Driver and safety aids on TVR's?
Discussion
I want to start the debate! (Sorry if it's been done before).
IMO, ABS should feature on ALL cars. It's the quickest way to stop a car and allows steering control under hard braking. It's also beneficial for other road users - it would help prevent some accidents.
When i get a Griffith 500, i'll be putting traction control on it straight away. I'm not an race driver or expert driver (yet) so would find the system beneficial. Would get Racelogic's full adjustable system, so it could always be turned off. I will, however, get advanced driver tuition and skid control lessons also.
Not bothered about air bags though! A four point harness should eliminate the need for that!
ESP, and all the other gizmo's? Don't know. Never driven a car with them.
What do you think?
IMO, ABS should feature on ALL cars. It's the quickest way to stop a car and allows steering control under hard braking. It's also beneficial for other road users - it would help prevent some accidents.
When i get a Griffith 500, i'll be putting traction control on it straight away. I'm not an race driver or expert driver (yet) so would find the system beneficial. Would get Racelogic's full adjustable system, so it could always be turned off. I will, however, get advanced driver tuition and skid control lessons also.
Not bothered about air bags though! A four point harness should eliminate the need for that!
ESP, and all the other gizmo's? Don't know. Never driven a car with them.
What do you think?
Sorry, but should you not just learn to use your right foot first.
Then think before you drive and take an advance driving course.
TVR's are all about the pure driving experience, no aids. If you drive a TVR, with the full approach of wanting to learn to be a better driver then you will become one.
If on the other hand you want to have aids to save you from situations of your own making, as a car accident only happens when its being driven, please consider getting a Boxter instead and this will leave the the Pure Driving TVR for some one else.
I am not telling you not to, but please think about what you want from a car, if its driver aids then rule out TVR. If you want to be a better driver then go for it and get one, then take out an instructor on the road & track. Far better way to drive safely.
This is just my opinion, and I am sure some will disagree then again some will agree with me.
Colin L
Then think before you drive and take an advance driving course.
TVR's are all about the pure driving experience, no aids. If you drive a TVR, with the full approach of wanting to learn to be a better driver then you will become one.
If on the other hand you want to have aids to save you from situations of your own making, as a car accident only happens when its being driven, please consider getting a Boxter instead and this will leave the the Pure Driving TVR for some one else.
I am not telling you not to, but please think about what you want from a car, if its driver aids then rule out TVR. If you want to be a better driver then go for it and get one, then take out an instructor on the road & track. Far better way to drive safely.
This is just my opinion, and I am sure some will disagree then again some will agree with me.
Colin L
If you want the car driven for you go for the SLK/M3/Boxster.
I have the delightful job of assisting TVR owners to get the best out of themselves and their machines. As a result of being a drivers car, TVR owners tend to be better drivers as they have to be in contact with their cars.
Traction control/ABS etc. takes the thought process away from the driver. BTW ABS does NOT stop a car any quicker. Ask any of the Fulham Fionas who regularly stuffed their Volvo Estates in the early 90s. ABS allows steering whilst braking heavily, but has no beneficial effect on stopping distances.
To drive a TVR well is an all-enveloping experience. Yes, get advanced training, either on-road, or on track, but if you want to rely on machinery doing it for you, TVRs are not for you!
I have the delightful job of assisting TVR owners to get the best out of themselves and their machines. As a result of being a drivers car, TVR owners tend to be better drivers as they have to be in contact with their cars.
Traction control/ABS etc. takes the thought process away from the driver. BTW ABS does NOT stop a car any quicker. Ask any of the Fulham Fionas who regularly stuffed their Volvo Estates in the early 90s. ABS allows steering whilst braking heavily, but has no beneficial effect on stopping distances.
To drive a TVR well is an all-enveloping experience. Yes, get advanced training, either on-road, or on track, but if you want to rely on machinery doing it for you, TVRs are not for you!
todiddly said:
If you want the car driven for you go for the SLK/M3/Boxster.
I have the delightful job of assisting TVR owners to get the best out of themselves and their machines. As a result of being a drivers car, TVR owners tend to be better drivers as they have to be in contact with their cars.
Traction control/ABS etc. takes the thought process away from the driver. BTW ABS does NOT stop a car any quicker. Ask any of the Fulham Fionas who regularly stuffed their Volvo Estates in the early 90s. ABS allows steering whilst braking heavily, but has no beneficial effect on stopping distances.
To drive a TVR well is an all-enveloping experience. Yes, get advanced training, either on-road, or on track, but if you want to rely on machinery doing it for you, TVRs are not for you!
Edited because it's late an' I can't type
>> Edited by yiw1393 on Friday 15th August 23:59
you're totally right. i will be having tuition and skid control sessions straight away. To buy a Griffith, which has been my dream for close to 5 years now, only to smash it due to inexperience would be heart breaking (and expensive).
But i want traction control for the winter. (plus i also want the launch control - i just love gadgets!). I would want to use the car everyday, even on the wettest days.
Obviously TC won't stop you going too fast into a corner, that's where the tuition would come in, but it can take some of the effort out of exiting a corner.
I personally don't see TC and ABS as safety aids. I see them as performance enhancing systems. ABS slows the car in the quickest possible manner, TC accels the car in the quickest possible manner.
I'm of the Playstation generation though (23), so i've grown up with these aids.
But i want traction control for the winter. (plus i also want the launch control - i just love gadgets!). I would want to use the car everyday, even on the wettest days.
Obviously TC won't stop you going too fast into a corner, that's where the tuition would come in, but it can take some of the effort out of exiting a corner.
I personally don't see TC and ABS as safety aids. I see them as performance enhancing systems. ABS slows the car in the quickest possible manner, TC accels the car in the quickest possible manner.
I'm of the Playstation generation though (23), so i've grown up with these aids.
JSR - no offence, but if you can't handle the raw power of a TVR without help (ie ASR and TC) then you shouldn't buy one. In the real world you know when to ease off, when to floor it and if you don't then it's the like of you with more money (or credit) than sense that pushes the insurance premiums up for us that do.
no offence taken.
i will be moving from a Fiesta Zetec-S with 103bhp, up to a Griff with 340bhp. It will also be my only car. i'm not gonna lay it up for winter like some owners.
I've set myself a window for getting a tvr - march to september. so that i don't have to become familiar with the car in the autumn/winter. Realistically, i'm not gonna get one this year, so i will wait til next spring.
Don't misunderstand me, i want to become an expert driver, but it's not gonna happen overnight. I won't be relying on TC, i just think it will be a great gadget to have.
By the way, i can drive! I've driven a Diablo and 360 at track days (dry) so i do know when to back off and feel i do have a fair amount of car control.
I certainly wouldn't push up your insurance premium! Only ever had 1 crash, when a BMW pulled out straight in front of me. no amount of aids or skill could have prevented that.
i will be moving from a Fiesta Zetec-S with 103bhp, up to a Griff with 340bhp. It will also be my only car. i'm not gonna lay it up for winter like some owners.
I've set myself a window for getting a tvr - march to september. so that i don't have to become familiar with the car in the autumn/winter. Realistically, i'm not gonna get one this year, so i will wait til next spring.
Don't misunderstand me, i want to become an expert driver, but it's not gonna happen overnight. I won't be relying on TC, i just think it will be a great gadget to have.
By the way, i can drive! I've driven a Diablo and 360 at track days (dry) so i do know when to back off and feel i do have a fair amount of car control.
I certainly wouldn't push up your insurance premium! Only ever had 1 crash, when a BMW pulled out straight in front of me. no amount of aids or skill could have prevented that.
Fair play to you JSR, get your Griff, Oct to Mar is best time to buy (no sun!) take it out as it is, I'm sure you'll find you need no extras. A TVR is a true driving experience - you just know. Give yourself 2/3 months and I bet all your gismos go out the window (except maybe radar detectors!) And welcome to the all year round TVR drivers club 
i probably wouldn't need the TC. It's only something i've got planned at the moment. I drove the diablo and 360 recently and thought i would find it difficult, but so long as i was smooth with the throttle, everything was fine. only got out of shape at about 120mph in the diablo when i hit the brakes a little to hard 
never having driven a powerful car in the wet, is what is intimidating to me at the moment. needless to say, once i have realised the dream and bought my pride and joy i will be taking it easy while i get used to the car.
have also considered opting for a Chimaera 400 to learn how to drive a powerful RWD car, before upgrading to a 5 litre Griff later on.
never having driven a powerful car in the wet, is what is intimidating to me at the moment. needless to say, once i have realised the dream and bought my pride and joy i will be taking it easy while i get used to the car.
have also considered opting for a Chimaera 400 to learn how to drive a powerful RWD car, before upgrading to a 5 litre Griff later on.
Traction control and ABS won't stop you getting the car sideways, and when it's sideways your best option is usually to lock the brakes. Doing this has saved me from a major shunt on more than one occasion. These driver aids have their uses, but you need to understand they aren't the answer to every problem.
GreenV8S said:
Traction control and ABS won't stop you getting the car sideways, and when it's sideways your best option is usually to lock the brakes. Doing this has saved me from a major shunt on more than one occasion. These driver aids have their uses, but you need to understand they aren't the answer to every problem.
too right.
only things like ASR, DSC, ESP and all the other 3 letter acronyms all together could keep a car in control. i'm certainly not in favour of any of those.
What about Active Suspension? That was incredibly quick when it was allowed in F1. Not supposed to be much good on current Maserati's though
only things like ASR, DSC, ESP and all the other 3 letter acronyms all together could keep a car in control. i'm certainly not in favour of any of those.
What about Active Suspension? That was incredibly quick when it was allowed in F1. Not supposed to be much good on current Maserati's though
jsr said:
IMO, ABS should feature on ALL cars. It's the quickest way to stop a car and allows steering control under hard braking. It's also beneficial for other road users - it would help prevent some accidents.
Nope, common misconception - ABS will actually INCREASE the breaking distance needed. Remember what it does - it releases pressure to prevent the wheels from skidding. However, no matter how "powerful" the computer used to control ABS, it isnt as sophisticated as a brain. You as a trained and educated driver will have a greater capacity to understand the driving conditions, circumstances and control the braking accordingly - much better than some "dumb" computer....
Do you see ABS on race cars? No cos its not as good as a driver at stopping in short distances.
Well...what a lot of TVR owner opinions!
Frankly it almost amounts to "TVR don't fit ABS/Traction therefore they can't be any good/necessary".
Boxster drives itself does it? What sh*te.
ABS retains steering control under heavy braking. It will also apply the MAXIMUM amount of braking effect in a straight line that the road surface can take. That is what it does. Yes - less use on track perhaps. Yes - an inexperienced driver will be saved from a lock up. and YES that is a fcuking good thing on the road.
Sure TVRs don't have it. Doesn't mean its sensible.
Although I 100% absolutely agree that advanced driver training is a must and should avoid the need for ABS I know for damn certain when something unexpected happens I want it on my side and helping.
Traction control: Some systems are crap. Some systems are wonderful. Ask the Porsche boys about PSM and a wet track at Silverstone. Fan-fcuking-tastic thank you very much. Not because I used it all the time - that would demonstrate poor driving, frankly, no - because it helped out once when it would have been a big moment otherwise.
On a road you never want have a big moment. The best way is to have advanced driver training and a proper attitude towards enjoying your motoring. But with a Griff's bhp on tap would I like traction control "in case my foot slips?" you bet.
Open your minds, gentlemen.
I agree with you all that training is the way to go. I do NOT agree that ABS/SM/TC would not be a good thing on a car as powerful as a TVR.
Having said that: since TVR do not and (likely) never will fit these safety aids it is 100% the drivers responsibility to drive 100% within the limits of both the car and the driver no matter what the conditions.
JSR:If you are nervous about achieving that don't buy a TVR. Frankly you CAN learn to do it. The biggest hurdle to overcome is attitude. You have got to understand that a Griff is a fierce animal waiting to bite your ar*e the moment you aren't totally vigilant. Even my Chimaera 450 is the same (not as potent by any means).
Buy one and love it - but never take it or you for granted else it'll bite you.
Frankly it almost amounts to "TVR don't fit ABS/Traction therefore they can't be any good/necessary".
Boxster drives itself does it? What sh*te.
ABS retains steering control under heavy braking. It will also apply the MAXIMUM amount of braking effect in a straight line that the road surface can take. That is what it does. Yes - less use on track perhaps. Yes - an inexperienced driver will be saved from a lock up. and YES that is a fcuking good thing on the road.
Sure TVRs don't have it. Doesn't mean its sensible.
Although I 100% absolutely agree that advanced driver training is a must and should avoid the need for ABS I know for damn certain when something unexpected happens I want it on my side and helping.
Traction control: Some systems are crap. Some systems are wonderful. Ask the Porsche boys about PSM and a wet track at Silverstone. Fan-fcuking-tastic thank you very much. Not because I used it all the time - that would demonstrate poor driving, frankly, no - because it helped out once when it would have been a big moment otherwise.
On a road you never want have a big moment. The best way is to have advanced driver training and a proper attitude towards enjoying your motoring. But with a Griff's bhp on tap would I like traction control "in case my foot slips?" you bet.
Open your minds, gentlemen.
I agree with you all that training is the way to go. I do NOT agree that ABS/SM/TC would not be a good thing on a car as powerful as a TVR.
Having said that: since TVR do not and (likely) never will fit these safety aids it is 100% the drivers responsibility to drive 100% within the limits of both the car and the driver no matter what the conditions.
JSR:If you are nervous about achieving that don't buy a TVR. Frankly you CAN learn to do it. The biggest hurdle to overcome is attitude. You have got to understand that a Griff is a fierce animal waiting to bite your ar*e the moment you aren't totally vigilant. Even my Chimaera 450 is the same (not as potent by any means).
Buy one and love it - but never take it or you for granted else it'll bite you.
Don said:
Well...what a lot of TVR owner opinions!
Frankly it almost amounts to "TVR don't fit ABS/Traction therefore they can't be any good/necessary".
I like to think I have an open mind about these things, and I'm deeply interested in the theory and practice of car control. ABS/TC etc is not necessarily a bad thing, but it can be a mixed blessing. In some exceptional cases they can be positively harmful as they rule out some options to get yourself out of trouble.
They are good in that they help stop you from being surprised by the car when you aren't alert and fully in control, and require less skill and concentration to get near the limits of the car. Given the choice, and if money was no object, I'd quite like to have these fitted and I'd have them turned on for gentle pottering about in the winter. But I would have them turned off when I was on a track, and IMO this would make the car safer and faster. As well as being a hell of a lot more fun to drive, and helping me develop my car control skills.
GreenV8S said:
But I would have them turned off when I was on a track, and IMO this would make the car safer and faster. As well as being a hell of a lot more fun to drive, and helping me develop my car control skills.
Peter. I absolutely believe you do have an open mind. I have read a great many of your posts and articles in Sprint and I know you are a significantly more expert track driver than me...
But I'll disagree with your comment about being more fun to drive. If the ABS/SM systems are good enough they don't/shoud not get in the way. I know that the systems fitted to my Porsche have never intruded on any of my evil schemes as to what I wanted the car to do - in anything other than a benefical way. Perhaps when I am more expert I will eschew all aids - in the meantime I have more fun and entertainment given the additional confidence that if I make a minor driving gaffe at the limit of adhesion the car will do its best to help out...rather than chew my ar*e out for being a bad driver!
Major gaffes are my own problem and I accept that.
All that said: my comments really pertain to what is suitable on a road car for driving on the road...not what is most entertaining on track.
And as an aside:
On track I have thoroughly enjoyed cars with none of the driver aids, got to the limit, and not pranged...although I have a lot to learn about squeezing all the available speed out of a circuit...and will probably never achieve more than what an enthusiastic amateur could be expected to ...
well i test drove a couple or Porsches and a Tuscan and my 500 Chim.
I decided to purchase said TVR over a Porsche or an SLK.as they too easy to drive any numpty and even yer granny can drive one.(especially when it's wet.
It take skill and thought to drive a TVR and not everyone has that.
HENCE I BOUGHT AND I LOVE MY TREVOR.
I decided to purchase said TVR over a Porsche or an SLK.as they too easy to drive any numpty and even yer granny can drive one.(especially when it's wet.
It take skill and thought to drive a TVR and not everyone has that.
HENCE I BOUGHT AND I LOVE MY TREVOR.
I've got admit that it's a totally buttock clenching experience driving the SEAC down Cheddar Gorge before the dew has burnt off the road. Slippier than a slippy thing that been left in the rain. The back snakes along roughly in the same direction as the front; every bump turns a twitch into a slip! We aren't talking high speeds here 20mph will do the trick in some parts of the Gorge.
Sometimes I wish I could press a "behave yourself" button and just drive.
But on the other hand - my daily drive can get down the Gorge without any of these hassles. I'm in the TVR for a very special driving experience and I'm getting it!
Perhaps my only gripe is that full-on in-yer-face attitude is bad for ones karma first thing in the morning
Sometimes I wish I could press a "behave yourself" button and just drive.
But on the other hand - my daily drive can get down the Gorge without any of these hassles. I'm in the TVR for a very special driving experience and I'm getting it!
Perhaps my only gripe is that full-on in-yer-face attitude is bad for ones karma first thing in the morning
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