Highly modified GT3 Twin Turbo just won't sell...
Discussion

Bit of a mystery to me, this one.
The wonderful world of William Loughran have had this car for sale since the middle ages.
To say it's a bit special would be like saying Daz 'quite likes' bombing runs.
It has a colossally impressive specification and with a claimed 600 bhp, looks uncommonly fine value at fifty sovs under the eighty big 'uns mark.
So why is it still sat there?
Theories on a Heinkel 111, if you please.
No mystery
Modded Porkers are sales death unless they're from a very well known tuner ie Ruf or, err... Ruf.
Is this your car ? Link ?
Edited to add: we've had modded 911s for years, they've never been an 'investment' to say the least
Thank goodness mum rejected the option of a 'Sport' retro-fit on the 959
>> Edited by jaydee on Saturday 9th August 15:32

Is this your car ? Link ?
Edited to add: we've had modded 911s for years, they've never been an 'investment' to say the least


>> Edited by jaydee on Saturday 9th August 15:32
jaydee said:
No mystery Modded Porkers are sales death unless they're from a very well known tuner ie Ruf or, err... Ruf.
Is this your car ? Link ?
Oh cheers, Dad! (Congrats, btw

Unfortunately, it is not a contraption of derestriction although I must confess a strange yearning when considering it's dilithium content!
It's quite interesting to acknowledge the mindlessness of branding bias within the steroidal 911 ranks: I'm sure you're right but I'd have thought Gemballa has a certain kudos and in fact, it's interesting to note (sure I've mentioned this on a threda before) how much component sharing/sourcing/swapping occurs within this specialist, Germanic fettling community.
But yes, there is a certain desire to keep things 'officially stamped' as it were but if you ain't planning on selling on, well...

Oh dear.
derestrictor said:
It's quite interesting to acknowledge the mindlessness of branding bias within the steroidal 911 ranks: I'm sure you're right but I'd have thought Gemballa has a certain kudos and in fact, it's interesting to note (sure I've mentioned this on a threda before) how much component sharing/sourcing/swapping occurs within this specialist, Germanic fettling community.
I agree wholeheartedly that the branding issue is given too much weight. I'm not sure that even Gemballa would have the necessary kudos with many Porschistas. FWIW I'd view a 600bhp claim with some caution, the press Ruf R (which I had the misfortune to drive


*I've driven many iterations of the air-cooled and water cooled 911 and this was the first one that, on well maintained Swiss mountain roads in perfect weather, felt as though it was doing it's utmost to launch me backwards through the Armco. It also had that 'natural frequency' effect of some highly tuned cars, whereby it's not really happy at all under 150mph

>> Edited by jaydee on Saturday 9th August 15:51
Sounds immensely entertaining!
From my limited experience and what certain 'Porsche people' have told me, there are what you might call 'notional limits' below which, the primary stress loads which might otherwise cause the sort of meltdowns you refer to...in the case of the 993, this appears to be about 550 bhp. (Which is suitably convenient!)
Re the natural frequency: again, good point; the 550 993 I recently tried certainly seemed tractable at all speeds but I must acknowledge, my car gets into a kind of 'hunkered down' stride at 'a certain speed' too...
All good fun.
They're clearly stupidly hardy things (as you'll obviously be aware) but with 493 bhp, as an example, mine's on it's original clutch (with 38k miles up).
>> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 9th August 16:17
From my limited experience and what certain 'Porsche people' have told me, there are what you might call 'notional limits' below which, the primary stress loads which might otherwise cause the sort of meltdowns you refer to...in the case of the 993, this appears to be about 550 bhp. (Which is suitably convenient!)
Re the natural frequency: again, good point; the 550 993 I recently tried certainly seemed tractable at all speeds but I must acknowledge, my car gets into a kind of 'hunkered down' stride at 'a certain speed' too...
All good fun.

