111s or 111r with £17k max to spend
Discussion
Evening, My name is James and I decided to join this forum today as it seemed to have a fair few knowledgable people about my particular dilema.
I am a very keen driver that is looking to buy a second car for the sunny weekends and track days. I have done a fair bit of research now into the Elise (decided the Exige is too expensive) now and have decided the 111S or 111R is the car for me.
My main questions are is the K series engine much worse that the new Toyota one? How much better is the gear box? Does 6 gears make a big difference? I will never drive the car at 150mph (most tracks have space for 120 odd) so apart from that is there a noticeable performance difference apart from the 0.3 seconds to 60? Can you get the 111R with the exhaust like the 111s? I love the ones with one either side rather than the two tiny exige style one you get hidden away.
Does the new, bigger Toyota engine effect the handling?
I know that for my money I should get a 111s with about 15k on the clock on a 54 plate. Is this a better deal than a 111r with 40k odd?
Sorry for all the questions but hoping there may be someone out there that has driven / experience with both.
Thanks in advance to anyone that manages to read through this and give any advise.
James
I am a very keen driver that is looking to buy a second car for the sunny weekends and track days. I have done a fair bit of research now into the Elise (decided the Exige is too expensive) now and have decided the 111S or 111R is the car for me.
My main questions are is the K series engine much worse that the new Toyota one? How much better is the gear box? Does 6 gears make a big difference? I will never drive the car at 150mph (most tracks have space for 120 odd) so apart from that is there a noticeable performance difference apart from the 0.3 seconds to 60? Can you get the 111R with the exhaust like the 111s? I love the ones with one either side rather than the two tiny exige style one you get hidden away.
Does the new, bigger Toyota engine effect the handling?
I know that for my money I should get a 111s with about 15k on the clock on a 54 plate. Is this a better deal than a 111r with 40k odd?
Sorry for all the questions but hoping there may be someone out there that has driven / experience with both.
Thanks in advance to anyone that manages to read through this and give any advise.
James
Welcome 
1. K-series v Toyota?
No it's not worse but it is different. The 111S has a nice linear powerband whilst the 111R has a pronounced 2nd cam jump and will rev to 8000+. Some like the former and some like the latter. You need to drive both variants and decide which one you prefer.
2. Gearbox?
Easy - the Toyota gearbox is much nicer.
3. 6 speeds?
Yes it does make a difference but I don't think many would feel shortchanged with the 5 speed 111S box.
4. Performance?
Despite the bhp difference, IMO there's not a lot in it between the 111S and the 111R. The 111S has less bhp but it weighs less. The 111R is the opposite with more bhp but is also heavier!!
The magazines have done the tests so there is some reference material there.
5. Exhaust 111S style
Sorry no idea!
Go and drive both variants - you'll find the gearchange, the servoed brakes and the 2nd cam are easy characteristics to notice on the 111R.
Enjoy and good luck with your decision
1. K-series v Toyota?
No it's not worse but it is different. The 111S has a nice linear powerband whilst the 111R has a pronounced 2nd cam jump and will rev to 8000+. Some like the former and some like the latter. You need to drive both variants and decide which one you prefer.
2. Gearbox?
Easy - the Toyota gearbox is much nicer.
3. 6 speeds?
Yes it does make a difference but I don't think many would feel shortchanged with the 5 speed 111S box.
4. Performance?
Despite the bhp difference, IMO there's not a lot in it between the 111S and the 111R. The 111S has less bhp but it weighs less. The 111R is the opposite with more bhp but is also heavier!!
The magazines have done the tests so there is some reference material there.
5. Exhaust 111S style
Sorry no idea!
Go and drive both variants - you'll find the gearchange, the servoed brakes and the 2nd cam are easy characteristics to notice on the 111R.
Enjoy and good luck with your decision
Thank you very much for the advise, some goods points.
Is there anyone that owns the 111S that could give me an overview of their opinion on it and maybe why they went for it over the 111r?
I'm sure you have all been asked this a million times before so apologies in advance. By the way I have done a lot of reading on both of the cars but finding a review with a direct comparison is hard.
