Britsports 2009
Discussion
An open letter to discuss the future of Prototype Sportscar racing in the UK.
Prototype Sportscar racing in the UK is a niche market with currently only a limited number of participants. There are however, a large number of rolling chassis and complete, race ready cars in the country from many classes including LMP1, LMP2, LMP900, LMP675, FIA SR1, FIA SR2 and specials such as Jade and Juno V6’s. One must assume that given the right place to race the owners of these cars would love to get them out onto the track in a competitive environment.
The reducing numbers in the Britsports Championship has shown that an open set of regulations allowing all cars to compete in their current specification is not the way forward and the success of the VdeV and Sports 2000 series shows that a tightly controlled engine formula with an open chassis is the preferred option of many.
To that effect Britcar Ltd. are proposing a similar style of sports prototype racing using existing chassis and bespoke cars running to a standard weight and with a controlled, sealed engine and ECU.
Our proposal is to use a medium to large displacement engine in a standard tune with a sealed ECU, tuned intake and dry sump which can be bought off the shelf for around £7k and producing 300+bhp. As the engine is in a standard road spec it will be relatively unstressed so should run for in excess of 40 hours, i.e. one season of endurance races, without need of a refresh. Rebuild costs will be extremely cheap as there will be no ‘race’ parts and a ready supply will be available from the chosen manufacturer. Engines currently being considered are Ford and Chrysler V6’s and a Ford V8.
Chassis will be balanced by means of weight with bespoke chassis running to a set weight and more advanced second hand chassis such as LMP or FIA SR1/2 chassis given surplus weight to balance the lap times. Due to the cars having less hp they will have slower lap times but this will allow them to have a straight race with GT2 and GT3 cars.
Discussions with manufacturers has shown that bespoke cars could be produced for around £45k and would be tubular steel spaceframe chassis with components designed for strength and longevity with an excellent driver protection cell and weighing in at around 750kg.
We are putting this proposal out to gauge the response from competitors, owners and manufacturers of prototype Sportscars and invite a response in this discussion forum.
Thank you for taking the time to read the proposal, we look forward to hearing your views and engaging in the discussion for the benefit of the future of prototype Sportscar racing in the UK.
Sportingly
James Tucker
Prototype Sportscar racing in the UK is a niche market with currently only a limited number of participants. There are however, a large number of rolling chassis and complete, race ready cars in the country from many classes including LMP1, LMP2, LMP900, LMP675, FIA SR1, FIA SR2 and specials such as Jade and Juno V6’s. One must assume that given the right place to race the owners of these cars would love to get them out onto the track in a competitive environment.
The reducing numbers in the Britsports Championship has shown that an open set of regulations allowing all cars to compete in their current specification is not the way forward and the success of the VdeV and Sports 2000 series shows that a tightly controlled engine formula with an open chassis is the preferred option of many.
To that effect Britcar Ltd. are proposing a similar style of sports prototype racing using existing chassis and bespoke cars running to a standard weight and with a controlled, sealed engine and ECU.
Our proposal is to use a medium to large displacement engine in a standard tune with a sealed ECU, tuned intake and dry sump which can be bought off the shelf for around £7k and producing 300+bhp. As the engine is in a standard road spec it will be relatively unstressed so should run for in excess of 40 hours, i.e. one season of endurance races, without need of a refresh. Rebuild costs will be extremely cheap as there will be no ‘race’ parts and a ready supply will be available from the chosen manufacturer. Engines currently being considered are Ford and Chrysler V6’s and a Ford V8.
Chassis will be balanced by means of weight with bespoke chassis running to a set weight and more advanced second hand chassis such as LMP or FIA SR1/2 chassis given surplus weight to balance the lap times. Due to the cars having less hp they will have slower lap times but this will allow them to have a straight race with GT2 and GT3 cars.
Discussions with manufacturers has shown that bespoke cars could be produced for around £45k and would be tubular steel spaceframe chassis with components designed for strength and longevity with an excellent driver protection cell and weighing in at around 750kg.
We are putting this proposal out to gauge the response from competitors, owners and manufacturers of prototype Sportscars and invite a response in this discussion forum.
Thank you for taking the time to read the proposal, we look forward to hearing your views and engaging in the discussion for the benefit of the future of prototype Sportscar racing in the UK.
Sportingly
James Tucker
Primarily cost.
