to 2008.
Now in the intervening period - Porsche have massivley increased their production - dealers have become "corporate" and seem to care more about sales volumes than any relationship with customers - and Porsches are on every street corner - ergo no one gives them a second glance.
In the same time frame - Lamborghini have been "Audified" - there are many more dealers and due to the introduction of the very sucessful Murcielago and the incredibly proliferate Gallardo - the public are becoming much more used to seeing them on the roads - they are still special but not really special.
So Porsche have moved into the volume sector - and lost their "specialness" - to a degree, because of that - and in turn have Lamborghini now effectivley occupied the space once enjoyed by Porsche in the 80's and 90's??
In turn are brands like Pagani, and Koenigsegg the new Lamborghini??
Many years ago (1989 to be precise) when I got my very first 911 - Porsche's (and Carrera's in particular) were almost revered as supercars and were certainly a rarity (up in the North East anyway) - consequently there was a certain "presence" and rarity that made them seem special. The dealers were small and invariably enthusiasts and the owners of cars were predominantly lovers of the marque.
I bought my first Lamborghini (a Diablo SV) in 1996 after lusting after Lambo's from the age of 8. The only dealer in the UK was the AFN outfit in Reading ran effectivley by Jason Barker - only a handful of cars were sold each year - and the team there knew virtually every owner on a first name basis. The cars themselves were "otherworldly" and I'm afraid my car may have caused some inadvertent accidents such was it's ability to stop traffic in it's tracks.
fast Forward to 2008.
Now in the intervening period - Porsche have massivley increased their production - dealers have become "corporate" and seem to care more about sales volumes than any relationship with customers - and Porsches are on every street corner - ergo no one gives them a second glance.
In the same time frame - Lamborghini have been "Audified" - there are many more dealers and due to the introduction of the very sucessful Murcielago and the incredibly proliferate Gallardo - the public are becoming much more used to seeing them on the roads - they are still special but not really special.
So Porsche have moved into the volume sector - and lost their "specialness" - to a degree, because of that - and in turn have Lamborghini now effectivley occupied the space once enjoyed by Porsche in the 80's and 90's??
In turn are brands like Pagani, and Koenigsegg the new Lamborghini??
Without wanting to be nasty.... Tales of poor reliability, icons for the poster generation, and very rare on the roads?
Quite possibly, but no bad thing I'd say. The ability for more and more people to achieve their childhood dreams doesn't sit badly in my book.
Roll on the next decade, and what-ever that may bring (when an 'egg is in my price bracket!)
Quite possibly, but no bad thing I'd say. The ability for more and more people to achieve their childhood dreams doesn't sit badly in my book.
Roll on the next decade, and what-ever that may bring (when an 'egg is in my price bracket!)
dealmaker said:
Let me explain my thinking..........
Many years ago (1989 to be precise) when I got my very first 911 - Porsche's (and Carrera's in particular) were almost revered as supercars and were certainly a rarity (up in the North East anyway) - consequently there was a certain "presence" and rarity that made them seem special. The dealers were small and invariably enthusiasts and the owners of cars were predominantly lovers of the marque.
I bought my first Lamborghini (a Diablo SV) in 1996 after lusting after Lambo's from the age of 8. The only dealer in the UK was the AFN outfit in Reading ran effectivley by Jason Barker - only a handful of cars were sold each year - and the team there knew virtually every owner on a first name basis. The cars themselves were "otherworldly" and I'm afraid my car may have caused some inadvertent accidents such was it's ability to stop traffic in it's tracks.
fast Forward to 2008.
Now in the intervening period - Porsche have massivley increased their production - dealers have become "corporate" and seem to care more about sales volumes than any relationship with customers - and Porsches are on every street corner - ergo no one gives them a second glance.
In the same time frame - Lamborghini have been "Audified" - there are many more dealers and due to the introduction of the very sucessful Murcielago and the incredibly proliferate Gallardo - the public are becoming much more used to seeing them on the roads - they are still special but not really special.
So Porsche have moved into the volume sector - and lost their "specialness" - to a degree, because of that - and in turn have Lamborghini now effectivley occupied the space once enjoyed by Porsche in the 80's and 90's??
In turn are brands like Pagani, and Koenigsegg the new Lamborghini??
I agree with the Porsche comments and partially with the Lambo remarks. I must see at least 10 Porkers per day, no less. I have only seen 1 Gallardo since I bought mine last July and 0 of any other types of Lambo's. I would still nearly jump out of my seat at the sight of a Lambo but not a porker unless it was a CGT. As for many more Lambo dealers as far as i know there are only 4 in the uk, but I may be wrong. Many years ago (1989 to be precise) when I got my very first 911 - Porsche's (and Carrera's in particular) were almost revered as supercars and were certainly a rarity (up in the North East anyway) - consequently there was a certain "presence" and rarity that made them seem special. The dealers were small and invariably enthusiasts and the owners of cars were predominantly lovers of the marque.