Ta
Is there anyone that owns the 111S that could give me an overview of their opinion on it and maybe why they went for it over the 111r?
I'm sure you have all been asked this a million times before so apologies in advance. By the way I have done a lot of reading on both of the cars but finding a review with a direct comparison is hard.
Ta
dubsey said:
Thank you very much for the advise, some goods points.
Is there anyone that owns the 111S that could give me an overview of their opinion on it and maybe why they went for it over the 111r?
I'm sure you have all been asked this a million times before so apologies in advance. By the way I have done a lot of reading on both of the cars but finding a review with a direct comparison is hard.
Ta
I'd look at an R they've just dropped below 17k for early car's but to be honest it might be a deal breaker if you don't like the kick with the 2nd camIs there anyone that owns the 111S that could give me an overview of their opinion on it and maybe why they went for it over the 111r?
I'm sure you have all been asked this a million times before so apologies in advance. By the way I have done a lot of reading on both of the cars but finding a review with a direct comparison is hard.
Ta
Boggy
I've driven both and dont think I could live with the Toyota unit unless it was mainly going to be used on track due to its peaky power deliver - my elise, s2 K-series, just goes from low revs and pulls pretty much through the reve range, I'd imagine its the better car in the real world where you dont always get to use all of your rev range.
Also I'd imagine you'd get a very nice 111s for your 17k as opposed to a probably a bit rough 111r
Also I'd imagine you'd get a very nice 111s for your 17k as opposed to a probably a bit rough 111r
You won't get a really decent 111r for 17k. Would have high miles on it & would most likely be an early model one without touring pack aircon etc. You could get a very decent 111s with low milage, all the trimmings, hard top, aircon etc.
I was torn between the two. Went for the 111s as the power delivery was more suited to my driving style & I found it more than fast enough. With the R I felt I was waiting for the 2nd cam & having to drive around revving the nuts off it. This made me a bit nervous to be honest as I was paying more attention to getting the revs up high waiting to get into 2nd cam. That's not to say the R is a slouch before the 2nd cam, but it didn't have that linear power delivery the vvc has. The vvc under acceleration is a great feeling, love it! I found it a nice car for thrashing around B roads as it felt lighter & the brakes have great feeling in them as well without the servo assistance. Haven't felt anything like it before. I would appreciate a 6th gear of the R for motorway journies though.
The R does have a nicer gearbox, but the 111s can be much improved with the gear linkage and short shift kit. The 111s has better fuel economy as well & much lower road tax.
If your a bit of a mentalist behind the wheel then the R is better suited to you. I would personally go for a well sorted S as 17k is pushing it on the R front.
I was torn between the two. Went for the 111s as the power delivery was more suited to my driving style & I found it more than fast enough. With the R I felt I was waiting for the 2nd cam & having to drive around revving the nuts off it. This made me a bit nervous to be honest as I was paying more attention to getting the revs up high waiting to get into 2nd cam. That's not to say the R is a slouch before the 2nd cam, but it didn't have that linear power delivery the vvc has. The vvc under acceleration is a great feeling, love it! I found it a nice car for thrashing around B roads as it felt lighter & the brakes have great feeling in them as well without the servo assistance. Haven't felt anything like it before. I would appreciate a 6th gear of the R for motorway journies though.
The R does have a nicer gearbox, but the 111s can be much improved with the gear linkage and short shift kit. The 111s has better fuel economy as well & much lower road tax.
If your a bit of a mentalist behind the wheel then the R is better suited to you. I would personally go for a well sorted S as 17k is pushing it on the R front.
Really appreciate that advise. I think if I'm being honest with myself I know that I will get a much better car for my money if I went with the s. I guess the extra power and that gear box is the temptation.
You mention the upgrade for the gearbox on the s. I was under the impression that the 111s got a shorter shift gear box or something like that (excuse my lack of technical knowledge)??
You mention the upgrade for the gearbox on the s. I was under the impression that the 111s got a shorter shift gear box or something like that (excuse my lack of technical knowledge)??
dubsey said:
I was under the impression that the 111s got a shorter shift gear box or something like that (excuse my lack of technical knowledge)??
