Stop and chat with the man in the van.
Discussion
Last night at about 7ish I was on my way home and in no great hurry, for those in Kent I was coming up Wrotham hill and noticed it was the regular wednesday night Oakdene Cafe Bikers meet, anyway I passed my first set of six coppers lurking at the road side pulling motorcyclist for cans and plates with another couple half a mile up the road hiding in the bushes with radios. I burbled past and they didn't raise an eyebrow as they were obviously on a mission for bikers.
So about 3/4 miles further on I come into a village (Meopham) this has a single carrageway A road going through it and until recently it was NSL out of the village and 40 in it. Its now 40 out of the village and 30 in it. Parked up at the side of the road in a silver van with day glo graphics and large "camera" motif on the side is the mobile scamera man, I chug past and think I'm in no great hurry lets go back for a chat. I turned round and then parked directly infront of the back doors (if it's safe for him it must be legal and safe for me
) blocking his view, get out and have my 20 min chat with the operator, as follows is roughly what was said and seen:
The van was very cossy inside with carpets and comfy chair and he'd even decorated the walls (but I'll come to what with later) The operator was probably around his fifties and was a retired police officer, now Civilian Support Staff (drawing a pension and a wage
) who had "worked traffic" for some of his time, he also confirmed that that was the same for all other operators in the Kent force (my impression was "jobs for the boys" but he denied this and said it was just a coincidence ) The equipment he was using was an LTI 20/20 laser tripod mounted, linked to a video camera, larger monitor, and thermal printer. He said he found the equipment "incredible" accurate but had no means of calibrating it or proving this statement, he also had no knowledge of the case in the states where an LTI 20/20 was shown to have the court wall moving at 4 mph, or of any other countries withdrawing them because of doubts about there accuracy/reliabilty.
He left the laser targetted on a fixed point and as vehicles drove through this he simply monitored the speed displayed and pulled the trigger to freeze the image at anything over 36mph (10% of the limit plus 3mph were his guidelines), he confessed to making no prior assessment about the vehicles speeds prior to the actual "nicking" but did claim that he could "tell" the speeds of vehicles just by looking and proved this to a pretty impressive level i.e within a couple of mph each time on 4 attempts !!!!!
He hadn't heard anything about the "Yorke" case or the "172 loophole" and said he simply collected the evidence handed it all to other civilian clerks at the ticketing office who then issued the NIP's.
As far as his positioning was concerned he claimed he could only park the van at a "known accident blackspot" (he was actually outside a school but at 7 oclock at night) When asked how an accident blackspot was defined he said all reported accidents are awarded a points allocation dependant on the level of injury or death then according to a matrix once a set number of points were reached it became a blackspot ( he didn't seem to understand the fact that without any time constraints or control this principle will eventually mean that every road in the country becomes a blackspot !!!) he also said that it was the road that was designated a blackspot not and actual position, the road he was actually on is approx 15 miles long, when I pointed this out he changed the story to no it has to be within 1Km of the blackspot but was still unable to tell me how they decide on what a blackspot actually is on a long road!
When asked why here and why tonight he said it was done on a rotor system but when I pointed out that I had seen 8 police officers further down the road specifically targetting bikers, that he was parked up in the early evening in a position that specifically enabled him to take rear photographs just round a bend and fairly hidden from traffic coming from behind on the main road leading to a very well known bikers meeting point he blushed farted stuttered and said oh no its nothing like that......yea my arse it isn't.
Now the interesting bit which I am 99% certain he lied to me over. On the inside of the van walls were 12 large format full colour pictures (probably 13 now) of vehicles on the road in different locations when asked about these he said they were "hazard perception" pictures but when I pushed the point about what the hazard on each one was the answers were just not convincing, I then asked why they were there or if they were for operator training perhaps? The answer was "no no I just like to put them up and decorate the van a bit" this is very odd, I could understand maybe a picture of the wife and kids or a girly calender, but this guy claimed that because the back of this van was like his office he simply put up some pictures of road hazards, now I know it takes all sorts in this world but that was just beyond belief and I suspect they were one of either two things. They were either "Trophies" of his best nickings and he was too embarrased to say or they were the "ones that got away" and possibly particular vehicles that he was "after". Either way I'm sure he lied about them but not sure why.
