GAZ Adjustable Coil Overs
Discussion
They aren't the most popular choice for the Elise although I've no personal experience of them. The most popular choices are S2 Bilsteins and single way adjustable Nitrons. The new Nitron Racing Reds (half the price of the adjustables) are also getting good reviews. Have a look at what Eliseparts and Eliseshop sell. A couple of peeps on here are using Protech adjustables and rate them well.
A big thumbs up for Gaz from me too. Got them on my Exige. Excellent value and performance. Wouldn't take too much notice on the seloc forum. They are all biased towards nitron because a lot of them are distributors and friends of nitron/ racing reds. Would only take comments seriously from people who have actually used Gaz on their Lotus (like stewpot on project bumble).
ryan-isla said:
A big thumbs up for Gaz from me too. Got them on my Exige. Excellent value and performance. Wouldn't take too much notice on the seloc forum. They are all biased towards nitron because a lot of them are distributors and friends of nitron/ racing reds. Would only take comments seriously from people who have actually used Gaz on their Lotus (like stewpot on project bumble).
I'd take issue with that. Firstly there are actually only a few on Seloc (from a far bigger constituency than the PH Lotus forum) that actually distribute Nitrons and secondly they are all active Elise owners and/or racers. Given that they choose to resell Nitrons (nobody can force you to be a distributor!) and not other marques, and that they are particularly quick on track then surely it make sense to benefit from their research, development and expertise. How many of the other manufacturers mentioned actually campaign cars themslves or via resellers?With the greatest respect to Stewpot (I am deeply impressed by his efforts to get on track), he is sponsored by Gaz and could hardly be said to be at the front of the field.
DAFL Tipper. Anyone who dismisses Nitrons or Ohlins because they think there's some big conspiracy on the go wants their head read. There are very good reasons that many, many successful racers recommend these products. Do you think if Lotus thought that GAZ dampers were better than Ohlins, they'd continue to fit Ohlins to their cars? And who exactly are the ride and handling guru's that many, many car companies go to to help refine the suspension components on their vehicles?
Pfft.
Pfft.
I'm sure Gaz are fine but Nitrons and Ohlins are going to be in a different league and even more so on track.
They also benefit from being fully re-buildable and hold their value very well in the second hand market.
I'm also completely biased bacause I have them om my S1 Exige, but they are the nuts.
They also benefit from being fully re-buildable and hold their value very well in the second hand market.
I'm also completely biased bacause I have them om my S1 Exige, but they are the nuts.
Finding someone who knows what they are talking about and has tried cars fitted with both GAZ and Nitrons is the key. I'm sure if I fitted Nitrons at 1K plus in place of the clunky Konis,I'd say they are the dogs swingers. Lets hear from someone who has tried both - ideally where they are fitted and set-up both, rather than tried a car where you have no idea is the dampers and springs have been set-up ok.
Edited by Mr_B on Monday 21st April 08:01
jamwill79 said:
I'm sure Gaz are fine but Nitrons and Ohlins are going to be in a different league and even more so on track.
They also benefit from being fully re-buildable and hold their value very well in the second hand market.
I'm also completely biased bacause I have them om my S1 Exige, but they are the nuts.
Does anyone know whether the Nitron Racing Reds are fully re-buildable? I'm going to start doing some research on them as possibly considering as a replacement for the S2 Bilsteins. For the cost I think they'd be a worthwhile consideration, especially for my intended usage - mainly road with occasional track use. Not sure if I'd benefit from the one-way adjustable Nitrons. What do others think? They also benefit from being fully re-buildable and hold their value very well in the second hand market.
I'm also completely biased bacause I have them om my S1 Exige, but they are the nuts.
If I were to go down the Honda route eventually, are the Racing Reds suitable as I notice Eliseparts say for K series only, or do they mean because of the different subframe of the Toyota engine S2's?
I can't comment on what it will do to your vehicle from track expereience, but I can speak on a well informed basis on some of the dampers in question as a damper engineer.
This may help your decision. (It also may not!)
I'm sure all of the dampers in question will work, and will all damp the springs consistently in normal road conditions. On a track you may find that they get very hot after a while, and that's when the materials used and specifically the type of oil used gets important.
As the damper heats up, the viscosity of the oil changes. If the dampers have a semi or fully-synthetic oil they are probably more likely to maintain the correct viscosity giving you a constant damping rate when hot and cold. (I say probably, as if you have the wrong additives in your oil it is possible to make the temp Vs viscosity variation characterisitics worse)
In simple terms, you can go out on track with stiff dampers, and after they heat up the oil gets 'thinner' and passes through the valves with less resistance, giving you 'softer' damping. (Back to the pits and crank them up a couple of notches)
You may consider how well your dampers are cooled in you find this on the track. Any dampers fitted with cooling fins will help maintain a steady temperature and hence viscosity. (fitting them in is the problem)
Beyond the oil, the next most critical components are the valves. The different manufacturers use different designs of valving and different materials. All of these work so unless you're doing Le Mans I wouldn't worry too much. The biggest issue with the valves is the materials used. It's very easy to save a bit of money in the manufacture by using cheap valve springs. Cheap valve springs will lose their 'spring' faster so you might notice a reduction in dampoing force over a long period. This effect won't be noticable over a track day, but may be over a year or two so if you want them to last make sure they use the best materials available.
