Eurosport and Ducati Consultant

[G Man]

Watched the Eurosport coverage of qualifying today, there was a very interesting interview with Alan Jenkins who I think worked for Footwork and Stewart in F1 but now consults for Ducati. They covered the recent test where the GP8 and GP9 carbon fibre chassis was tested.

The 2008 Duke had engine management issues and Ducati went back to the 2007 spec engine and management. At Donnington they have sorted the 2008 engine, smoother power delivery.

They tested a carbon chassis which is the way Ducati will go for 2009 because "it gives more options re stiffness and layout"

So are we entering a new bike era of carbon chassis.

Another question will Ducati do another Desmo RR ? Answer Not very often because of the hassle


PS There was a classic shot of Stoner setting fastest lap in qualifying whilst passing Melandri whom looked like he was riding on ice with slick, looking at him as he was passing and shaking his head with distain

[Rocket Pepper]

Carbon chassis could be the way to go for all teams. Though I can't help but assume Japanese manufacturers GP bikes always look similar to their production super bikes. Maybe this is why the Japanese have stayed with their extruded aluminium frames for so long. Let's not forget John Britten was using carbon fibre forks in the early 90's, eventually finding success with them. Food for thought. Maybe Ducati will be the first manufacturer to produce a road legal carbon fibre chassis super bike. I can't help but think Ducati might have such a plan up their sleeve.

Where other manufacturers are concerned, I don't see an advantage in the great scheme of things. Are carbon chassis' easier to make, and are they less expensive than current chassis'? Is there a weight advantage, where a lighter chassis allows heavier components elsewhere, given there's a minimum weight requirement? I don't see it. Then it must come down to how the carbon chassis would handle. That's something Ducati clearly can't define technically without leaving the final say, and decision to race it next season if we are to believe MCN, to their numero uno rider Casey Stoner. If that's the case it suggests all other manufacturers will only know if carbon chassis' work better than aluminium chassis' by giving them to their riders to find out.

[FourWheelDrift]

I got the impression from the conversation with Alan Jenkins that the carbon fibre was only at the front end of the chassis.

[G Man]

FourWheelDrift said:

I got the impression from the conversation with Alan Jenkins that the carbon fibre was only at the front end of the chassis.

I didn't hear that but it could be

[Chilli]

Excuse my ignorance here gents, but when we say chassis, are we talking about the frame? Anyway whatever it is, I'd have thought that this would give an amazing weight advantage, but aren't there strict rules on the weight. If this is so, what's the advantage?

Cheers.

[G Man]

Chilli said:

Excuse my ignorance here gents, but when we say chassis, are we talking about the frame? Anyway whatever it is, I'd have thought that this would give an amazing weight advantage, but aren't there strict rules on the weight. If this is so, what's the advantage?

Cheers.

I listened to the interview again, Alan Jenkins acknowledged a Carbon fibre chassis, the reason he suggested is it gives them options on chassis stiffness and layout of the bike ie weight distribution

[FourWheelDrift]

Chilli said:

Excuse my ignorance here gents, but when we say chassis, are we talking about the frame? Anyway whatever it is, I'd have thought that this would give an amazing weight advantage, but aren't there strict rules on the weight. If this is so, what's the advantage?

Cheers.

Yes.

There would be an advantage of weight, but I think any extra weight to bring it up to minimum could be distributed around the bike wherever they wanted it to make the bike handle better or suit the riders style.

[Rocket Pepper]

The chassis according to MCN's interview with Jenkins, joins the steering head with the engine via the cylinder heads. Jenkins explained Ducati usually have the swing arm attached to the engine, so the engine is a stressed member.

I don't see any advantage through redistribution of weight, as Jenkins explained one of the hardest things to overcome was mounting stuff to the carbon fibre. Once you've got your carbon chassis, that's your chassis. I'm sure Ducati have come up with ways to engineer out certain restrictions that could evolve with using a carbon chassis, but you can't just change where something fits by welding in a new bracket or tube. Jenkins went on to say a complete redesign of the engine was necessary to enable mounting it to a carbon chassis.

[IforB]

Cagiva tried it back in the 90's. It was shelved after it was realised that it was too difficult to make changes and that it was actually too stiff. Maybe the advance in tyre technology means this isn't such a problem?

Whilst carbon frames are lighter than extruded ali ones, as you have to add big lumps of metal into them to attach things to, a lot of the weight benefit is lost.

Ducati seem to be right on the cutting edge though and are obviously looking at the next leap in technology. Great to see. I love the technical aspects of motogp as much as the actual racing, so with new ideas coming through it again shows how much better a sport it is compared to the nonsense that is F1, where all the radical ideas have simply been banned.

[G Man]

Rocket Pepper said:

The chassis according to MCN's interview with Jenkins, joins the steering head with the engine via the cylinder heads. Jenkins explained Ducati usually have the swing arm attached to the engine, so the engine is a stressed member.

This makes sense

Rocket Pepper said:

I don't see any advantage through redistribution of weight, as Jenkins explained one of the hardest things to overcome was mounting stuff to the carbon fibre. Once you've got your carbon chassis, that's your chassis. I'm sure Ducati have come up with ways to engineer out certain restrictions that could evolve with using a carbon chassis, but you can't just change where something fits by welding in a new bracket or tube. Jenkins went on to say a complete redesign of the engine was necessary to enable mounting it to a carbon chassis.

Hasn't CF technology with different weave and patterns moved on so they can build the same part, same weight and different levels of stiffness.
Agreed you cannot move components.
Ducati tests say the GP9 is 1/2 sec per lap quicker, assumming there was no hedging with lightweight bikes etc its a good gain.

[Rocket Pepper]

The interview in MCN was quite telling I thought reading between the lines. Ducati said it had to be faster, and not just by one lap, or they would have shelved the project. But they wouldn't know how fast until Stoner rode it, and they took his approval too as the final say. Very confusing. Especially so when they explain it's cost a lot of money to redevelop the motor too.

If Ducati were gambling on it being faster, that's a hell of a gamble if it really was a big expensive project. I really do think 'smoke and mirrors'. They have to have something more up their sleeve. Could this be the way for their next generation super bikes I have to wonder. Seems an awful lot of effort to gain handling prowess for faster times. After all, I'm pretty sure carbon or alloy makes little difference to times if either are developed on target. What after all can the carbon frame offer that an alloy one can't? Anything design wise, advantage wise, I'm sure is possible from either type of chassis.

I smell a carbon road bike!