The cars would an all in purchase price of c45k as a turn-key, ready to run machine, the cars are designed for strength, longevity and easy of maintenance keeping the costs considerably lower and the c7k total engine cost keeps rebuild costs to a much reduced amount.
If you were to run your own chassis the engine and gearbox will be cheaper, and potentially more reliable than the chassis' original high stress fitment, due to being a low stressed road based unit reducing the overall cost-per-hour of running the car.
Sportscar racing can be extremely expensive as we all know and by proposing to keep the lid on some of the big costs from the outset there should be a positive effect of grid sizes in the long term.
Ideally this should complement VdeV and Radical series as it offers a different performance level to help the career drivers progress up to LMP racing.
The cars would an all in purchase price of c45k as a turn-key, ready to run machine, the cars are designed for strength, longevity and easy of maintenance keeping the costs considerably lower and the c7k total engine cost keeps rebuild costs to a much reduced amount.
If you were to run your own chassis the engine and gearbox will be cheaper, and potentially more reliable than the chassis' original high stress fitment, due to being a low stressed road based unit reducing the overall cost-per-hour of running the car.
Sportscar racing can be extremely expensive as we all know and by proposing to keep the lid on some of the big costs from the outset there should be a positive effect of grid sizes in the long term.
Ideally this should complement VdeV and Radical series as it offers a different performance level to help the career drivers progress up to LMP racing.
Hmmm, one of the manufacturers was quoted in last weeks Autosport as saying that he didn't think that a chassis could be built for less than £65K. The market for Sports Prtotype racing in the UK just doesn't seem to be there in massive numbers and those that want to do it already have VdeV and Radicals etc to race in. It seems to be a very niche market & VdeV just pipped Britcar to the market but that's life.
If Britcar really want a third endurance stream then I think that they should consider a different angle and have a series of, say, 100 minute races for Caterham, Westfield and Ariel Atom type cars. This is a market (for endurance events, anyway) that is not been serviced and yet there are already hundereds of suitable cars out there. The advantages are low cost, existing cars, you may introduce a whole new constituency to the concept of endurance racing, and probably close racing. The only disadvantage that I can see is that it may not quite fit the Britcar image but I still think that its better to try this than have just 5 Britsports cars droning round.
If Britcar really want a third endurance stream then I think that they should consider a different angle and have a series of, say, 100 minute races for Caterham, Westfield and Ariel Atom type cars. This is a market (for endurance events, anyway) that is not been serviced and yet there are already hundereds of suitable cars out there. The advantages are low cost, existing cars, you may introduce a whole new constituency to the concept of endurance racing, and probably close racing. The only disadvantage that I can see is that it may not quite fit the Britcar image but I still think that its better to try this than have just 5 Britsports cars droning round.
So something pretty similar to the old “JCC Centurion Endurance Series” which ended about five years ago? Not quite sure why that collapsed but probably related to high entry fees / running costs and rule tampering. I expect that you’d get zero support from Caterham / Westfield – who will concentrate on their own series. And you’d also have to provide excellent value for money – got to compete with numerous Sports / Saloon series that are run across the country.
The wear and tear of endurance racing shouldn’t be underestimated, hence you need to focus on the seriously rich racer market (the GT Cup, VdeV, Radicals, Ginetta G50s, top caterhams being the competitors). Unless it’s an absolute bargain (£300 for an hour race??) then I don’t think you’ll attract many caterham / Westfield / Ariel / lotus racers.
The wear and tear of endurance racing shouldn’t be underestimated, hence you need to focus on the seriously rich racer market (the GT Cup, VdeV, Radicals, Ginetta G50s, top caterhams being the competitors). Unless it’s an absolute bargain (£300 for an hour race??) then I don’t think you’ll attract many caterham / Westfield / Ariel / lotus racers.
Fair enough, Dan, but you might as well try it - Britsports is dead if MN (today, 23 Apr) is to be believed and whilst Britcar is doing well the Production S1 Grid wasn't exactly overflowing at Snett was it? So, the Britcar field are effectively paying the vast majority of the circuit hire fee; might be time to open up the rest of day to other guest championships from the popular "ususal suspects" - Sports 2000, Minis, F Ford, "Swinging Sixties" etc - probably too late to change things for the rest of this year, though.
Alternatively could the Britsports cars be included in the main Britcar race alongside Class 1 & 2 whilst Class 3 & 4 merge with Production S1 for their own race?