The whole conversation was very civil and polite and when he asked me what my particular interest in this was I replied simply that I drive a 160mph sports car and ride a 180mph bike, I have an interest in safe speed and am keen to "know my enemy" so to speak. He was more than happy to answer all my questions and accepted that he was a public servant and that as a member of the public I had a right to ask these questions. It was an informative and well spent 20 mins and he even gave me some lovely little propaganda brochures (full of complete shite by the way) to take home. I'll also confess it was rather nice to be in a position of putting the boot on the other foot and asking him awkward questions and making him squirm, but thats besides the point.
I would encourage all of you to do exactly the same if you have the time when you see these vans, it was worth it and even if nothing else I tied him up talking for 20 mins a no doubt prevented a fair few tickets being issued
So about 3/4 miles further on I come into a village (Meopham) this has a single carrageway A road going through it and until recently it was NSL out of the village and 40 in it. Its now 40 out of the village and 30 in it. Parked up at the side of the road in a silver van with day glo graphics and large "camera" motif on the side is the mobile scamera man, I chug past and think I'm in no great hurry lets go back for a chat. I turned round and then parked directly infront of the back doors (if it's safe for him it must be legal and safe for me
) blocking his view, get out and have my 20 min chat with the operator, as follows is roughly what was said and seen: The van was very cossy inside with carpets and comfy chair and he'd even decorated the walls (but I'll come to what with later) The operator was probably around his fifties and was a retired police officer, now Civilian Support Staff (drawing a pension and a wage
) who had "worked traffic" for some of his time, he also confirmed that that was the same for all other operators in the Kent force (my impression was "jobs for the boys" but he denied this and said it was just a coincidence ) The equipment he was using was an LTI 20/20 laser tripod mounted, linked to a video camera, larger monitor, and thermal printer. He said he found the equipment "incredible" accurate but had no means of calibrating it or proving this statement, he also had no knowledge of the case in the states where an LTI 20/20 was shown to have the court wall moving at 4 mph, or of any other countries withdrawing them because of doubts about there accuracy/reliabilty. He left the laser targetted on a fixed point and as vehicles drove through this he simply monitored the speed displayed and pulled the trigger to freeze the image at anything over 36mph (10% of the limit plus 3mph were his guidelines), he confessed to making no prior assessment about the vehicles speeds prior to the actual "nicking" but did claim that he could "tell" the speeds of vehicles just by looking and proved this to a pretty impressive level i.e within a couple of mph each time on 4 attempts !!!!!
He hadn't heard anything about the "Yorke" case or the "172 loophole" and said he simply collected the evidence handed it all to other civilian clerks at the ticketing office who then issued the NIP's.
As far as his positioning was concerned he claimed he could only park the van at a "known accident blackspot" (he was actually outside a school but at 7 oclock at night) When asked how an accident blackspot was defined he said all reported accidents are awarded a points allocation dependant on the level of injury or death then according to a matrix once a set number of points were reached it became a blackspot ( he didn't seem to understand the fact that without any time constraints or control this principle will eventually mean that every road in the country becomes a blackspot !!!) he also said that it was the road that was designated a blackspot not and actual position, the road he was actually on is approx 15 miles long, when I pointed this out he changed the story to no it has to be within 1Km of the blackspot but was still unable to tell me how they decide on what a blackspot actually is on a long road!
When asked why here and why tonight he said it was done on a rotor system but when I pointed out that I had seen 8 police officers further down the road specifically targetting bikers, that he was parked up in the early evening in a position that specifically enabled him to take rear photographs just round a bend and fairly hidden from traffic coming from behind on the main road leading to a very well known bikers meeting point he blushed farted stuttered and said oh no its nothing like that......yea my arse it isn't.
