Trailers and the Law
Discussion
Ok then how about this one
I have a company van , a discovery commercial ( looks just like a normal discovery but with vary black windows)
I also use it for personal use towing a car trailer and race car
(under the towing limit for the vehicle)
now if i was towing for company use id need a tacho in the car, but as its personal use im ok ?
if im right and i get pulled how do i prove its for personal use ?
although its a company van im a director and the only sigh writing relates to the race team ( me and pops)
ta
G
I have a company van , a discovery commercial ( looks just like a normal discovery but with vary black windows)
I also use it for personal use towing a car trailer and race car
(under the towing limit for the vehicle)
now if i was towing for company use id need a tacho in the car, but as its personal use im ok ?
if im right and i get pulled how do i prove its for personal use ?
although its a company van im a director and the only sigh writing relates to the race team ( me and pops)
ta
G
You are correct in what you say that if you had of been 'on business use' then you would have needed a Tacho......quite a few are fitted to Discos that are towing these I4W trailers on company business when they are towing another Disco etc.
All i can say is that you will just have to explain if/when stopped and even better if you have any documentary proof....eg, a letter from your employer etc.
Nice to see someone that knows the law and is acting responsibly in relation to Tachos and towing.
All i can say is that you will just have to explain if/when stopped and even better if you have any documentary proof....eg, a letter from your employer etc.
Nice to see someone that knows the law and is acting responsibly in relation to Tachos and towing.
Tony
Where do you get information like this though? I'd have had no idea that this was the case (not that I do it anyway). Are there leaflets and stuff you can get? It's a quandary because of course ignorance of the law is no defence, but on the other hand you don't know what you don't know (if you see what I mean
).
I bought a Highway Code for the first time in 20 years last week, but must admit I've not opened it yet.
Where do you get information like this though? I'd have had no idea that this was the case (not that I do it anyway). Are there leaflets and stuff you can get? It's a quandary because of course ignorance of the law is no defence, but on the other hand you don't know what you don't know (if you see what I mean
). I bought a Highway Code for the first time in 20 years last week, but must admit I've not opened it yet.
There are various books that deal with this but there is one book in particular which costs about £5-6 called the 'Traffic Officers companion'.
Its just a small book that lots of Police tend to buy because its a useful aid and they have different ones with general law and theres one for Custody procedure etc.
I only found out about the law on trailers etc when i joined the Traffic unit...its bread and butter stuff to us now but not much call to know it when working on Division.
I will check an old copy of mine to see where you can get it from.
We all use a much better publication now and its called Hughes guide. Fantastic book which is easy to read and it gets updated every 6 months with amendmants...costs about £15 to buy and about £8 a year for the amendmants.
Its just a small book that lots of Police tend to buy because its a useful aid and they have different ones with general law and theres one for Custody procedure etc.
I only found out about the law on trailers etc when i joined the Traffic unit...its bread and butter stuff to us now but not much call to know it when working on Division.
I will check an old copy of mine to see where you can get it from.
We all use a much better publication now and its called Hughes guide. Fantastic book which is easy to read and it gets updated every 6 months with amendmants...costs about £15 to buy and about £8 a year for the amendmants.
thanuk said:
The trouble is he's his own employer so would the document hold any weight?
There must be something else that he can have......race cards etc etc, but ultimately, if it went to Court i cant see him getting convicted if the full facts were to come out.(Common sense prevails).
tonyrec said:
You are correct in what you say that if you had of been 'on business use' then you would have needed a Tacho......quite a few are fitted to Discos that are towing these I4W trailers on company business when they are towing another Disco etc.
All i can say is that you will just have to explain if/when stopped and even better if you have any documentary proof....eg, a letter from your employer etc.
Nice to see someone that knows the law and is acting responsibly in relation to Tachos and towing.