Alternatively could the Britsports cars be included in the main Britcar race alongside Class 1 & 2 whilst Class 3 & 4 merge with Production S1 for their own race?
Without going into detail (of which I’m not overly interested) the success of the Britcar concept does surprise me. Entry fees must be massive and as you rightly point out it’s just a few cars funding the circuit hire and also running the club (I presume its run for profit and not fun?). Britcar must desperately need decent support races, otherwise surely it will fail to maintain its independence.
Didn’t VdeV originally run in Europe with combined prototype and GT grids? I recall that it got split because of incidents between the different cars. But I may be wrong.
Many more cars needed, but I don’t believe there can be many more endurance racers out there. But then I was very surprised at the MSVR GT Cup grid – where did they all come from! MSVR are slowly becoming quite a force as a race organiser, but that’s a different thread.
Didn’t VdeV originally run in Europe with combined prototype and GT grids? I recall that it got split because of incidents between the different cars. But I may be wrong.
Many more cars needed, but I don’t believe there can be many more endurance racers out there. But then I was very surprised at the MSVR GT Cup grid – where did they all come from! MSVR are slowly becoming quite a force as a race organiser, but that’s a different thread.
VdeV in Europe did used to be mixed,the reason they parted was due to the vast amount of prototypes on the grid.There were more than enough prototypes and gt cars to run separate races,there were some incidents but considering the size of the grids they were very minimal!The reason VdeV works is the set regs,proper endurance races,the professionalism and organisation all of which are top draw.
It's a shame Britsports has been canned but I simply can't see how this new format James is talking about will work,it's not that easy to dump another engine into the back of a car that it's not designed for,also if these cars are already out there then surely they could race in britsports in there current state anyway but they aren't,surely the expense of changing the engine is only going to put them off competing further.
I also can't see why manufacturers would design a car around it when it will pretty much only be able to run in britsports,castle combe gt's or libre classes.You only need to look at the manufacturers of VdeV cars to see where the money is,Norma, Pilbeam and radical(all done le-mans)ligier(f1)chiron and juno who will probably end up doing le-mans at some stage.They can also be raced in a multitude of championships apart from VdeV.
It's a shame Britsports has been canned but I simply can't see how this new format James is talking about will work,it's not that easy to dump another engine into the back of a car that it's not designed for,also if these cars are already out there then surely they could race in britsports in there current state anyway but they aren't,surely the expense of changing the engine is only going to put them off competing further.
I also can't see why manufacturers would design a car around it when it will pretty much only be able to run in britsports,castle combe gt's or libre classes.You only need to look at the manufacturers of VdeV cars to see where the money is,Norma, Pilbeam and radical(all done le-mans)ligier(f1)chiron and juno who will probably end up doing le-mans at some stage.They can also be raced in a multitude of championships apart from VdeV.
I can see that Britsports needs to do something going forward , but 7K for 300BHP? I've spent 20K+ putting a second hand engine(Swindon) in to do Britsports and half of that was ancillaries cooling, chassis mods etc so you could reasonably assume you would be asking another 10-15K on top of the figures excluding any higher spec chassis build items, So why do all this just to do Britsports when as Mat says you could be in VdeV for similar money. Also do the proposals allow for existing cars such as ex-supersports, vdev to race as well or are they out on the basis of current grid levels?
It will be interesting to see how many cars turn up for the MSVR grid.
regards
Morgan
It will be interesting to see how many cars turn up for the MSVR grid.
regards
Morgan
Britsports was open to any type of sports prototype be it an LMP car or a National Supersports ad anything in between.
As for running them alongside the Britcars in the Britcar race, this has been discussed but the MSA would severley limit the available grid size and as Britcar is currently oversubscribed this would prove financially counter productive.
As for running them alongside the Britcars in the Britcar race, this has been discussed but the MSA would severley limit the available grid size and as Britcar is currently oversubscribed this would prove financially counter productive.
Get the price right and the entries will come......
Same problem for potential Britcar Class 3 and 4 entrants and PS1.....
Hopefully JT will sort it for next year or maybe some other organiser will see the gap opening in the market.
According to my calculations...1 minute race time at BH Indy in June and Silverstone Int. is £13.65, 4hour Snett £8.09, PS1 arround £9.98 for all 50 min. races.