A standard 111s has a wider ratio gear box than an normal K-series Elise S2. This has exactly the same shift action as the normal box. Whilst the WR box improves the fuel economy of the car it makes it not much faster accelerating than a lower powered Elise. It is possible to get a 111s with the normal box which makes it pretty fast. Not significantly slower to 100 than the 111R by all accounts. My car is like that 
You can get short shifter kits as well as upgraded gear linkages from Elise parts. I don't have these but they are meant to improve the feel of the box quite significantly.
Been on a few runs and the r does pull away slowly on the straights, not seen too much difference around the twisties though in practise. K is a nice steady delivery (esp in 111s guise) up to the NSL+10, mid-bend you can keep the power gradual as opposed to having the second cam kick in when your loaded on one side.
17k should see you with a good 111s with good history & maintenance + probably some 'upgrades'. Either are, of course, very good cars - you won't be disappointed either way but try the r second cam - some love it, others are less enamoured it seems - see which suits you sir, good luck either way James.
17k should see you with a good 111s with good history & maintenance + probably some 'upgrades'. Either are, of course, very good cars - you won't be disappointed either way but try the r second cam - some love it, others are less enamoured it seems - see which suits you sir, good luck either way James.
Edited by andy_s on Thursday 17th April 18:14
The 111S has better power to weight so accelerates faster to 90 where the extra bhp of the 111R takes over to help overcome drag.
PS there is zero performance difference between the K series wide ratio and close ratio gearboxes. The CR may "feel" faster but having fitted both and reviewed datalogging and laptimes there is zero performance gain.
If you want to be really fast on track, light weight is the key and the S1 111S is then best out of the box.
PS there is zero performance difference between the K series wide ratio and close ratio gearboxes. The CR may "feel" faster but having fitted both and reviewed datalogging and laptimes there is zero performance gain.
If you want to be really fast on track, light weight is the key and the S1 111S is then best out of the box.
Yep, it was the Eliseparts short shift linkage & gear stick upgrade I was mentioning. I believe Lotus even do their own version as I got mine fitted at service & could have the Lotus one for 120 quid, as opposed to the 60 odd quid from Eliseparts.
It makes the gear change feel a lot more precise than before. With a standard 111s you'll find the gear change just doesn't give any feedback & doesn't feel like it's slotting into gear (2nd to 3rd is a real nightmare). Very cheap upgrade and makes a world of difference, although admittedly not as good as the one on the R, but a hell of a lot better than it was before. Any dealer can fit this for you before purchase for bugger all, although you'll probably find most people have had it done if buying privately.
The other consideration is the cost if things go wrong. The Toyota unit is very reliable but if a high milage one went kapput you'd be looking at forking out a few grand for a new one to be supplied and fitted. If the VVC goes then you can get a replacement supplied and fitted for just over a grand! Ignore the head gasket horror stories, 55 quid a year AA insurance and you're covered for £500's worth of mechanical breakages which will fix an HGF.
It makes the gear change feel a lot more precise than before. With a standard 111s you'll find the gear change just doesn't give any feedback & doesn't feel like it's slotting into gear (2nd to 3rd is a real nightmare). Very cheap upgrade and makes a world of difference, although admittedly not as good as the one on the R, but a hell of a lot better than it was before. Any dealer can fit this for you before purchase for bugger all, although you'll probably find most people have had it done if buying privately.
The other consideration is the cost if things go wrong. The Toyota unit is very reliable but if a high milage one went kapput you'd be looking at forking out a few grand for a new one to be supplied and fitted. If the VVC goes then you can get a replacement supplied and fitted for just over a grand! Ignore the head gasket horror stories, 55 quid a year AA insurance and you're covered for £500's worth of mechanical breakages which will fix an HGF.
All the above has really helped, thank you very much. 99% sure I will go for a 111s now.
I'm sorry for my ignorance but this short shift gear box thing - I found a few reviews that said the new 111s (say 2004 time) came with a new close ratio gearbox. Clarkson reviewed a green one on top gear. Is this the box that a few of you are still saying could do with an upgrade?
