A Random Handbrake Question
Discussion
Hi all,
Sorry if this is a n00b question. The Monaro has a handbrake unlike any other car I've driven and I'm just wondering why. In all the other cars I've driven, increasing your pull on the handbrake gives a proportional increase in the stopping force. However, in the Monaro, if the car is rolling you increase your pull and initially nothing happens. Then very suddenly (like a switch being flicked) you get 100% of the handbrake force.
I used to have a habit in other cars of applying the handbrake just as the car was about to roll to a stop. The first time I tried this in the Monaro I was nearly thrown through the windscreen.
So what's going on here? How does the handbrake on the beast work and why on earth is it like that? I can't imagine it being very mechanically sympathetic. I'd hate to be using it to slide the rear on a drift day or similar, I'd be terrified of wrecking my brakes.
Ken
Sorry if this is a n00b question. The Monaro has a handbrake unlike any other car I've driven and I'm just wondering why. In all the other cars I've driven, increasing your pull on the handbrake gives a proportional increase in the stopping force. However, in the Monaro, if the car is rolling you increase your pull and initially nothing happens. Then very suddenly (like a switch being flicked) you get 100% of the handbrake force.
I used to have a habit in other cars of applying the handbrake just as the car was about to roll to a stop. The first time I tried this in the Monaro I was nearly thrown through the windscreen.
So what's going on here? How does the handbrake on the beast work and why on earth is it like that? I can't imagine it being very mechanically sympathetic. I'd hate to be using it to slide the rear on a drift day or similar, I'd be terrified of wrecking my brakes.
Ken
Whatever you do, DON'T do a handbrake turn! You will brake (!) it. Apparently it works on a ratchet thingy, and as the wheels roll forwards, the grip on the brakes is increased - thats why you feel the lever coming up as the car rolls forward. If you pull the handbrake on at any speed, the results can be catastrophic. At least thats how it was explained to me anyway.
Yeah I wouldnt pull it on while rolling.
If you want to do a handbrake turn do a Finnish flick, or similar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick
If you want to do a handbrake turn do a Finnish flick, or similar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_flick
J. J. said:
Whatever you do, DON'T do a handbrake turn!
Eep, sounds scary. Interesting to watch the top-gear Monaro drift video here:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeDl2jrLBHg
at 5:06 you can hear the "Handbrake on while moving" bleep. I weep for that car!
J. J. said:
Whatever you do, DON'T do a handbrake turn! You will brake (!) it. Apparently it works on a ratchet thingy, and as the wheels roll forwards, the grip on the brakes is increased - thats why you feel the lever coming up as the car rolls forward. If you pull the handbrake on at any speed, the results can be catastrophic. At least thats how it was explained to me anyway.
I think it's safe to disregard that advice. Not sure what a 'ratchet thingy' might be, but I'm fairly sure there isn't one. Probably the bite is caused by a leading shoe braking arrangement.stevieturbo said:
Why on earth would you pull the handbrake on before the car is stopped anyway ??
A lingering habit from when I was driving around in £500 worth of Astra about five years ago. The car was completely screwed, when hot it would stall if you lifted off the gas. So I had learned to perform heel&toe shifts as well as using the handbrake to bring the car to a halt at low speeds so that I could maintain some throttle pressure.
K
merge said:
" So I had learned to perform heel&toe shifts as well as using the handbrake to bring the car to a halt at low speeds so that I could maintain some throttle pressure."
and watch the folk behind wonder wtf's going on, you're stopping without brake lights
Yeah, not ideal really. I wonder if the yoof of today still has to go through the rite of passage that is owning a farked car. There was no way I could afford to have it fixed! I had such good times in that car, such as unexpected and massive lift off oversteer in the wet and the pleasure of driving it with a broken clutch cable on one occassion.
Edited by kjmac on Sunday 15th June 19:27
Edited by kjmac on Monday 16th June 01:03
It does what it says on the tin.
This is one BAD habit that my other half and I disagree about all the time. She insists on pulling on the handbrake before coming to stop. She doesn't even bother to press the button to disengage the ratchet, resulting in an agonising series of clicks.
Unless performing 180 or J turns, then the 'handbrake' should only be applied once stationary.
STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!
This is one BAD habit that my other half and I disagree about all the time. She insists on pulling on the handbrake before coming to stop. She doesn't even bother to press the button to disengage the ratchet, resulting in an agonising series of clicks.
Unless performing 180 or J turns, then the 'handbrake' should only be applied once stationary.
STOP DOING IT!!!!!!!
kjmac said:
stevieturbo said:
Why on earth would you pull the handbrake on before the car is stopped anyway ??
A lingering habit from when I was driving around in £500 worth of Astra about five years ago. The car was completely screwed, when hot it would stall if you lifted off the gas. So I had learned to perform heel&toe shifts as well as using the handbrake to bring the car to a halt at low speeds so that I could maintain some throttle pressure.
K
I don't get it - if you are heel n toe'ing correctly why would you need to use the handbrake at all? You should be able to comfortably hit all three pedals without resorting to the handbrake.
As for the yes/no to using the handbrake when moving, I'm firmly 100% in the camp that say "no". Depending on the setup the handbrake can operate the calipers in different ways (some cars even have a different set of calipers just for the handbrake). Generally the handbrake activation is considerably weaker than the normal brake setup and constant use whilst moving will at best start to stretch cables and cause additional wear.
Even performing J turns - cars that are set up for this (say a rally or stunt car) have the handbrake connected up to the rears via a conventional hydraulic feed identical to the foot brake. I'd strongly recommend not doing this with a stock handbrake brake setup.
(I've driven a tvr that had failed front brakes and besides being completely terrifying was damn good fun iyswim
) I would say that it should only be used either whilst not moving or in a dire emergency.
As for putting it on without pressing the button (causing the horrid ratchet click).. well I always use the button and then give it a tug to engage one click (to be sure). On watchdog a while back they had cases where vauxhall astras and vectras were having their handbrakes slip off - almost all cases were down to the user pressing the button - VX said you should not press the button when applying. My guess is that this is to make sure the ratchet has engaged properly. Ok, fair enough but the number of viewers who wrote in including some "professional" or "advanced" drivers were shocking. Most were saying "I've been told on my police training to press the button yadada yadada yadada". What stunned me was that on my advanced driving you were told to leave the bloddy car in gear too and lock the steering wheel in an "appropriate" position so to use the kerb to prevent rolling. You *assume* the handbrake will fail is due to nothing else that parking up after use the rear brakes will expend and then contract causing the hand brake to release.
Grrr...
ads_green said:
I don't get it - if you are heel n toe'ing correctly why would you need to use the handbrake at all? You should be able to comfortably hit all three pedals without resorting to the handbrake.
The handbrake was only used at very low speeds, more so when I wasn't comfortable with heel&toe. I absolutely agree that when you've developed the muscle memory to work all three pedals at once you don't need to use the handbrake slowing to a stop and maintaining throttle.
I really enjoyed heel&toe shifts when I had my VX220 and would perform them naturally during everyday driving. When making more enthusiastically progress it was hugely satisfying to blip your way down the gears when braking into a corner. The pedal offset in the monaro makes this impossible though if you're performing h&t by rolling the outer edge of your right foot.
I still double-declutch through, sounds awesome too
brrap, brapp 
The handbrake on these cars is just some basic shoes that run inside the rear disc hubs, nothing to do with the rear calipers. They're very basic, and don't have much of a champfer, hence the grabby feel. Not sure how well they would hold up to h/brake turns TBH?!?! Why would you need to, just use the throttle!!!
Monnington said:
The handbrake on these cars is just some basic shoes that run inside the rear disc hubs, nothing to do with the rear calipers. They're very basic, and don't have much of a champfer, hence the grabby feel. Not sure how well they would hold up to h/brake turns TBH?!?! Why would you need to, just use the throttle!!!
Very true I guess. More torque than traction. By a long way!
kjmac said:
I really enjoyed heel&toe shifts when I had my VX220 and would perform them naturally during everyday driving. When making more enthusiastically progress it was hugely satisfying to blip your way down the gears when braking into a corner. The pedal offset in the monaro makes this impossible though if you're performing h&t by rolling the outer edge of your right foot.
Yes - Lotus do know how to setup a pedal box just right. I would have preferred some adjustment as the brake and clutch were a little close together making heel n toe with left foot braking a bit of a tap dance.
[quote]
I still double-declutch through, sounds awesome too
brrap, brapp [/quote]
I'm really worried I'm going to come accross all moaning but I really wouldn't advise double de-clutch on gearboxes with decent sychro mesh. All you are doing is wearing out the synchro's clutch cones.
ads_green said:
kjmac said:
I really enjoyed heel&toe shifts when I had my VX220 and would perform them naturally during everyday driving. When making more enthusiastically progress it was hugely satisfying to blip your way down the gears when braking into a corner. The pedal offset in the monaro makes this impossible though if you're performing h&t by rolling the outer edge of your right foot.
Yes - Lotus do know how to setup a pedal box just right. I would have preferred some adjustment as the brake and clutch were a little close together making heel n toe with left foot braking a bit of a tap dance.
[quote]
I still double-declutch through, sounds awesome too
brrap, brapp I'm really worried I'm going to come accross all moaning but I really wouldn't advise double de-clutch on gearboxes with decent sychro mesh. All you are doing is wearing out the synchro's clutch cones.
[/quote]
That's b******s, wear on the syncro cones is reduced if you double de-clutch with the right timing. I've been doing it all my life with cars that I keep for many years and my gearboxes have never needed attention.
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