They're clearly stupidly hardy things (as you'll obviously be aware) but with 493 bhp, as an example, mine's on it's original clutch (with 38k miles up).
>> Edited by derestrictor on Saturday 9th August 16:17
derestrictor said:
Sounds immensely entertaining!
For the track


derestrictor said:
From my limited experience and what certain 'Porsche people' have told me, there are what you might call 'notional limits' below which, the primary stress loads which might otherwise cause the sort of meltdowns you refer to...in the case of the 993, this appears to be about 550 bhp. (Which is suitably convenient!)
The 'R' is built up from a 996, but I suspect the limits may be similar.
derestrictor said:
They're clearly stupidly hardy things (as you'll obviously be aware) but with 493 bhp, as an example, mine's on it's original clutch (with 38k miles up).
That's impressive. Unless you're not trying hard enough

...which seems unlikely

Jaydee, I tell ya, I've done so many early morning Sunday 0-whatever mph blasts over the local moors that if the thing was made of anything less than weapons-grade, alien sourced titanium, it would have given up the ghost some time ago.
That said, stage 4's 550 conversion will see a Countach-spec, calftastic unit replace the OEM unit.
Shame the 959s never came in RHD.
(Speaking of which, what WAS the crack re the 450 versus 550 differential I've read about? Any ideas?)
That said, stage 4's 550 conversion will see a Countach-spec, calftastic unit replace the OEM unit.
Shame the 959s never came in RHD.

DeR. I think the standard 959 came with 450 bhp, but the factory made a few 550bhp versions. One of which was recently for sale at autoclassica, silver bodywork - nice, scarlet red interior overload - ghastly, built for Royalty of some kind according to the advert.
I don't know if it was modded turbos etc.....or just tweaking electronics in the same way many aftermarket tuners do today.
Jaydee, congrats on the nipper, hope he sleeps well for the benefit of yourself and the Mrs. Oh, Porsche do a nice line in mini Boxster pedal cars, I bought one recently for a two year old cousin, he loves it.
DAZ
DeR, would you prefer to spend 80k on a modded GT3 or 90k on a GT2? even if the GT3 is modded by Gemballa.
>> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Saturday 9th August 16:53
I don't know if it was modded turbos etc.....or just tweaking electronics in the same way many aftermarket tuners do today.
Jaydee, congrats on the nipper, hope he sleeps well for the benefit of yourself and the Mrs. Oh, Porsche do a nice line in mini Boxster pedal cars, I bought one recently for a two year old cousin, he loves it.
DAZ
DeR, would you prefer to spend 80k on a modded GT3 or 90k on a GT2? even if the GT3 is modded by Gemballa.
>> Edited by dazren (moderator) on Saturday 9th August 16:53
Correct, mein West Country General.
Indeed, I do like the context of an entirely standard looking 993 with that kind of power.
Only the bucket seats, roll cage and latest edition copy of the Domster Cupholder Guide atop the fat extinguisher might suggest an altogether unseemly prescence of thoroughly illicit grutwoldt von schnellentropp.

Indeed, I do like the context of an entirely standard looking 993 with that kind of power.
Only the bucket seats, roll cage and latest edition copy of the Domster Cupholder Guide atop the fat extinguisher might suggest an altogether unseemly prescence of thoroughly illicit grutwoldt von schnellentropp.

Interesting point, but not suprising, modified Porkers always bomb come re-sale. Why, I think it's the potential cost likely to frighten even lottery winners when that highly stressed engine, clutch, gearbox & all implode after one BLAST too many!!! We all know the horrendous labour rates attached to Porkers & this is what stops me going down the "an extra 100bhp sir..no problem just plug in this chip" route !!!
Porsche design tolerances aren't what they used to be & how much extra can you feed through the beastie without affecting reliability, air filter, exhaust mods fine beyond that, no thankyou ??? I love cars but the bloody things all loose money far too fast without throwing a holiday home at them in modification costs. I'd still like 600BHP mind, but if it could be done reliably why don't porsche do it themselves ????
Porsche design tolerances aren't what they used to be & how much extra can you feed through the beastie without affecting reliability, air filter, exhaust mods fine beyond that, no thankyou ??? I love cars but the bloody things all loose money far too fast without throwing a holiday home at them in modification costs. I'd still like 600BHP mind, but if it could be done reliably why don't porsche do it themselves ????
dazren said:
DeR. I think the standard 959 came with 450 bhp, but the factory made a few 550bhp versions.
The sport (as opposed to komfort) model had the same power, but lost 200+lbs in creature comforts. A number of cars had an retrofit power boost to 550bhp, but 959 PNM (the car to which you refer I think) isn't one of them.
dazren said:
One of which was recently for sale at autoclassica, silver bodywork - nice, scarlet red interior overload - ghastly, built for Royalty of some kind according to the advert.
'CanCan colour theme'