Finally of critical importance are the piston rod and piston rod seal. The seal keeps the oil in the damper so a cheap one isn't a good place to save money. Many different types of material are available, and some manufacturers have developed the seal material more than others.
The chrome plated piston rod must have good chrome, as if it deteriotates any corrosion on the surface will damage the seal and you'll lose your oil.
I can tell you that GAZ shocks use a design that is tried and tested, but not technologically advanced. The valve design is the same as used by AVO and is also used PROTECH shocks as all companies have had the same designer.
Said designer now works at PROTECH and I know their design has been further developed by someone who knows his stuff.
I know AVO had a lot of quality problems a few years back, and I have seen dampers leaking oil before being fitted to a vehicle.
I also know GAZ use 'cost effective' parts where possible, sometimes at the detriment of their product quality (re above). They are making a lot of dampers and perhaps their focus is on quantity rather than quality. I know many people use them and have no problems as tehy do use a tried and tested dsign, but I would spend my money elsewhere as for the cost you should be getting better materials.
PROTECH are a better quality damper and use better quality materials. The design and quality is not as advanced as some of teh larger European manufacturers such as Koni, ZF Sachs Boge or Ohlins, but value wise you're getting what you pay for.
If you want to know about adjustability ask away.(1 way, 2 way, 3 way, blow off's, etc) Or about final factory testing of dampers and 'out of the box' charactersitcs. That's a whole new can of worms....
I hope that helps......
This may help your decision. (It also may not!)
I'm sure all of the dampers in question will work, and will all damp the springs consistently in normal road conditions. On a track you may find that they get very hot after a while, and that's when the materials used and specifically the type of oil used gets important.
As the damper heats up, the viscosity of the oil changes. If the dampers have a semi or fully-synthetic oil they are probably more likely to maintain the correct viscosity giving you a constant damping rate when hot and cold. (I say probably, as if you have the wrong additives in your oil it is possible to make the temp Vs viscosity variation characterisitics worse)
In simple terms, you can go out on track with stiff dampers, and after they heat up the oil gets 'thinner' and passes through the valves with less resistance, giving you 'softer' damping. (Back to the pits and crank them up a couple of notches)
You may consider how well your dampers are cooled in you find this on the track. Any dampers fitted with cooling fins will help maintain a steady temperature and hence viscosity. (fitting them in is the problem)
Beyond the oil, the next most critical components are the valves. The different manufacturers use different designs of valving and different materials. All of these work so unless you're doing Le Mans I wouldn't worry too much. The biggest issue with the valves is the materials used. It's very easy to save a bit of money in the manufacture by using cheap valve springs. Cheap valve springs will lose their 'spring' faster so you might notice a reduction in dampoing force over a long period. This effect won't be noticable over a track day, but may be over a year or two so if you want them to last make sure they use the best materials available.
Finally of critical importance are the piston rod and piston rod seal. The seal keeps the oil in the damper so a cheap one isn't a good place to save money. Many different types of material are available, and some manufacturers have developed the seal material more than others.
The chrome plated piston rod must have good chrome, as if it deteriotates any corrosion on the surface will damage the seal and you'll lose your oil.
I can tell you that GAZ shocks use a design that is tried and tested, but not technologically advanced. The valve design is the same as used by AVO and is also used PROTECH shocks as all companies have had the same designer.
Said designer now works at PROTECH and I know their design has been further developed by someone who knows his stuff.
I know AVO had a lot of quality problems a few years back, and I have seen dampers leaking oil before being fitted to a vehicle.
I also know GAZ use 'cost effective' parts where possible, sometimes at the detriment of their product quality (re above). They are making a lot of dampers and perhaps their focus is on quantity rather than quality. I know many people use them and have no problems as tehy do use a tried and tested dsign, but I would spend my money elsewhere as for the cost you should be getting better materials.
PROTECH are a better quality damper and use better quality materials. The design and quality is not as advanced as some of teh larger European manufacturers such as Koni, ZF Sachs Boge or Ohlins, but value wise you're getting what you pay for.
If you want to know about adjustability ask away.(1 way, 2 way, 3 way, blow off's, etc) Or about final factory testing of dampers and 'out of the box' charactersitcs. That's a whole new can of worms....
I hope that helps......
Stinkysteve
thanks for the info, very useful. I have also done a fiar bit of damper testing (in my youth) and I have found that unless you control the tolerances during manufacture and build you can have quite different damping characteristics between dampers. I.e. 1 click stiffer on the left rear would be equivalent to 2 clicks on the right rear which is a bloody pain to take into account unless you are going to setup the dampers on the dyno. On racing dampers this problem is pretty much sorted but not sure how the aftermarket dampers fair in this respect.
Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is. Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
cheers
C
thanks for the info, very useful. I have also done a fiar bit of damper testing (in my youth) and I have found that unless you control the tolerances during manufacture and build you can have quite different damping characteristics between dampers. I.e. 1 click stiffer on the left rear would be equivalent to 2 clicks on the right rear which is a bloody pain to take into account unless you are going to setup the dampers on the dyno. On racing dampers this problem is pretty much sorted but not sure how the aftermarket dampers fair in this respect.
Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is. Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
cheers
C
C43 said:
you can have quite different damping characteristics between dampers. I.e. 1 click stiffer on the left rear would be equivalent to 2 clicks on the right rear
I took 4 dampers of a ginetta and tested thme on a rig. Put all to minimum set, there was a 15% variation. Put all to 6 clicks, 10% variation ( and not in the same ways). Put all to maximum (13 clicks) and a 20% variation. (approx percentages) Scary!!!!
Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is.
This is key and a bloody good point! as you want the lowest un-sprung/damped weight possible on each corner.Most aftermarket damper are aluminium bodied, PROTECH are for certain. Clearly don't buy steel bodied dampers!
Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
The firction on the seal is negligible compared to the damping force of the hydraulics in the valves. IF a damper is overtightened when built or overhauled, you can stop any passage of oil onto the seal. Note a small amount of oil (very small!) is designed to weep out to lubricate the seal. If you don't have the lubrication, and hence high friction, teh seal ill overheat, tear apart and catastrophic oil loss ensues.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
C
I took 4 dampers of a ginetta and tested thme on a rig. Put all to minimum set, there was a 15% variation. Put all to 6 clicks, 10% variation ( and not in the same ways). Put all to maximum (13 clicks) and a 20% variation. (approx percentages) Scary!!!!Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is.
This is key and a bloody good point! as you want the lowest un-sprung/damped weight possible on each corner.Most aftermarket damper are aluminium bodied, PROTECH are for certain. Clearly don't buy steel bodied dampers!
Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
The firction on the seal is negligible compared to the damping force of the hydraulics in the valves. IF a damper is overtightened when built or overhauled, you can stop any passage of oil onto the seal. Note a small amount of oil (very small!) is designed to weep out to lubricate the seal. If you don't have the lubrication, and hence high friction, teh seal ill overheat, tear apart and catastrophic oil loss ensues.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
C
[quote=C43]Stinkysteve
thanks for the info, very useful. I have also done a fiar bit of damper testing (in my youth) and I have found that unless you control the tolerances during manufacture and build you can have quite different damping characteristics between dampers. I.e. 1 click stiffer on the left rear would be equivalent to 2 clicks on the right rear which is a bloody pain to take into account unless you are going to setup the dampers on the dyno. On racing dampers this problem is pretty much sorted but not sure how the aftermarket dampers fair in this respect.
Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is. Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
cheers
Where did you hear Gaz use cost effective components, cheap springs, seals etc ? Protech use as stated on their website 6262 specification aluminium which is low tensile, low strength and Gaz use high tensile aluminium which is stronger than steel. And just for your information nitron are a high spec. light weight aluminium damper made in Taiwan.
thanks for the info, very useful. I have also done a fiar bit of damper testing (in my youth) and I have found that unless you control the tolerances during manufacture and build you can have quite different damping characteristics between dampers. I.e. 1 click stiffer on the left rear would be equivalent to 2 clicks on the right rear which is a bloody pain to take into account unless you are going to setup the dampers on the dyno. On racing dampers this problem is pretty much sorted but not sure how the aftermarket dampers fair in this respect.
Two other points we should all take into account. firstly the weight of the dampers. I have heard that the Nitrons are bloody heavy but don't know how true this is. Anyone have any experience? Secondly the friction in the damper. Again the piston and seals make a big difference and a reduction in friction is definitely good.
I have an Europa and the only kit I have seen so far is from Nitrons but I would like to know what else is about.
I think that unless you test damper packages on the same car on the same day with the same driver it is always going to be difficult for us to rate them so all we can look at is the basic parameters and how much cash one has to spend!
cheers
Where did you hear Gaz use cost effective components, cheap springs, seals etc ? Protech use as stated on their website 6262 specification aluminium which is low tensile, low strength and Gaz use high tensile aluminium which is stronger than steel. And just for your information nitron are a high spec. light weight aluminium damper made in Taiwan.
ryan-isla said:
C43 said:
Stinkysteve
Where did you hear Gaz use cost effective components, cheap springs, seals etc ? Protech use as stated on their website 6262 specification aluminium which is low tensile, low strength and Gaz use high tensile aluminium which is stronger than steel. And just for your information nitron are a high spec. light weight aluminium damper made in Taiwan.
I've stripped, bench tested and endurance tested each of the dampers I mentioned. My comments on the parts, their materials, design and integrity are first hand.Where did you hear Gaz use cost effective components, cheap springs, seals etc ? Protech use as stated on their website 6262 specification aluminium which is low tensile, low strength and Gaz use high tensile aluminium which is stronger than steel. And just for your information nitron are a high spec. light weight aluminium damper made in Taiwan.
I've never heard of a damper reservior tube failing so the grade of aluminium used is academic, however, I'd be interested to hear what grade of 'High tensile aluminium' you suggest is stronger than 'steel'.
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