Discussion
Saw the Bahrain GP and the IRL St. Petersburg race yesterday.
The better race was the IRL. Many leader changes--where the leader actually held the lead for an extended period of time, a guy who started 9th on the grid wins.
There is no doubt that F1 cars have presence--but Speed TV was making a big deal about Massa winning a race for the first time not on pole--he started 2nd! The best F1 races are in the wet where the field gets jumbled up.
My questions
1) When was the last time a car started on the back third of the grid and won?
2) Knowing the unbelievable odds of winning when you start at the back of the grid, why does Super Aguri/Force India bother--why don't they go to another series where they can clean up--and cut their costs by at least 50%.
The better race was the IRL. Many leader changes--where the leader actually held the lead for an extended period of time, a guy who started 9th on the grid wins.
There is no doubt that F1 cars have presence--but Speed TV was making a big deal about Massa winning a race for the first time not on pole--he started 2nd! The best F1 races are in the wet where the field gets jumbled up.
My questions
1) When was the last time a car started on the back third of the grid and won?
2) Knowing the unbelievable odds of winning when you start at the back of the grid, why does Super Aguri/Force India bother--why don't they go to another series where they can clean up--and cut their costs by at least 50%.
Force India bother because Vijay Mallya is a fan of F1 and he has the wherewithall to have his own team.
Super Aguri exist to provide Honda with more engine data and give Sato and Davidson drives.
We need back of the grid teams to give new drivers somewhere to get experience before moving into the big teams (of fading into obscurity).
Love of the sport also factors into it, as well as a little guy to root for in a Minardi kind of way.
Super Aguri exist to provide Honda with more engine data and give Sato and Davidson drives.
We need back of the grid teams to give new drivers somewhere to get experience before moving into the big teams (of fading into obscurity).
Love of the sport also factors into it, as well as a little guy to root for in a Minardi kind of way.
Edited by johnph on Monday 7th April 14:38
I watched both, and the IndyCar race was miles better than the Bahrain GP - I don't know why I bothered waking up at 7 am to watch it live, but I shalln't bother for the rest of the season.
Great to see Rahal do well, and to see the former ChampCar teams on the pace. I think the new series has a real fighting change, and I'm looking forward to seeing them at Mid Ohio and the Kentucky Speedway later this year.
Great to see Rahal do well, and to see the former ChampCar teams on the pace. I think the new series has a real fighting change, and I'm looking forward to seeing them at Mid Ohio and the Kentucky Speedway later this year.
To be fair you can't compare one solitary weather affected race in IRL with one dry race in F1 and come to any meaningful conclusions on which is the most exciting. The only real reason Rahal won from 9th place on the grid was because of the weather, had it been dry for the whole race and the teams didnt have to play pitstop lottery on when/whether to go to slicks, its probable that one of the top 4 would have won the race. The same happens in wet / changeable F1 races, Button won the Hungarian GP in 2006 from 14th on the grid for example, and Raikkonen won the Japanes race the year before from even further back IIRC.
Edited by LocoBlade on Monday 7th April 19:40
jpf said:
1) When was the last time a car started on the back third of the grid and won?
Michael Schumacher, Belgian GP 1995, started 16th won the race by 20secs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Belgian_Grand_Pr...
Sure there have been others too.
FourWheelDrift said:
jpf said:
1) When was the last time a car started on the back third of the grid and won?
Michael Schumacher, Belgian GP 1995, started 16th won the race by 20secs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Belgian_Grand_Pr...
Sure there have been others too.
Errrm
Kimi Raikkonen - Japanese GP 2005. Started 17th
Jenson Button - Hungarian GP 2006. Started 14th (tecnically not quite the last 3rd of a 22 car grid but he couldn't start in 14.6th place
)
There's probably more but I CBA to trawl through the stats
Kimi Raikkonen - Japanese GP 2005. Started 17th
Jenson Button - Hungarian GP 2006. Started 14th (tecnically not quite the last 3rd of a 22 car grid but he couldn't start in 14.6th place
)There's probably more but I CBA to trawl through the stats
Edited by LocoBlade on Monday 7th April 20:39
Sorry but I can't get at all excited about US open wheel racing any more. The cars are just awful, most races are run on ovals (yes I don't mind one or two but most of the season??), plus I have no confidence in Tony George's way of doing things - he's created a heavily watered-down version of a once-great championship.