Now Classic Sports Car Club 40 min races are £6.75 per min.
Regards, Don.
Same problem for potential Britcar Class 3 and 4 entrants and PS1.....
Hopefully JT will sort it for next year or maybe some other organiser will see the gap opening in the market.
According to my calculations...1 minute race time at BH Indy in June and Silverstone Int. is £13.65, 4hour Snett £8.09, PS1 arround £9.98 for all 50 min. races.
Now Classic Sports Car Club 40 min races are £6.75 per min.
Regards, Don.
don kalmar union said:
Get the price right and the entries will come......
Same problem for potential Britcar Class 3 and 4 entrants and PS1.....
Hopefully JT will sort it for next year or maybe some other organiser will see the gap opening in the market.
According to my calculations...1 minute race time at BH Indy in June and Silverstone Int. is £13.65, 4hour Snett £8.09, PS1 arround £9.98 for all 50 min. races.
Now Classic Sports Car Club 40 min races are £6.75 per min.
Regards, Don.
PS. To edit this post as my per minute figures for the EERC run events do not take into account the practice time included in the entry fee, whereas the CSCC does....so that will narrow the pricing gap slightly....but not that much.....nevertheless a mistake on my part. Same problem for potential Britcar Class 3 and 4 entrants and PS1.....
Hopefully JT will sort it for next year or maybe some other organiser will see the gap opening in the market.
According to my calculations...1 minute race time at BH Indy in June and Silverstone Int. is £13.65, 4hour Snett £8.09, PS1 arround £9.98 for all 50 min. races.
Now Classic Sports Car Club 40 min races are £6.75 per min.
Regards, Don.
My feeling being that if there can be a return to the slightly less grand style of Britcar for a separate series, maybe run at other meetings, as in the past few years then many participants would return. An advantage being that if only one long race per event was in the programme there would be no need for teams to vacate garages.
There is clearly a substantial number of well funded teams willing and able to participate in the NEW BRITCAR....but this does appear to leave the day's other events a bit thinner than must be good for the organiser's finances...however maybe the Britcar teams will not flinch at digging further into their pockets to balance things up a bit....
Just to ammend my previous post....before someone calls me on my calculations, I have ommitted to take the EERC run events' practice time included in their entry fees into account, so that will narrow the gap just a bit.
However, it still does not detract from the point that there seems to be a gap appearing for an organiser to step in and run a series in a style less grand than New Britcar, where there is now a fair number of very well funded teams able to participate in Classes 1 and 2 and substantially fill the grids. Maybe the well funded teams would be prepared to pay even more.......
The advantage of another series, maybe run at other events to allow longer race participants to retain the garage space for the day, would be that those few spectators that turn up would not have an overdose of long races in their day's entertainment and that a 'low rent' series would not be contributing to the costly hospitality and TV coverage beloved of the grand teams, their owners and sponsors. Overall, a return to the well supported Old Britcar.
Don.
EDIT again....some sort of double post b
ks here.....repeating myself or what.
However, it still does not detract from the point that there seems to be a gap appearing for an organiser to step in and run a series in a style less grand than New Britcar, where there is now a fair number of very well funded teams able to participate in Classes 1 and 2 and substantially fill the grids. Maybe the well funded teams would be prepared to pay even more.......
The advantage of another series, maybe run at other events to allow longer race participants to retain the garage space for the day, would be that those few spectators that turn up would not have an overdose of long races in their day's entertainment and that a 'low rent' series would not be contributing to the costly hospitality and TV coverage beloved of the grand teams, their owners and sponsors. Overall, a return to the well supported Old Britcar.
Don.
EDIT again....some sort of double post b
ks here.....repeating myself or what.Edited by don kalmar union on Tuesday 6th May 15:41
Some quick cost per minute calculations including all test and practice time included in the entry fee for 2008 races (data compiled pre-season).
Britsports/PS1 50min+30min Q £6.59/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 2 x 50min+30min Q £7.33/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 Spa 4hr +30min Q £4.63/min
Britsports/PS1 races often have additional practice or warm up time advised in the final timetable which has not been included in these figures.
VdeV Snetterton 6hr+60min Q £4.57/min
VdeV Brands Hatch 3hr+60min Q £8.12/min
VdeV Silverstone 3hr+60min Q £7.50/min
CSCC 40min+30min Q £4.29/min
So the price is right for the race meetings in comparison to the competition. The CSCC meetings are considerably cheaper but tend to run at smaller venues.