I bought my first Lamborghini (a Diablo SV) in 1996 after lusting after Lambo's from the age of 8. The only dealer in the UK was the AFN outfit in Reading ran effectivley by Jason Barker - only a handful of cars were sold each year - and the team there knew virtually every owner on a first name basis. The cars themselves were "otherworldly" and I'm afraid my car may have caused some inadvertent accidents such was it's ability to stop traffic in it's tracks.
fast Forward to 2008.
Now in the intervening period - Porsche have massivley increased their production - dealers have become "corporate" and seem to care more about sales volumes than any relationship with customers - and Porsches are on every street corner - ergo no one gives them a second glance.
In the same time frame - Lamborghini have been "Audified" - there are many more dealers and due to the introduction of the very sucessful Murcielago and the incredibly proliferate Gallardo - the public are becoming much more used to seeing them on the roads - they are still special but not really special.
So Porsche have moved into the volume sector - and lost their "specialness" - to a degree, because of that - and in turn have Lamborghini now effectivley occupied the space once enjoyed by Porsche in the 80's and 90's??
In turn are brands like Pagani, and Koenigsegg the new Lamborghini??
Fast forward 5 to 10 years and I think you will be spot on. As a Lamborghini owner my heart tells me this is very sad while my head knows that it has to be this way for the company to even exist.
Can't help but look back to the old days ( bought mine in '98 also from Jason Barker )with fond memories. It was more like an outrageous club in those days, the car and ownership was very special. I cannot say it feels the same anymore, somehow watered down.
I feel fortunate to have owned mine at a time when you could enjoy it on the road, without feeling nervous that everytime you changed into third gear either the local speed enforcers or greenpeace wanted to hang you from the nearest tree.
Can't help but look back to the old days ( bought mine in '98 also from Jason Barker )with fond memories. It was more like an outrageous club in those days, the car and ownership was very special. I cannot say it feels the same anymore, somehow watered down.
I feel fortunate to have owned mine at a time when you could enjoy it on the road, without feeling nervous that everytime you changed into third gear either the local speed enforcers or greenpeace wanted to hang you from the nearest tree.
I have sympathy with your anxiety.
However Piech has been the Chairman of the Supervisory Board at Porsche for years.
He's also been the in the same position at VW Group (Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti amongst) for some time.
So he's the guy who currently 'allows' the Audi R8 to compete against the 997 to compete against the Gallardo ...
As in the fine arts, any niche product if it is to survive has to be commercial (otherwise it dies). Porsche and Lamborghini could have died. But we do loose a certain ‘colour’.
And once they survive and mature, you're saying it becomes less interesting. Perhaps things have moved on that as a manufacturer, you cannot maintain a company on a little turnover unless you're part of much bigger concerns, to take care of world type approval issues etc. History would indicate I think this is no bad thing, albeit costing us Marcos, TVR etc. but not quite Lotus. We do need this additional colour, don't we?
(PS I was Jason Barker's predecessor when Porsche GB bought Lamborghini import from Portman. Was particularly proud of the SV and Jota … !)
However Piech has been the Chairman of the Supervisory Board at Porsche for years.
He's also been the in the same position at VW Group (Audi, Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti amongst) for some time.
So he's the guy who currently 'allows' the Audi R8 to compete against the 997 to compete against the Gallardo ...
As in the fine arts, any niche product if it is to survive has to be commercial (otherwise it dies). Porsche and Lamborghini could have died. But we do loose a certain ‘colour’.
And once they survive and mature, you're saying it becomes less interesting. Perhaps things have moved on that as a manufacturer, you cannot maintain a company on a little turnover unless you're part of much bigger concerns, to take care of world type approval issues etc. History would indicate I think this is no bad thing, albeit costing us Marcos, TVR etc. but not quite Lotus. We do need this additional colour, don't we?
(PS I was Jason Barker's predecessor when Porsche GB bought Lamborghini import from Portman. Was particularly proud of the SV and Jota … !)
I think there like Porsche of the 80's when they had the elite models like 959 that everyone desired and also had the 911 where more and more people were getting in to them. Before this lambo was a very elite very lusted after brand. Now its lost some of that, there still beutifull machines just easier to achive. Maybe there's more money about? Maybe its because lambo are no longer top of the tree with there most expensive( regular) model? After all people move up from lp's to gt's slr's enzo's etc etc. There wasn't much above the diablo or countach...
Completely agree about Porsche - They've lost the wow factor (CGT excepted), a fact I first realised when I noticed there were about 10 parked in my humble street I do wonder whether it was the advent of the Cayenne that did it though, or whether I'm just a bit slow and only noticed it relatively recently?
I'm not sure that the 'new Porsche' applies to only lambos to be honest. I'm going to get a shoeing here, but I think what Tbops is saying is right - there's just more exotica around now (Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati), especially if you live in London. There's no doubting they're still amazing cars, but they lose a little something if you see them fairly often.