You do not need a tacho for a Land Rover as long as its within its towing limits.I questioned this after my long drawn out bull sh#t case of breaking the law towing.If anyone would care to correct me to changes in the law in the last couple of years i'd be really pleased to know.This law written back in the 60's only stands on a vehicle called a "Land Rover"(well i did when i was nicked)
pawsmcgraw said:
You are correct in what you say that if you had of been 'on business use' then you would have needed a Tacho......quite a few are fitted to Discos that are towing these I4W trailers on company business when they are towing another Disco etc.
All i can say is that you will just have to explain if/when stopped and even better if you have any documentary proof....eg, a letter from your employer etc.
Nice to see someone that knows the law and is acting responsibly in relation to Tachos and towing.
You do not need a tacho for a Land Rover as long as its within its towing limits.I questioned this after my long drawn out bull sh#t case of breaking the law towing.If anyone would care to correct me to changes in the law in the last couple of years i'd be really pleased to know.This law written back in the 60's only stands on a vehicle called a "Land Rover"(well i did when i was nicked)
I appreciate what you say but as far as iam aware, in this example, we are talking about vehicles with a combined weight of over 3,500kgs for business use. They are thenclassed as a Goods vehicle for the purpose of the act and therefore require that driver records be kept, in this case with a Tachograph.
Do a search on threads about trailers and prosecution for over weight. I posted a lot of legislation covering this and towing cars on trailers some months ago. Most of what you need to know is on there. I did not cover the legislation for Tacos thouh and as far as I am aware Tony is absolutely correct in what he says about the requirement for goods purposes and the 3500kg weight for intsallation of Tacho equipment.
to all you helpfull officers of the law,it may be worth looking into it as the words Land Rover are the key to it.You are not bound to a tacho within the towing limits of the vehicle and obviously it goes over the 3.5t gtw by a long way.I found out this as when i was going through my hassles someone in a previous case had been found not guilty for this very reason....bizzare!I'm most curious but i do not have any relevant info at my finger tips so i have nothing to back up what i know i was told.
I came across Aston Martins transportation vehicle a while back.They had a v8 disco and a monster trailer all enclosed.They did this so they could collect 2 tonne plus cars and tow them legally without a tacho....there legal expert found this was a loophole in the law.They could tow 4 tonnes plus the weight of the LR without a tacho and the driver who i talked to was 100% clear on the law.He said they even took the whole rig to the dot to get them to see if it was legal.....it was.(that came from AM's driver)
I came across Aston Martins transportation vehicle a while back.They had a v8 disco and a monster trailer all enclosed.They did this so they could collect 2 tonne plus cars and tow them legally without a tacho....there legal expert found this was a loophole in the law.They could tow 4 tonnes plus the weight of the LR without a tacho and the driver who i talked to was 100% clear on the law.He said they even took the whole rig to the dot to get them to see if it was legal.....it was.(that came from AM's driver)
I will dig out some more info next week when im at work.......a trailer is a trailer no matter how it is dressed and a cut off weight is there for that very reason.
We have convicted people for this on more than one occasion and im sure that the Land Rover dealers in the area would know of any loopholes without going to the extra expence.
Leave it with me!
>> Edited by tonyrec on Saturday 30th August 10:10
We have convicted people for this on more than one occasion and im sure that the Land Rover dealers in the area would know of any loopholes without going to the extra expence.
Leave it with me!
>> Edited by tonyrec on Saturday 30th August 10:10
pawsmcgraw said:
to all you helpfull officers of the law,it may be worth looking into it as the words Land Rover are the key to it.
Unfortunately, the words Land Rover do not appear in the Act as an exemption...it goes by definitions of a vehicle and Maximum Gross vehicle weights/Drawing/Train weights.
So acording to what is available in information to the Police,AM are illegal using a Disco V8 to tow anything 1.4 tonnes or over for financial gain now without a tacho?(which they are cos' theyre collecting customers cars and delivering theyre own vehicles) Does the words Land Rover refer to anything regarding tractors/agricultural vehicles?