Also for insurance reasons I think ideally I would like a standard model with no mods (other than security) to keep costs down.
Anyone recommend any Lotus Garages down South (I am in Winchester, Hants) I plan on a Visit to Adrian Blith.
I'm sorry for my ignorance but this short shift gear box thing - I found a few reviews that said the new 111s (say 2004 time) came with a new close ratio gearbox. Clarkson reviewed a green one on top gear. Is this the box that a few of you are still saying could do with an upgrade?
Also for insurance reasons I think ideally I would like a standard model with no mods (other than security) to keep costs down.
Anyone recommend any Lotus Garages down South (I am in Winchester, Hants) I plan on a Visit to Adrian Blith.
As far as I'm aware it's the same gearbox in the 111s since it was introduced in 2002. They may have actually fitted the short shifter & improved linkage as standard on the 03/04 models.
From 03 onwards they included touring packs, insulated sotftops, central locking & central gear column is also slightly different (has a leather gaitor) so they may well of put the improved linkage on them.
As for dealers, Bell and Colvill will be quite near (about an hour away). They're not cheap but very good & sometimes its worth paying a bit more to get a well sorted motor & know that any problems with it they'll fix it no questions asked during its warranty.
I got mine from them & no complaints. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad word against them (apart from their servicing charges
)
Getting a 111s serviced is also very cheap, around 180quid for an A service from a decent independent who'll also stamp the log book (Lipscomb & Fibreglass services both very good).
Insurance shouldn't be too much. I'm 30yrs old, paying 480 a year for an s2 111s with sports exhaust (you should also get one of these, makes it more fun & looks a lot better than the pea shooters that it comes with as standard) & I've got 6 points.
Try Chris Knott, Adrian Flux and A-Plan for good quotes (look them up on google). I think you'll be pleasantly suprised how cheap it can be.
From 03 onwards they included touring packs, insulated sotftops, central locking & central gear column is also slightly different (has a leather gaitor) so they may well of put the improved linkage on them.
As for dealers, Bell and Colvill will be quite near (about an hour away). They're not cheap but very good & sometimes its worth paying a bit more to get a well sorted motor & know that any problems with it they'll fix it no questions asked during its warranty.
I got mine from them & no complaints. You'd be hard pressed to find a bad word against them (apart from their servicing charges
)Getting a 111s serviced is also very cheap, around 180quid for an A service from a decent independent who'll also stamp the log book (Lipscomb & Fibreglass services both very good).
Insurance shouldn't be too much. I'm 30yrs old, paying 480 a year for an s2 111s with sports exhaust (you should also get one of these, makes it more fun & looks a lot better than the pea shooters that it comes with as standard) & I've got 6 points.
Try Chris Knott, Adrian Flux and A-Plan for good quotes (look them up on google). I think you'll be pleasantly suprised how cheap it can be.
Edited by jb111s on Friday 18th April 11:08
hbaumhardt said:
The 111S has better power to weight so accelerates faster to 90 where the extra bhp of the 111R takes over to help overcome drag.
Uhm. No. Unless you somehow drive them without a driver, but even then, a 111R will have a better power to weight.111S 750kg (extremely optimistic - most 111S are slightly over 800kg) / 160bhp = 213bhp per tonne
111R 875kg (quite realistic) / 189bhp = 216bhp per tonne
Once you add a driver to both (75kg) and you end up with an even better power to weight than in the 111S. Not that that's a definite messure of acceleration though - gearing is another important factor there which makes both cars more or less even. The 111S is definately easier to drive though (thanks to the linear power delivery).
jb111s said:
From 03 onwards they included touring packs, insulated sotftops, central locking & central gear column is also slightly different (has a leather gaitor) so they may well of put the improved linkage on them.[/footnote]
I'm fairly sure that some of that got added to the 111s with the 2004MY cars. I have a 2003 111s (a 03 reg) and it doesn't have central locking or electric windows: 2004MY cars do...Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff