Bit confused with brakes...

[thenick]

Just starting to look at summer's project and it's time to do the handling before I give the car any more power methinks!

I'd quite like to do the whole lot at once so I can have it all set up and tweeked in it's final state rather than add a bit, geo, add a bit more, geo some more etc. So so far I have selected Nitrons with the stiffer Eibach springs for the damping side of things, some new powerflex bushes as the old ones are looking a bit worn and a shiney new set of wheels which will probably be 18's back and 17's front. The last bit I'd like to change though are the brakes. I'm a bit confused here as there are so many options and combinations so I thought I'd ask what works and what doesn't.

The car is currently running a fair bit of power and this is set to increase with a supercharger setup still to come so I don't want to skimp on them, but equally I don't want to waste money or go overkill.

From what I've read, around a 380something mm disk seems to be a good size and grooved seems to be preferred over drilled to avoid cracking. Which disks should I look at aside from the Sierra 4x4's and what would be the pros/cons of this?

Secondly, with bigger disks I suspect I'll need bigger calipers certainly on the front, but I'm not sure what to do about the back. Are the standard ones up to the job, or is it possible to put the fronts on the back perhaps? Where new ones are needed, what's best for the job? I've seen reference to Ford Sierra parts, AP, Wilwood and a bunch of others, but I've been told the Wilwoods are a bit wooden and probably a bit overkill for fast road so that leaves Ford and AP that I'm aware of.

Then there's the issue of pads. I'll be using the car for fast road and some trackday work so they will have to be up to trackdays but not too bad on the road. Plus I'd rather not coat my new wheels in red brake dust! I've heard good things about Mintex fast road, are there any good alternatives to these or would they be a good bet?

Lastly, if the brakes are all changed, is there any problem getting the handbrake to work with a new setup or is it all plug and play (not done brakes before!)

Thanks in advance for any advice you may be able to give

[AntonyJ]

Why not just convert to 5 stud whilst you are at it, this will open up your wheel choices aswell.
Then the brakes could be the same as the later T cars, keeping everything TVR too.

[spend]

305mm go under 16" wheels, so I don't think you will get 380mm even under 18" wheels. As Ant says the 5 stud conversion to use later cars AP spec brakes is excellent. You need to do very little to the brakes at the back, selection of pads/disks will yield the balance you require IMHO.

It is possible to install the AP front brakes on the std Ford 4 stud hubs, just a bit less common I think and you certainly can't use 15" wheels.

Dave

[HRG]

You can get some tasty 310 mm Compbrake calipers in at the front on 17"s and the price is very good too. Certainly stop well

[GreenV8S]

If you take the fronts past about 285mm you will need to upgrade the rears and re-balance the hydraulics. Unless you need the extra cooling, it's a cost, risk and hassle that you could do without.

[spend]

Plenty of us have the AP front upgrades and the balance is fine with no change to the rears Pete. I'm sure if this was not acceptable Neill would have advised a change as part of the factory spider wheel/AP brake upgrade package. As you say when I first installed the package I thought I would have to something about the bias, but it is still original (one of the few things)...

Dave

[thenick]

Right sounds like I got the disc size a bit wrong! It sounds like 300ish is a better size to go for... I hadn't thought of the 5 stud conversion, how much are these and where would I get the bits? The same goes for the TVR AP brakes, would I just use the kit from a later speed 6 car from Power or similar? Any idea on prices for that lot?

[350Matt]

Hello Nick


You can fit 300+ size discs under your new big wheels and get some 4 pots from AP / Alcon / wilwood etc really spoilt for choice here as the sierra uprights have a lot of options thanks to the cosworth.

For a very cost effective upgrade

I would fit 283mm vented discs from the 2wd sierra cosworth - take your pick of suppliers EBC, black diamond or even Ford
and a pair of Mk III Ford granada Cosworth calipers will bolt straight on. These have a bigger pad than std with the same size piston ( still a single pot)

These in conjunction with braided hoses and green stuff pads will give an excellent brake set-up for about 300 quid if you buy it all new ( or even cheaper if you use 2nd hand calipers available via the 'bay for about 40quid)

This would even fit under your existing wheels.

Matt

[spend]

350Matt said:

Hello Nick


You can fit 300+ size discs under your new big wheels and get some 4 pots from AP / Alcon / wilwood etc really spoilt for choice here as the sierra uprights have a lot of options thanks to the cosworth.

For a very cost effective upgrade

I would fit 283mm vented discs from the 2wd sierra cosworth - take your pick of suppliers EBC, black diamond or even Ford
and a pair of Mk III Ford granada Cosworth calipers will bolt straight on. These have a bigger pad than std with the same size piston ( still a single pot)

These in conjunction with braided hoses and green stuff pads will give an excellent brake set-up for about 300 quid if you buy it all new ( or even cheaper if you use 2nd hand calipers available via the 'bay for about 40quid)

This would even fit under your existing wheels.

Matt

Deja Vu? sure I've read that somewhere before

Can you copy your own posts without infringing the HM copyright????

Dave

[lwt]

As to balance, my experience was that the standard car is over-braked at the rear. Whenever I did a stop test (private road/airfield etc etc) the rear always locked up so it became a bit of a handful (this on 225 fronts and 245 rears). When I put on 300 mm Wilwoods the balance became IMHO ideal. The fronts now lock first giving much better control. I would like to put Wilwood calipers on the rear for looks, but probably won't as it would upset the balance. Unless the lure of shiny things wins out... Just my view.

Ian.

[GreenV8S]

lwt said:

As to balance, my experience was that the standard car is over-braked at the rear. Whenever I did a stop test (private road/airfield etc etc) the rear always locked up so it became a bit of a handful (this on 225 fronts and 245 rears). When I put on 300 mm Wilwoods the balance became IMHO ideal. The fronts now lock first giving much better control. I would like to put Wilwood calipers on the rear for looks, but probably won't as it would upset the balance. Unless the lure of shiny things wins out... Just my view.

Ian.

There seems to be a clear trend for TVRs of that era to have too much (imo) rear brake bias, just as you say. So the issue is, what size brakes on the front give the optimum balance with the standard rears?

On my original setup (240mm front, 250mm solid rear) the same size front calipers spaced out to 285mm gave a slight front bias which suited me just right. On this setup, 300mm on the front is way too much with standard rears. If you're starting from a different standard setup no doubt the 'sweet spot' could be different, but wherever it is there will be a point that you don't want to go past on the front without sorting out the balance.

[Zumbruk]

GreenV8S said:

If you take the fronts past about 285mm you will need to upgrade the rears and re-balance the hydraulics.

Really? I've been running with 300mm fronts for over a year now without any problems, and the rears are absolutely standard.

[spend]

Well TVR did insist on upgrading to vented rears? I don't think they are that much more efficient and it was just a packaging thing with them including disks (5stud) as part of their upgrade package.

Maybe the bias valve on your S is(was) completely different to the Chim/Griff ones Pete?

Dave

[GreenV8S]

spend said:

Maybe the bias valve on your S is(was) completely different to the Chim/Griff ones Pete?

The whole brake setup looks identical to the early 4.0 Chim/Griff setup with 240mm front and 250mm solid rears. But the later Chim/Griff had vented rear discs and presumably different callipers so I don't assume they are the same. Whatever setup you have, there will be an optimum size for the front which gives the ideal balance, and going past that without correcting the balance is unwise.

[spend]

I beg to differ Pete, and I am sure this will be / has been supported by a lot of others.... The original bias needs to be corrected far more than if the fronts only are upgraded significantly.

Dave

[thenick]

This is what I feared, beefing up the fronts too much so that the balance was swung the other way. I'm not sure how big I'd need to go though to feel a significant benefit over the originals: perhaps a ride in someone else's with the 283 mod would help me get a better idea?

At the moment I'm looking at:

1. Wilwood kit on Power's website which includes the Wilwood calipers, big front disks, new rear discs, fast road pads and braded hoses all round for about £1150

2. Tvrcarparts 285mm front upgrade kit which with new rear disks, uprated rear pads and braided hoses comes to about £985 though I'm not sure what calipers they use (but they are 4 pots)

3. TVR AP brakes with a 5 stud conversion (not sure of price or where to get one though)

4. Ford Sierra Cossie 2WD calipers and disks, around £300 plus probably new disks at the back and nice pads and hoses all around

Anyone got any opinions on these routes? Or does anyone have one of these or similar in their car they could take me out in for a bit of a comparison against standard 500 brakes?

[spend]

Mail BB he has had a couple on his Griff and should be able to give you personal experience of 3, and possibly the others in OP's cars.

Dave

[Pupp]

thenick said:

2. Tvrcarparts 285mm front upgrade kit which with new rear disks, uprated rear pads and braided hoses comes to about £985 though I'm not sure what calipers they use (but they are 4 pots)


Anyone got any opinions on these routes?

IIRC, these are the Hispec calipers that I have on mine... completely happy with them and they are weather sealed unlike some alternatives (although, I've never come across lack of crud seals actually being a problem given a modicum of maintenance.)
http://www.hispecbrake.co.uk/Start%20Calipers.htm

[GreenV8S]

spend said:

I beg to differ Pete, and I am sure this will be / has been supported by a lot of others.... The original bias needs to be corrected far more than if the fronts only are upgraded significantly.

Dave

Sorry, I'm having trouble following what you mean there. You're saying that none of the front upgrades being discussed could have changed the bias far enough to correct the original imbalance?

[hiltonig]

For me I am getting the wilwood setup with the poly Q low dust / low noise pads. Have a look at rally design.co.uk , its under brake kits. Not bad value for money for what your getting