dazren said:
I don't know if it was modded turbos etc.....or just tweaking electronics in the same way many aftermarket tuners do today.
Remap, different airboxes, new intercooler, retuned suspension.
dazren said:
Jaydee, congrats on the nipper, hope he sleeps well for the benefit of yourself and the Mrs. Oh, Porsche do a nice line in mini Boxster pedal cars, I bought one recently for a two year old cousin, he loves it.


Another factor that i feel influences modified porker values is that if a standard car wasn't enough it has been modidfied for more power,therefore it will have had a hard life.
This is not always strictly true as some like the kudos of spending money on their Porsches.
Although I appreciate the feel of mega grunt must be wonderful on a Turbo,I don't totally get this voracious appetite for extra horse.
An X50 is a great car...I know this and Autocar says so...so there!
but is it not about driving the things and pushing ones personal envelope of ability?
What I am trying to say thet is rather than spend £000's on the car,it may make sense to spend £hundreds on driver tuituion.That way you may be able to make better use of what you have or indeed equip yourself for a future 600bhp monster.
Point in case,nobody was keen to take 9M on round a trackin a 2wd car with under 400bhp...
Der, another possibility for the 993 ...after the lighter seats,,don't forget RS models have an aluminium bonnet...
This is not always strictly true as some like the kudos of spending money on their Porsches.
Although I appreciate the feel of mega grunt must be wonderful on a Turbo,I don't totally get this voracious appetite for extra horse.
An X50 is a great car...I know this and Autocar says so...so there!
but is it not about driving the things and pushing ones personal envelope of ability?
What I am trying to say thet is rather than spend £000's on the car,it may make sense to spend £hundreds on driver tuituion.That way you may be able to make better use of what you have or indeed equip yourself for a future 600bhp monster.
Point in case,nobody was keen to take 9M on round a trackin a 2wd car with under 400bhp...
Der, another possibility for the 993 ...after the lighter seats,,don't forget RS models have an aluminium bonnet...
clubsport said:
...nobody was keen to take 9M on round a trackin a 2wd car with under 400bhp...
Obviously, it is very much horses for courses but only a d1ck would take on Crazy Colin in his particular killing machine, on track more than anywhere.
The track tutoring idea makes immense sense but alas, whilst handling delicacy is a wonderful thing, for mere mortals, not to mention northern monkeys like what I is, sledgehammerism does take on an attractive glow and in Turbo form, to which you allude, Paul, the fix is generally a worthwhile end in itself.
Grant - I think the tuning houses are merely reflecting mainstream, future power levels: with Audi's Bentley VW-Phaeton V10/V12 thing going on, BMW Motorsport looking at a 4-550 bhp field next time and Merc just, well, losing the plot(!), Porsche will have little choice but to up the ante considerably to maintain not just a handling dominance (now being challenged by the Audi Gallardo, perhaps?) but a straight line slap to those impertinent Stuttgartians.
The debate about stress levels will always generally favour the original specifier but as Brabus have had no problem establishing themselves, so the Porsche tuners are hardly 'just' Max Power type chip shop boys: of course there is more pressure on a modified car but when you factor in the raft of physical component upgrades, the worry is greatly reduced.
In just over 3 years of ownership, most of which has been uprated (and if you exclude my dormency in the battery stakes

It is totally spiffing; not as polished as you boys with the techno jewel, natch but still possessing of enough vomit & brimstone that Paul von Clubben Sportivissimo might deign to alight and abuse.
Perhaps tellingly, it was my conviction with the basic car's indominatability, that I knew, without any doubt, that it was not just 'the car for me, forever' but, the basis for perfecting the mix, liberating the most satisfaction.
Then again, it's entirely subjective...
Sorry about that, chaps.
Have you been drinking
That last post was florid even by your usual standards
"The debate about stress levels will always generally favour the original specifier but as Brabus have had no problem establishing themselves, so the Porsche tuners are hardly 'just' Max Power type chip shop boys: of course there is more pressure on a modified car but when you factor in the raft of physical component upgrades, the worry is greatly reduced."
Absolutely, but, sadly, I suspect it's a case of I know that, you know that... and that aftermarket work is doomed always to devalue a car. I'd be interested to know what effect it has on other prestige brands, I don't know if a Brabus-ed Merc retains the value of the work done thereto, for example ?