I know the case in question was thrown out because it was "a Land Rover",just can't remember exactly the terms.
cheers indeed
I know the case in question was thrown out because it was "a Land Rover",just can't remember exactly the terms.
cheers indeed
pawsmcgraw said:
So acording to what is available in information to the Police,AM are illegal using a Disco V8 to tow anything 1.4 tonnes or over for financial gain now without a tacho?(which they are cos' theyre collecting customers cars and delivering theyre own vehicles) Does the words Land Rover refer to anything regarding tractors/agricultural vehicles?
I know the case in question was thrown out because it was "a Land Rover",just can't remember exactly the terms.
cheers indeed
The laws relating to what vehicles require is governed by their weight depending on their use and also the calssificatiion to which they belong.
Classification of vehicles is complex and comes under headings such as.
1.Motor car
2.Heavy motor car
3.Motor tractor
4.Light locomotive
5.Heavy locomotive.
These vehicle classifications cover every conceivable vehicle on the road in relation to its weight and its use, whether for passenger transport or for goods or a mixture of both.
There are sub classifications such as 'Dual purpose vehicles' and works trucks (fork lift type stuff and dumper trucks etc).
Landrover is classed as a Dual purpose vehicle
as it can be used for either passenger or goods or a mixture of both and is also versatile in its use either on roads or off.
A landrover by definition is classed as a 'motor car'
Section 185 Road Traffic Act 1988 defines this as
.... motor car means a mechanically propelled vehicle, not being a motorcycle or invalid carriage, which is itself constructed to carry a load or passengers and their effeects and the weight of which unladen-
(a) if it is constructed solely for the carrige of passengers and their effects, is adapted to carry not more than 7 passengers exclusive of the driver and is fitted with tyres of such type as may be specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State, does not exceed 3050 Kgs,
(b) if it is constructed or adapted for use for the conveyance of goods or burden of any description does not exceeed 3050Kg if the vehicle carries a container or containers for holding for the purposes of its propulsion any fuel which is wholly gaseous at 17.5 degrees Celsius under a pressure of 1.013 bar or plant and materials for producing such fuel,
(C) does not exceed 2540 Kgs in a case not falling within sub paragraph (a) or (b) above...
Tachographs must be fitted to vehicles which are
1) Passenger vehicles and other motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry more than 12 passengers.
2) Goods vehicles - locomotives, motor tractors, any motor vehicle constructed so that it may be used as an articulated vehicle and other motor vehicles constructed or adapted to carry goods other than passengers' effects.
Tachographs are to exercise control over drivers hours and a number of exemptions are provided for. Amongst these are some breakdown vehicles.
The exemption found for having a tachograph fitted to a landrover may well come from its sub classifictaion as a dual purpose vehicle and also may have the exemption of breakdown/recovery vehicle if it is being used as such.
This however will not give the vehicle exemptions from being overweight when pulling a load and trailer in excess of the permitted weight for the fitting and use of Tachograph heads and also that for the permitted design weights on the vehicles manufacturers plate (vin plate). If the vehicle combination (towing, trailer and carried vehicle) plus any load or effects on or in any of them, exceed the total train weight for the vehicle, there will be a problem, not of keeping drivers hours or not having a tachograph fitted but of being overweight alone which attracts heavy penalties.
Towing your own goods and nothing else does not exempt you from a tachograph. The vehicle and operator may well be subject of operators licensing as well under a restricted operators licence for this very purpose.
This is a complex subject and very difficult to understand. There are a few loopholes but by using one loophole to overcome a specific problem, you may well fall foul of another and different offence so be careful!
>> Edited by madcop on Saturday 30th August 13:34
[quote]Towing your own goods and nothing else does not exempt you from a tachograph. The vehicle and operator may well be subject of operators licensing as well under a restricted operators licence for this very purpose.[/quote]
So does that still mean i'm ok dragging the tasmin behind the company disco van at the weekend without one? it is under the towing limit and gvw buts probably over 3.5 tons gvw
So does that still mean i'm ok dragging the tasmin behind the company disco van at the weekend without one? it is under the towing limit and gvw buts probably over 3.5 tons gvw
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