Now the interesting bit which I am 99% certain he lied to me over. On the inside of the van walls were 12 large format full colour pictures (probably 13 now
) of vehicles on the road in different locations when asked about these he said they were "hazard perception" pictures but when I pushed the point about what the hazard on each one was the answers were just not convincing, I then asked why they were there or if they were for operator training perhaps? The answer was "no no I just like to put them up and decorate the van a bit" this is very odd, I could understand maybe a picture of the wife and kids or a girly calender, but this guy claimed that because the back of this van was like his office he simply put up some pictures of road hazards, now I know it takes all sorts in this world but that was just beyond belief and I suspect they were one of either two things. They were either "Trophies" of his best nickings and he was too embarrased to say or they were the "ones that got away" and possibly particular vehicles that he was "after". Either way I'm sure he lied about them but not sure why. The whole conversation was very civil and polite and when he asked me what my particular interest in this was I replied simply that I drive a 160mph sports car and ride a 180mph bike, I have an interest in safe speed and am keen to "know my enemy" so to speak. He was more than happy to answer all my questions and accepted that he was a public servant and that as a member of the public I had a right to ask these questions. It was an informative and well spent 20 mins and he even gave me some lovely little propaganda brochures (full of complete shite by the way) to take home. I'll also confess it was rather nice to be in a position of putting the boot on the other foot and asking him awkward questions and making him squirm, but thats besides the point.
I would encourage all of you to do exactly the same if you have the time when you see these vans, it was worth it and even if nothing else I tied him up talking for 20 mins a no doubt prevented a fair few tickets being issued
Nice one.
Must say, I've noticed these wearers of the brothel creeper in our local domain and it riles like naff all else, especially when it's blatent tax collection rather than some spurious sprog protection claim.
Indeed, you've inspired me, so that this Sunday, on my post-numpty shuffle run, I shall be mostly challenging the relevant clipboard specialist to justify their existence on both a moral and cellular level.
Toe rags.
Must say, I've noticed these wearers of the brothel creeper in our local domain and it riles like naff all else, especially when it's blatent tax collection rather than some spurious sprog protection claim.
Indeed, you've inspired me, so that this Sunday, on my post-numpty shuffle run, I shall be mostly challenging the relevant clipboard specialist to justify their existence on both a moral and cellular level.
Toe rags.
Well done Mel.
Yesterday whilst working from home I noticed a lone bike copper at the top of our road pointing the phaser down the road trying to bag some poor sod. When I went and asked him why his reply was "Its an accident blackspot, this". Needless to say I replied that it wasn't, it was actually the set of bends further up the road, and why didn't he want to go up there?
Well he replied, this section of road has recently been detrunked and we want to make sure that road users are obeying the new limit. All well and good sayeth I, but there's huge great roadsigns erected stating the new limit. How many of us poor sods have been busted so far? Oh, nobody yet he said.
What a complete waste of time. Our local village store gets turned over and Plod are nowhere to be seen, yet here we have Peels finest wasting time.
I think he only went because the decorators working on the apartments were trying to surreptitiously flick Dulux at him.
Yesterday whilst working from home I noticed a lone bike copper at the top of our road pointing the phaser down the road trying to bag some poor sod. When I went and asked him why his reply was "Its an accident blackspot, this". Needless to say I replied that it wasn't, it was actually the set of bends further up the road, and why didn't he want to go up there?
Well he replied, this section of road has recently been detrunked and we want to make sure that road users are obeying the new limit. All well and good sayeth I, but there's huge great roadsigns erected stating the new limit. How many of us poor sods have been busted so far? Oh, nobody yet he said.
What a complete waste of time. Our local village store gets turned over and Plod are nowhere to be seen, yet here we have Peels finest wasting time.
I think he only went because the decorators working on the apartments were trying to surreptitiously flick Dulux at him.
derestrictor said:
Indeed, you've inspired me, so that this Sunday, on my post-numpty shuffle run, I shall be mostly challenging the relevant clipboard specialist to justify their existence on both a moral and cellular level.
PLEASE take a DAT/MD/Walkman to record your conversation, I'd love to hear you baffle a Talivan operator with your latin!
Mel,
Thanks for the information... I was caught on this road,( but in the 40mph at the entrance to Bocoda Farm) 30th April, and every night travel home along it (from Gravesend to Vigo), and was waiting to see mister vanman so I could stop and talk to him to see how he operated. Unfortunately last night I was on holiday so did not see him. I have also written to my MP asking the same question as you - why monitor outside a school (ok good) but at 7pm!! Letter being answered at Jeery Holland by Kent Police, so should have an answer within a week or so.
Many thanks for the information - I feel that I have even more evidence that they have little on me.
Thanks for the information... I was caught on this road,( but in the 40mph at the entrance to Bocoda Farm) 30th April, and every night travel home along it (from Gravesend to Vigo), and was waiting to see mister vanman so I could stop and talk to him to see how he operated. Unfortunately last night I was on holiday so did not see him. I have also written to my MP asking the same question as you - why monitor outside a school (ok good) but at 7pm!! Letter being answered at Jeery Holland by Kent Police, so should have an answer within a week or so.
Many thanks for the information - I feel that I have even more evidence that they have little on me.
GregE240 said:
Well done Mel.
Yesterday whilst working from home I noticed a lone bike copper at the top of our road pointing the phaser down the road trying to bag some poor sod. When I went and asked him why his reply was "Its an accident blackspot, this". Needless to say I replied that it wasn't, it was actually the set of bends further up the road, and why didn't he want to go up there?
Well he replied, this section of road has recently been detrunked and we want to make sure that road users are obeying the new limit. All well and good sayeth I, but there's huge great roadsigns erected stating the new limit. How many of us poor sods have been busted so far? Oh, nobody yet he said.
What a complete waste of time. Our local village store gets turned over and Plod are nowhere to be seen, yet here we have Peels finest wasting time.
I think he only went because the decorators working on the apartments were trying to surreptitiously flick Dulux at him.
Im afraid that the content of this just rubbs me up the wrong way........
Firstly, if im out on patrol and on the rare occasion i have a Laser device with me, i will stop anywhere that i see fit where people are speeding. First and foremost, thats my job, to catch poeple speeding whether it in an accident blackspot or not.
My colleagues are out there catching Burglars and Rapists and the usual blah! (or at least trying too).
I wouldnt mind if a member of the public came up to me and asked questions..after all, its all about education. But what i wouldnt like is someone telling me where to ply my trade etc etc.
So to sum up......Trafpol are there to educate and prosecute persistant piss takers of speed...like it or lump it.
I almost forgot...to clear up the debris when it invariably all goes wrong.
>> Edited by tonyrec on Sunday 24th August 19:41
Tony, i take on board the part where you say about your colleagues catching burglars etc, i also take on board the part about having to clean the mess up after things go wrong, point taken.
However, (and i mean this not in any way to offend) , do you really believe deep down that pointing a laser speed gun at motorists does either a) makes for good public/police relations, and b) is it really making any difference?
If i was in your position i would honestly have to say NO to both of those questions.
I dont see how it does anything good at all for relations between the public and yourselves.
I fail absolutely to see how a NIP in the post will alter anyones driving behaviour for the better, as the numbers of drivers caught continues to rise, and its not because detection rates are getting that much better; Its because EVERYONE speeds. Its an accepted part of driving a car.
Im afraid that particular attitude will never be changed by speed trap technology or the insistance that speed kills.
Laters matey.
However, (and i mean this not in any way to offend) , do you really believe deep down that pointing a laser speed gun at motorists does either a) makes for good public/police relations, and b) is it really making any difference?
If i was in your position i would honestly have to say NO to both of those questions.
I dont see how it does anything good at all for relations between the public and yourselves.
I fail absolutely to see how a NIP in the post will alter anyones driving behaviour for the better, as the numbers of drivers caught continues to rise, and its not because detection rates are getting that much better; Its because EVERYONE speeds. Its an accepted part of driving a car.
Im afraid that particular attitude will never be changed by speed trap technology or the insistance that speed kills.
Laters matey.
deltaf said:
However, (and i mean this not in any way to offend) , do you really believe deep down that pointing a laser speed gun at motorists does either a) makes for good public/police relations, and b) is it really making any difference?
Im not talking about 40's in a 30 or anything like that....im talking about the real pi** takers.
Once they are stopped then my training really kicks in....vehicle exams etc etc.
You know what i think about speeding and Talivans, but by me catching the ones that deserve to get caught then i believe that the public will most definately be on my side and certainly not against me......and yes, when used like this it really does make a difference.
see
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unsigned_forms/files/Results%20from%20Faxyourmp.com/
for a reply from MP Chris Pond re scameras in Meopham Kent and the Police attempt to catch bikers (clearly the aim!!)
>> Edited by rodney59 on Thursday 28th August 12:14
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/unsigned_forms/files/Results%20from%20Faxyourmp.com/
for a reply from MP Chris Pond re scameras in Meopham Kent and the Police attempt to catch bikers (clearly the aim!!)
>> Edited by rodney59 on Thursday 28th August 12:14
deltaf said:
I fail absolutely to see how a NIP in the post will alter anyones driving behaviour for the better
But surely that's not what happens when the likes of Tony zap someone. He pulls them over and 'has a go'* at them.
I've been zapped by a traffic cop in a 30 zone. At the time I was rather naive, I'd pulled out onto the road behind a van, and the driver seemed to be waving at me.
Rather confused I sped up to get a better look at him.
jumps out from behind his bush with a lazer and zaps me, but took no further action. I can only assume he'd been watching the situation and had realised what I was up to, because it was a well justified 30 zone (which I always obey) so I fully expected to be busted.
This guy seemed to use his discretion and I respect him for that.
Traffic Cops aren't speed cameras, they're a damn site more useful. I also drive through that section very carefully now, watching the bushes (even tho I don't speed - I'm just paranoid
) If there was a gatso there I could happily waft through in a dream world, mowing down kids at 29.9mph.
My point; though it's taken me long enough to reach it, is these guys do a much better job than many of us (including myself at times) give them credit for.
*'has a go' isn't a very good way of saying what I meant, but eloquence isn't my strong point.
the clean up must be all the bits from the smashed cars thrown into the gutters and fields .when a bib believes the crap about speed kills you will never win.they are like football refs they cant use discretion (unless the tv cameras are present ).I believe that you should have a record of your milage kept at dvla so that when you get pulled by one of these police people or partnership **** and they tell you you are a danger to society for exceeding the limit by a few mph and they want to relieve you of £60 and three points you can point out your milage to accident rate which in my case is in excess of 3/4 of a million miles with no accidents some speding convictions along the way and have never once been offered any thing but point and fines(all in the interest of safety).How have I achieved this is mainly down to my driving skills and the fact that I know I am Mortal.I make sure I allow for the fact that I Am totally invisible to all other road users except for the tax man sorry I ment BIb .Any police person want to argue the case ?.que by the left please. The police do a good job in the main but they must be seen to be free of political indocterination by any party or person be it blair or the chief cun***able.We must defeat the way the cameras are used for taxing us at every turn.Just monday I had a chinese woman on the a50 (bmw 3 series )just off the m1 who I believe would have caused a crash had I not allowed her to check all the exits on a round about by stopping all the traffic behind me thus allowing her with out looking to turn cutting across the flow of traffic and not cause a crash .my mrs was fuming and was amazed that I was totally calm.I told her that the woman did exactly as I thought she would ,when I thought she would I then pulled over into the slow lane allowing the other cars to overtake me with the first chap making a mad gesture and the dead cert accident was thus avoided. I didnt gain any points but got great satisfaction from the event .The worst out come for me was if she turned left and I had held up the cars behind me but I am willing to face this in my unsmashed car.Case rested I have many more instances but I doubt the bib have any time for me if I do 36 in A 30 soory they have just reduced the road to 20mph my mistake .I like many other people try my best to stick to the limits but I am human unlike some we know .keep safe all the best.any one agree?.I can oten tell my mrs long before that the driver ahead will pullout often before they know them selves .The other week I was comming home south bound on the M1 between junction 29 28 in the out side lane being buzzed by a subaru I saw a police patrol car in the near side lane all three lane had heavy traffic in them I over took the cars in the out side lane and said to my mrs I bet a tenner the subaru will be pulled I pulled in to the middle lane only when it was safe to do so the subaru over took me and pulled in ahead about 30 yrds the police then pounced on him pulling him before the slip road exit at 28 she asked why I thought he would be pulled I said to her he didnt show them respect and the fact that his car has a wing on the back would doom him and it did ps she still owes me a tenner! any how I degress che
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