This is why I think something like a Countach, Miura, Ferrari Dino is starting to appeal more to me than the manufacturers latest model. It's not just a single brand / money thing I think. for example, I find the Enzo much more exciting than the Veyron. A combination of exclusivity and taste? (yet to see a CCX or SLR Roadster in the metal - but there's two I'd put up there for starters
I do wonder whether it was the advent of the Cayenne that did it though, or whether I'm just a bit slow and only noticed it relatively recently?I'm not sure that the 'new Porsche' applies to only lambos to be honest. I'm going to get a shoeing here, but I think what Tbops is saying is right - there's just more exotica around now (Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, Maserati), especially if you live in London. There's no doubting they're still amazing cars, but they lose a little something if you see them fairly often.
This is why I think something like a Countach, Miura, Ferrari Dino is starting to appeal more to me than the manufacturers latest model. It's not just a single brand / money thing I think. for example, I find the Enzo much more exciting than the Veyron. A combination of exclusivity and taste? (yet to see a CCX or SLR Roadster in the metal - but there's two I'd put up there for starters
This is *very* true of Porsches, which are a "regular" car these days. I don't even notice them any more.
Also becoming true of (sadly) Ferrari (360/430 especially), Lambo and Lotus. All of these used to be rare.
The good side of it is that normal people can own them now. The bad side is they are no longer so special.
Also becoming true of (sadly) Ferrari (360/430 especially), Lambo and Lotus. All of these used to be rare.
The good side of it is that normal people can own them now. The bad side is they are no longer so special.
Edited by LotusJas on Thursday 3rd April 12:00
Whilst I can see the OP's point, surely this should be more accurately applied to those people from Maranello?
In 2007, Ferrari built 6,548 cars whereas Lamborghini were hugely profitable (by anyone's standards!) having built a record (for them) amount of 2,406 cars.
When it comes to Porsche-like over-familiarity, I'd say that there will hopefully / certainly NEVER be as many Lamborghinis around, or Ferraris, come to that. Indeed, Lamborghinis first quarter '08 sales were 639 - digital-dust compared to Porsche sales numbers I'd guess?
As far as can be seen, (based on a very recent Reuters press announcement), Automobili Lamborghini SpA's president Stephan Winkelmann is projecting a sales increase of 5% this year and has said that ALL the cars for 2008 production are already sold...
(apart from the 'extra' Reventón that they are building for me, for free, so there
)
and LotusJas - modern Lamborghinis are every bit as special as the older cars - still the same bullishness, still the same intensity of driver experience - usually just with better switchgear!!
In 2007, Ferrari built 6,548 cars whereas Lamborghini were hugely profitable (by anyone's standards!) having built a record (for them) amount of 2,406 cars.
When it comes to Porsche-like over-familiarity, I'd say that there will hopefully / certainly NEVER be as many Lamborghinis around, or Ferraris, come to that. Indeed, Lamborghinis first quarter '08 sales were 639 - digital-dust compared to Porsche sales numbers I'd guess?
As far as can be seen, (based on a very recent Reuters press announcement), Automobili Lamborghini SpA's president Stephan Winkelmann is projecting a sales increase of 5% this year and has said that ALL the cars for 2008 production are already sold...
(apart from the 'extra' Reventón that they are building for me, for free, so there
) and LotusJas - modern Lamborghinis are every bit as special as the older cars - still the same bullishness, still the same intensity of driver experience - usually just with better switchgear!!
Edited by XXVIII on Thursday 3rd April 14:02
Ferrari's and Lambos will never be as 'common' as Porsches as despite the massive improvement in build quality and reliability they are still not everyday cars. They are too low and too wide and in many cases too ostintatious for serious everyday driving and anything above 7000 miles a year kill the resale value.
Most of it is about the amount of money around though. As Autocar pointed out in a recent article there is a huge amount of cash floating around these days. Go into an Audi dealers with £80K in reddies to buy an R8 and you will be politely asked to wait 2 years.
Same with the F430 Scuderia (at over twice the price) and the 599 (at close to £200K for a decent spec car)
The 'special' cars are the ultra expensive, low volume, cars like Pagani, Enzo, Koenigsegg, Veyron Etc.
Even the Carrera GT isnt 'that' exclusive. How many owners do we have on here?
Most of it is about the amount of money around though. As Autocar pointed out in a recent article there is a huge amount of cash floating around these days. Go into an Audi dealers with £80K in reddies to buy an R8 and you will be politely asked to wait 2 years.
Same with the F430 Scuderia (at over twice the price) and the 599 (at close to £200K for a decent spec car)
The 'special' cars are the ultra expensive, low volume, cars like Pagani, Enzo, Koenigsegg, Veyron Etc.
Even the Carrera GT isnt 'that' exclusive. How many owners do we have on here?
So many porsches its unreal, unless its something VERY special I never look twice at a porsche...great cars clealy but oh so common, I've seen one Gallardo and one Murci in the centre...for me the Murci eclipsed the sight of the gallardo and it was still causing a massive stir as it drove through town, to be fair it was Tubi'd up and sounded epic
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff