Tuesday 20th May 2008

Diesel Commodore On The Way

Aussie carmaker looking to add diesel and hybrid to Commodore line-up

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Oil be back

The Holden Commodore, which spawned the meaty Vauxhall VXR8, is a real man’s car. The kind of car you can herd cattle in and has a mullet stain on the headrest.

It is not the kind of car you would expect to have a hybrid or diesel motor under the bonnet – until now.

According to reports General Motors group vice president Nick Reilly was recently in Melbourne, Australia, for Holden’s quarterly strategy meeting and revealed that petrol may soon not be the only fuel in the company’s range.

Interestingly a hybrid is the first thing the carmaker would look at in ‘the next couple of years’, adding that the Commodore 'could be one of the first hybrids you could see [in Australia from GM]. I would put a time frame on that of probably a couple of years,' according to Drive.com.

He said the company would then look at bring out an oil burner: ‘We don’t don’t yet have a diesel Commodore but that will come.’

Another shock for the Aussie Commodore fan was that the company may even look at a puny four-cylinder engine to join the fold, which could be a 2.0-litre turbo.

What next – a diesel VXR8? Who knows…

[Droptheclutch]

Jeeze, I'd eat my cork-danglin' hat if that happens!

Bunch of flamin' Galahs!

[Road_Terrorist]

They did a four cylinder Commodore back in the early '80s, wasn't much of a success as it was so gutless. The 195kW turbo four from Saab they are thinking of using would be a fair bit better. It was only 10 years ago that 195kW was the most powerful V8 commodore you could buy!

[wab172uk]

Quite easy to get decent power/Torque from a 2.0 Turbo.

Lighter engine up front resulting in better handling.

Don't think it would be such a bad idea. Keep the V8's for those that still want them.

[Dave81]

What ever they chose, i hope it has no less than 500ft lbs of torque!!

[flattotheboards]

Diesel VXR8 would be great,8 cylinders 6.0 litres and loads of torque.

[big_rob_sydney]

Its still a large bodied car. Putting in a small capacity engine, turbo or not, is asking for trouble.

The market responded with a pretty clear NO when it was released in a much smaller bodied car 1980 -84 was the era of the VC - VK bodied car, which weighed up to 1300kg in the V8 model (which I had). 1300 KG today is either a mid sized car, or in some cases even smaller!

I cant really see it working this time in a car that is going to be 2-300 kg heavier.

[nrayner]

It's interesting the focus on hybrids apart from the Hollywood "I am green" advert that is the Prius.

It seems to be all the fat-arsed cars that are getting the option - look at the lexi that have been done - the 4wd and one of the "executive" larger models that just bring the numbers back down to acceptable mpg values for other cars.

The real beauty of hybrids will be when we can get Elises, MX5s, Cayman type cars that don't have the weight to haul around and a decent glob of torque without silly engine sizes. I'd be queuing up for such a toy so I could have the fun I desired, and the economy and green footprint I'd like. Although selling a perfectly good 10 year old car to buy something brand new probably pushes the balance the other way for quite a while.

Hopefully the F1 work will filter to some interesting sports based manufacturer models from BMW, Merc, Honda, Toyota.

Is it because the battery weight is so much, you need a lot of weight in the first place to the percentage increase is smaller ??

[DamoLLb]

big_rob_sydney said:

Its still a large bodied car. Putting in a small capacity engine, turbo or not, is asking for trouble.

The market responded with a pretty clear NO when it was released in a much smaller bodied car 1980 -84 was the era of the VC - VK bodied car, which weighed up to 1300kg in the V8 model (which I had). 1300 KG today is either a mid sized car, or in some cases even smaller!

I cant really see it working this time in a car that is going to be 2-300 kg heavier.

The market is very different place today then it was in the 80s. It makes sense that such an option is added, people (including myself) are accepting diesel power or smaller capicity turbos inplace of high capacity petrol motors.

If Smaller 4 pot turbos or diesels engines need to be produced to satisfy the market whilst enabling the big V8s to headline then that works for me. you have to accept, much like porsche has with the cayane, that the fun stuff needs to be funded by the main stream.

[collateral]

More choice is good...

Alpina seem to rather approve of sport diesels

[cowellsj]

What?? A 2.0TDi, how that going to haul a huge great car like that about at anything above a crawl.

They could at least make it a 6.0 V8 Diesel.

[wilson s]

vxr8 shouldnt have a diesel Engine full stop stick wif the ls2 and the new 6.o litre v8 of out the chevy!!!

[Magners P.H]

What is all the hype with diesels?

Is it a marketing thing? or are manufacturers building them because they can run on it rape seed oil (as opposed to crude oil, which as we know is expensive and scarce due to supply and demand) so they will still be able to function in a decade or so? (which I guess you could also call marketing in a way)

Either way I still think even the top end diesel cars sounds pretty crap.


Matt.

Edited by Magners P.H on Tuesday 20th May 14:55

Edited by Magners P.H on Tuesday 20th May 14:55

[Road_Terrorist]

big_rob_sydney said:

Its still a large bodied car. Putting in a small capacity engine, turbo or not, is asking for trouble.

The market responded with a pretty clear NO when it was released in a much smaller bodied car 1980 -84 was the era of the VC - VK bodied car, which weighed up to 1300kg in the V8 model (which I had). 1300 KG today is either a mid sized car, or in some cases even smaller!

I cant really see it working this time in a car that is going to be 2-300 kg heavier.

The problem with the original four cylinder commodore is that it used the crappy starfire motor, which didn't even make as much power as the smaller capacity engines in the Gemini or Camira of that time. It was hastily thrown together and largely an afterthought because of the fuel crisis, so it was never really going to work that well.

The real problem was that four banger was aimed at the economy buyers, but these people were/are not particularly brand loyal or patriotic as was more typical of Holdens larger car customers. The Japanese cars were starting to get quite good by that stage and offered much better performance, economy, comfort and equipment for the same or less money. That was the decade that Toyota, Mitsubishi and to a lesser extent Mazda, Nissan & Honda really emerged as strong players in the less parochial or 'cardigan wearing' section of the Australian car market and it's a position they still hold today, especially Toyota.

In the mid 80s the original Magna and later Camry were ripping chunks out the low end Commodore market as they were clearly superior cars in just about every way except for being RWD, but even that wasn't an advantage as it meant nothing to your average buyer except less interior space. Holden basically had to retreat back to the large car segment because they couldn't really compete in the mid-size segment, where their unique selling points didn't really hold much sway with the typical customers of that part of the market.

There are also plenty of Commodore sized cars that do make do with four pots in base models, the current BMW 520i has a 170bhp 2.0L four, the Audi A6 has a 170bhp 2.0L Turbo four. The old Omega on which the VT was based also made do with a four pot. Of course none of those cars are performance machines, but the people who buy them want/need a large car, but dont want a diesel for whatever reason and the four provides adequate performance with acceptable economy. These days Holden has access to some decent four cylinder motors from the GM range and it should be fairly easy to slot one into the Commodore. It wont be a performance machine, but it might just be enough to tempt the odd accountant out of his Camry if the deal is good enough.

Lets face it, it's not like your average Australian driver actually needs the performance of a big six engine in most driving these days anymore and the new V6 requires a bit of a rev to get it moving anyway, so a quick boosting turbo four would probably be the more sensible option for your typical Australian everyday traffic driving. I think it would actually be easier to flog your average Aussie car buyer an four pot petrol Commodore than a diesel six. Not only would the four pot still use widely available petrol, which aussie buyers know and understand, but rego costs are usually priced by cylinders, so a four cylinder would be cheaper to register as well.

[trikezx6r]

Would be better with a Vectra VXR V6 Turbo engine rather than a four pot.Surely..I.know you can get the same power out or a four pot but the V6 would be less stressed with the weight it has to haul

Or offer a Factory fitted LPG with the V8..Best of both worlds..Economy and POWER..And beat the Congestion charge...What a good do!

Edited by trikezx6r on Tuesday 20th May 21:38

[big_rob_sydney]

Road_Terrorist said:

big_rob_sydney said:

Its still a large bodied car. Putting in a small capacity engine, turbo or not, is asking for trouble.

The market responded with a pretty clear NO when it was released in a much smaller bodied car 1980 -84 was the era of the VC - VK bodied car, which weighed up to 1300kg in the V8 model (which I had). 1300 KG today is either a mid sized car, or in some cases even smaller!

I cant really see it working this time in a car that is going to be 2-300 kg heavier.

The problem with the original four cylinder commodore is that it used the crappy starfire motor, which didn't even make as much power as the smaller capacity engines in the Gemini or Camira of that time. It was hastily thrown together and largely an afterthought because of the fuel crisis, so it was never really going to work that well.

The real problem was that four banger was aimed at the economy buyers, but these people were/are not particularly brand loyal or patriotic as was more typical of Holdens larger car customers. The Japanese cars were starting to get quite good by that stage and offered much better performance, economy, comfort and equipment for the same or less money. That was the decade that Toyota, Mitsubishi and to a lesser extent Mazda, Nissan & Honda really emerged as strong players in the less parochial or 'cardigan wearing' section of the Australian car market and it's a position they still hold today, especially Toyota.

In the mid 80s the original Magna and later Camry were ripping chunks out the low end Commodore market as they were clearly superior cars in just about every way except for being RWD, but even that wasn't an advantage as it meant nothing to your average buyer except less interior space. Holden basically had to retreat back to the large car segment because they couldn't really compete in the mid-size segment, where their unique selling points didn't really hold much sway with the typical customers of that part of the market.

There are also plenty of Commodore sized cars that do make do with four pots in base models, the current BMW 520i has a 170bhp 2.0L four, the Audi A6 has a 170bhp 2.0L Turbo four. The old Omega on which the VT was based also made do with a four pot. Of course none of those cars are performance machines, but the people who buy them want/need a large car, but dont want a diesel for whatever reason and the four provides adequate performance with acceptable economy. These days Holden has access to some decent four cylinder motors from the GM range and it should be fairly easy to slot one into the Commodore. It wont be a performance machine, but it might just be enough to tempt the odd accountant out of his Camry if the deal is good enough.

Lets face it, it's not like your average Australian driver actually needs the performance of a big six engine in most driving these days anymore and the new V6 requires a bit of a rev to get it moving anyway, so a quick boosting turbo four would probably be the more sensible option for your typical Australian everyday traffic driving. I think it would actually be easier to flog your average Aussie car buyer an four pot petrol Commodore than a diesel six. Not only would the four pot still use widely available petrol, which aussie buyers know and understand, but rego costs are usually priced by cylinders, so a four cylinder would be cheaper to register as well.

To summarise:
1 Early 4 cylinder engines were crap.
2 4 cylinder Holder buyers werent brand loyal, and Japanese cars did the job better.
3 Having RWD wasnt a good enough issue to retain customers for Holden.
4 Other manufacturers run 4 cylinder cars in big bodies.
5 Discussion of need versus want.

1. Agree
2. Agree
3. Agree
4. Not sure on this one. The point is valid, not disputing that, but in Australia, I dont think the number of 4 cylinder big bodied cars is very large, when you look at the market as a whole. The numbers sold of the BMW and Audi you quoted is actually quite small, whereas the numbers sold of a big engined big car, and a 4 pot small car, are very high, with v6 and v8 Commodore and 4pot Corolla selling very well, just to name 2 examples.

5. This one is always subjective, so its tough to get to a right or wrong. I will say that Australia is a big country, and people there like the idea of a big car. For many years, Ford Falcons and Holden Commodores were incredibly popular. The current cost of fuel is making a lot of people think twice though.

Actually, diesel was never very popular among typical commuters (farmers have different needs). Where you see 50%+ sales of diesel cars in Europe, up until the last few years, diesel was pretty much unheard of among private commuters. Again, due to fuel costs, this is changing.

And this is what I mean. While there are many youngsters coming through to car buying age, there are still a lot of older people who grew up with the idea that bigger is better, and because their dads bought a big engined big car, then they will as well.

And while its not a DIRECT influence, theres a very strong tribal element of Ford versus Holden motor racing, with the V8 Supercars. This tends to reinforce the big engine attitudes.

I'd agree that the tide is changing, but historically Australia hasnt embraced small engines in big cars. They'd prefer to have bigger engines with cylinder deactivation technology, rather than simply smaller engines, albeit with turbos attached.

[anonymous-user]

Magners P.H said:

What is all the hype with diesels?

Is it a marketing thing? or are manufacturers building them because they can run on it rape seed oil (as opposed to crude oil, which as we know is expensive and scarce due to supply and demand) so they will still be able to function in a decade or so? (which I guess you could also call marketing in a way)

Either way I still think even the top end diesel cars sounds pretty crap.


Matt.

Edited by Magners P.H on Tuesday 20th May 14:55

Edited by Magners P.H on Tuesday 20th May 14:55

It's a fad and nothing else. Most people are like sheep following the diesel herd. I can see the price of diesel being put up so much that in the end everyone will revert back to petrol. IMO of course

[308mate]

Road_Terrorist said:

There are also plenty of Commodore sized cars that do make do with four pots in base models, the current BMW 520i has a 170bhp 2.0L four, the Audi A6 has a 170bhp 2.0L Turbo four. The old Omega on which the VT was based also made do with a four pot. Of course none of those cars are performance machines, but the people who buy them want/need a large car, but dont want a diesel for whatever reason and the four provides adequate performance with acceptable economy. These days Holden has access to some decent four cylinder motors from the GM range and it should be fairly easy to slot one into the Commodore. It wont be a performance machine, but it might just be enough to tempt the odd accountant out of his Camry if the deal is good enough.

Lets face it, it's not like your average Australian driver actually needs the performance of a big six engine in most driving these days anymore and the new V6 requires a bit of a rev to get it moving anyway, so a quick boosting turbo four would probably be the more sensible option for your typical Australian everyday traffic driving. I think it would actually be easier to flog your average Aussie car buyer an four pot petrol Commodore than a diesel six. Not only would the four pot still use widely available petrol, which aussie buyers know and understand, but rego costs are usually priced by cylinders, so a four cylinder would be cheaper to register as well.

I think the problem IS brand loyalty. Australian buyers are very partisan and the problem is this:

You cant take a feature of japanese/european cars and put it in the big australian Commodore or Falcon. There is not enough cross over of buyers between the marques.

If Aussies want 4 pot and reliability etc, they get a Corolla. If they want a big family car, they go for Commodore or Falcon and to some extent Magna or Camry and if they want a diesel, they get a Land Cruiser. When the 1998 (I think thats the YM I mean?) Camry V6 came out, it was one of the best engines in the world. The Camrys performance figures matched the VS SS Commodore and it was nicer to drive. And barely anyone who didnt already have one, bought one. Toyota people still bought Toyotas, Holden people still bought Holdens. Hence the success of badge engineering there. Why else would Holden have badged up and sold any Apollos?

People wont buy a 4cyl commodore because the commodore's engines are so much a part of its identity. Take the engines away and what are you left with? Its not especially good looking or refined. It really has no other USP other than its size and its RWD, which is at odds with a proposal to fit a 4cyl turbo.

I think a large deisel engine is a much better prospect. Your average HSV driver is shown to be a miner or a self made man. Chances are his work car is a Land Cruiser in any case. He will easily identify with a deisel engine in the big car on the grounds of fuel economy. They are also one of the few markets in the world that has an appreciation or understanding of torque. There are so few deisel paassenger cars on the market there, the average aussie has very little exposure to a decent one. If you could show them how far they have come and stick a really good one in the commodore, youd turn them on to diesel easily.

road terrorist said:

It wont be a performance machine, but it might just be enough to tempt the odd accountant out of his Camry if the deal is good enough.

On these grounds, you think its a good idea? Not exactly a convincing sell is it?

Aussies might not NEED the performance. But its not the performance they want. Its the perception of it. There really were no Australian Performance cars in the 90s anyway. Holden had the SS commodore and somehow managed a pedestrian 7.6 sec to 100kmh from 5 litres of V8 in a not especially heavy car (I know cause I had one). HSVs were dipping into the 6sec bracket for 5.7litres.

Young kids grew up with 253ci V8 in their kingswoods that couldnt pull the skin off custard but they would still have had that over anything else because its a V8(I know cause I was one of them!).

4cyl/4cyl turbo, means small jap or cheap euro
6cyl/8cyl, means big aussie or expensive euro

You would need to single handedly change Australian car culture to flog a 4cyl big Aussie.

Edited by 308mate on Thursday 22 May 09:19

[thunderbelmont]

Chevy have a very clever, fairly lightweight (alloy heads, new lighter block), 6.6L V8 Diesel which they use in things like the Suburban, and others, in the 'States. It's the same engine that's in the back of the fabled Trident Iceni. 375hp / 530lb/ft common rail.

That'll do nicely.

I'd have one, run it on chip oil!

Rob.

[XitUp]

thunderbelmont said:

Chevy have a very clever, fairly lightweight (alloy heads, new lighter block), 6.6L V8 Diesel which they use in things like the Suburban, and others, in the 'States. It's the same engine that's in the back of the fabled Trident Iceni. 375hp / 530lb/ft common rail.

That'll do nicely.

I'd have one, run it on chip oil!

Rob.

The 6.6 Duramax would be a very tight fit.

The VM Motori RA 630 could work. 247 hp (184 kW); torque: 369 ft•lbf (500 N m)

Maybe the new 4.5 Duramax for a HSV-D? It's designed to fit in the same space as a small block. 310 hp (231 kW) and 520 lb·ft (705 N·m)