Britsports/PS1 50min+30min Q £6.59/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 2 x 50min+30min Q £7.33/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 Spa 4hr +30min Q £4.63/min
Britsports/PS1 races often have additional practice or warm up time advised in the final timetable which has not been included in these figures.
VdeV Snetterton 6hr+60min Q £4.57/min
VdeV Brands Hatch 3hr+60min Q £8.12/min
VdeV Silverstone 3hr+60min Q £7.50/min
CSCC 40min+30min Q £4.29/min
So the price is right for the race meetings in comparison to the competition. The CSCC meetings are considerably cheaper but tend to run at smaller venues.
Britcar David said:
Some quick cost per minute calculations including all test and practice time included in the entry fee for 2008 races (data compiled pre-season).
Britsports/PS1 50min+30min Q £6.59/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 2 x 50min+30min Q £7.33/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 Spa 4hr +30min Q £4.63/min
Britsports/PS1 races often have additional practice or warm up time advised in the final timetable which has not been included in these figures.
VdeV Snetterton 6hr+60min Q £4.57/min
VdeV Brands Hatch 3hr+60min Q £8.12/min
VdeV Silverstone 3hr+60min Q £7.50/min
CSCC 40min+30min Q £4.29/min
So the price is right for the race meetings in comparison to the competition. The CSCC meetings are considerably cheaper but tend to run at smaller venues.
Well, CSCC does not cater for Britsports/ VdeV type machinery but the CSCC does get a couple of PS1 cars that come out to play in its "Tin Tops" events too (and usually win), so that comparison is valid (but there are bigger grids in CSCC "Tin Tops"! Albeit there are classes for smaller engined cars and not such big cheque books generally needed).Britsports/PS1 50min+30min Q £6.59/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 2 x 50min+30min Q £7.33/min (Including exclusive test day at £360+VAT)
Britsports/PS1 Spa 4hr +30min Q £4.63/min
Britsports/PS1 races often have additional practice or warm up time advised in the final timetable which has not been included in these figures.
VdeV Snetterton 6hr+60min Q £4.57/min
VdeV Brands Hatch 3hr+60min Q £8.12/min
VdeV Silverstone 3hr+60min Q £7.50/min
CSCC 40min+30min Q £4.29/min
So the price is right for the race meetings in comparison to the competition. The CSCC meetings are considerably cheaper but tend to run at smaller venues.
As for smaller venues, Brands (Indy), Snetterton, Oulton Park (Full cct) & Silverstone Internaional aren't really smaller venues and most people love the opportunity to race at places like Cadwell. Crikey, CSCC even had Formula Palmer Audi supporting it at Oulton last year. The Tin Tops cars had the garages (as always) whilst JP and Co were out in their tent in the paddock car park! And JP was so impressed by the overall show that he even asked the CSCC ("Swinging Sixties" grid) to support the WTCC round at Brands in June.
In reality I don't think we are judging like with like but no need to denigrate CSCC by suggesting it runs at smaller venues.
Sorry Andy, no disrespect intended, you are quite right in what you say, my misguided comment was ment to be along the lines of the CSCC also holding race meetings at tracks outside of the big venues such as Silverstone, Brands, Snett and Oulton which Britcar currently do not.
The CSCC do a great job and have good grids but as you mentioned they are for the most part catering to a differant customer though there is some cross over with the PS1 field which was the reason for their inclusion.
The CSCC do a great job and have good grids but as you mentioned they are for the most part catering to a differant customer though there is some cross over with the PS1 field which was the reason for their inclusion.
No problem David. CSCC "Tin Tops" is certainly a bit more "clubby" than PS1 (and none the worse for that) and therefore appeals to a slightly different audience but the comparison in costs (£ per minute) between a "Tin Tops" race and PS1 is interesting because I would have thought that CSCC's costs for puting on a meeting at, say, Snetterton were very similar to Britcars.
BTW, perhaps Britcar should consider a race at Anglesey, too. I've not been to the new circuit configuration yet but I understands its awesome. Nah, too far from London, I guess! LOL!
BTW, perhaps Britcar should consider a race at Anglesey, too. I've not been to the new circuit configuration yet but I understands its awesome. Nah, too far from London, I guess! LOL!
Edited by andy97 on Wednesday 7th May 15:38
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