I also wonder whether an F1 team would consider taking on an IRL champion?
I also wonder whether an F1 team would consider taking on an IRL champion?
kevin ritson said:
Sorry but I can't get at all excited about US open wheel racing any more. The cars are just awful, most races are run on ovals (yes I don't mind one or two but most of the season??), plus I have no confidence in Tony George's way of doing things - he's created a heavily watered-down version of a once-great championship.
I also wonder whether an F1 team would consider taking on an IRL champion?
The cars are gong to be replaced in 2010 and there is astong voice that they have more than one chassis maker. Honda have said that they'll pull the plug and concentrate on sportscars if they don't get any competition soon. The 2010 formula is bein designed to get a more diverse grid. I also wonder whether an F1 team would consider taking on an IRL champion?
The calendar is a mess due to the sudden nature of the reunification, look to 2009-10 for a proper set or tracks, a lot of contracts expire at the end of '09 so we should have a proper schedule and proper cars for 2010.
The excess of ovals is a problem, the old Indycar series was based around one third oval, one third street and one third permanent tracks. And they didn't go to high banked 1.5 mile cookie cutter Nascar tracks hich are completely unsuitable for open-wheelers (Firestone Firehawk 600 anyone?). You need more than one or two ovals per season but not more than one third. Abandoning ovals was part of Champ Car's downfall.
IRL is a single make formula whereas F1 teams are (supposedly) building their own cars and engine package, that's why there's a huge discrepancy between the front and back of an F1 grid.
IRL therefore is more akin to GP2.
Franchitti turned down Jaguar and I doubt Wheldon is kicking himself over Kubica's seat because last year showed he was poor road racer.
IRL therefore is more akin to GP2.
kevin ritson said:
I also wonder whether an F1 team would consider taking on an IRL champion?
Or why should a driver end up in 'inferior machinery' when you can still have the glory, the money and more importantly keeping your pride intact in the States. Franchitti turned down Jaguar and I doubt Wheldon is kicking himself over Kubica's seat because last year showed he was poor road racer.
Question 2); You could say the same about almost any top-line sport. There are only four or five football teams in the Premier League that are every likely to win anything so why do the lesser teams bother? Money is a big factor (both in football and F1) - but is not also about the spirit of competition? - the chance to evolve and develop and at least try to win?
Once the dust has settled from the CCWS merger, I think IRL will be a really good formula to watch. There's a nice mix of drivers there now, some being oval specialists whilst some are road specialists, so should be interesting to see how they get on. I don't really care what the cars look like to be honest, I just want to see decent racing. The whole issue of full course cautions undoubtedly helps the racing, but then you could say the same of F1 safety car races.
Hopefully a stronger single series will bump up the driver quality over the next few years, as the IRL of old did have it's fair share of dross. That said, I've always enjoyed the Indy one-offs, and I hope that continues. I think it will increasingly become a viable home for those without the financial clout to reach F1, if indeed people view reaching F1 as the ultimate goal these days. The likes of Wheldon and Franchitti have made a decent living out there, and I'm sure people like Viso will make a decent fist of it. Must be better than tooling around fighting for 12th every other weekend in F1, surely?
Hopefully a stronger single series will bump up the driver quality over the next few years, as the IRL of old did have it's fair share of dross. That said, I've always enjoyed the Indy one-offs, and I hope that continues. I think it will increasingly become a viable home for those without the financial clout to reach F1, if indeed people view reaching F1 as the ultimate goal these days. The likes of Wheldon and Franchitti have made a decent living out there, and I'm sure people like Viso will make a decent fist of it. Must be better than tooling around fighting for 12th every other weekend in F1, surely?
jpf said:
What was the gap between the top 8 finishers in the Bahrain GP vs the IRL race? I'll get the gap (in seconds) was smaller in the IRL race.
I think the aerodynamics has made close racing a bit of a misnomer in F1--outside of the start...
They didn't throw full course yellow flags and get the pace car out every time a car spun in Bahrain unlike the IRL race. This made the cars bunch up a lot during the race so the gaps will be smaller.I think the aerodynamics has made close racing a bit of a misnomer in F1--outside of the start...
entropy said:
hornet said:
I don't really care what the cars look like to be honest, I just want to see decent racing.
Rain/humid/overcast conditions - you could the whisper trails of turbulent off there rearwing endplates!!!When was the last time you saw that in F1? Roll on 2009!
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