"The debate about stress levels will always generally favour the original specifier but as Brabus have had no problem establishing themselves, so the Porsche tuners are hardly 'just' Max Power type chip shop boys: of course there is more pressure on a modified car but when you factor in the raft of physical component upgrades, the worry is greatly reduced."
Absolutely, but, sadly, I suspect it's a case of I know that, you know that... and that aftermarket work is doomed always to devalue a car. I'd be interested to know what effect it has on other prestige brands, I don't know if a Brabus-ed Merc retains the value of the work done thereto, for example ?
If you modify any car you will achieve two things when you come to sell:
1. Lose 50% to 75% (or more) of the cost of modifications.
2. Make it much harder to sell.
It is often better to return a car to standard trim (if possible) and sell the parts separately. This will often get more money back.
I can speak of some experience with my tuned Skylines, I spent £82,000 over 2 years on the modifications (which included 3 blown engines!) to my 700bhp R34 and come re-sale it only added about £15,000 to the value - ouch!. Most people view modifications with a suspicious eye and hence you only have a small audience come re-sale time. It also doesn't help that UK insurance does not understand and therefore penalises modifications.
It is often better to buy a car that has been modified and let someone else carry the cost. The R32 GTR I had (owned between me and GTRHenry) cost us £25k, but had had approx £120k worth of parts and labour spent on it. It ran 1018 bhp (yes over one thousand genuine UK bhp) at the wheels a few weeks ago for the new owner, but then exploded necessitating another rebuild at circa £15k.
As for Porkers, another mate of mine was seriously going to buy the GT3TT in question, but was advised against it, since although it has the engine done, it was not certain that all the addtional bits necessary to ensure longevity had also been done ie does it have uprated gearbox, diff, driveshafts, coolers etc etc. There are many reasons that a GT2 is over £40k more expensive than a GT3 and it's a lot more than the cost of a couple of turbos. It's the parts you don't see that have been upgraded that matter the most......! (eg larger diameter gearbox input shaft)
The issue of brand is very important when it come to modifications to Porkers. If you only have an exhaust then it doen't really matter, but a full-on upgrade does. In this context there is only really one name that counts - Ruf. This is not just due to their quality of work, but their customer back-up and service and their status as a registered manufacturer of new cars ie the new cars are Rufs NOT Porsches. Their conversions are also warrantied and I believe they have never had a warranty claim for an engine.
Oh, and yes, before you ask, I have been talking to Ruf about upgrading the GT2 with their 550bhp/580TQ conversion.........
Guy
Another point....
Do not ever consider modifiying anything but fastest model in the range. There is no point turning a GT3 into a GT2 since it will never have the originality and value of a GT2 come re-sale.
My advice is if your car is too slow, then get the faster model, you will do better in the long run.
The only exception to this is if your car is cheap enough and the costs of modifications are small. eg if you can source a 993TT lhd from Germany for £30k, then spent £5k on chip and exhaust to get 500bhp, then it is a great car for £35k (as was the Ruf modded 993TT sold here recently for £36k).
Guy
Do not ever consider modifiying anything but fastest model in the range. There is no point turning a GT3 into a GT2 since it will never have the originality and value of a GT2 come re-sale.
My advice is if your car is too slow, then get the faster model, you will do better in the long run.
The only exception to this is if your car is cheap enough and the costs of modifications are small. eg if you can source a 993TT lhd from Germany for £30k, then spent £5k on chip and exhaust to get 500bhp, then it is a great car for £35k (as was the Ruf modded 993TT sold here recently for £36k).
Guy
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