Sensible upgrades - do they kill value?

[NDT]

OK, so (hypothetically) if I were to spend 8k or so on a fairly old de Dion car towards the end of the summer, this might get me a cross flow engined car from the early 90s. Unless I have read various other posts wrongly of course...

Age doesn't bother me, but having an ancient cast iron engine would.
If I then swapped this for something sensible (a 2.0 Ford Sigma, maybe a 1.8 K) would this affect the value much?

In my eyes it would be a sensible thing to do, apart from no longer having the original engine.

[Gingerbread Man]

Upgrades is a common thing in the seven world.

As long as it's not a special, limited edition, keep as it is of it'll not be the car it was once known as.

I don't see a problem with it. The design has changed slightly over the years as time grows on but the basic concept stayed the same. Bar modernising, a seven is a seven.

My take ....

[OJ]

Agreed, modifying a Seven is not like modifying another car. The upgrades tend to be taken as a bonus to a purchaser (assuming they're of either a recognised and commonly used brand or of good quality).

Be warned though, a mod may not increase value in proportion with how much it costs...

[Shaun_E]

Swapping a Crossflow for a Sigma or K is not a trivial exercise and would end up with a fairly unusual car which in turn might make it difficult to sell. A more common swap would be to a Zetec which is more straightforward and there are lots of parts available to make this happen (Raceline sell pretty much everything you would need although there are other sources). Zetec cars seem to sell OK. If you wanted a K-series then you would be better off looking for a cheap K engined car - a 1.4 might be in the £8k - £9k range and swap to a bigger K engine later. Again 1.4 to 1.8 upgrades have been done many times and there is lots of advice on this available on www.blatchat.com (you need to join the 7 club to post but you can read/search for nothing).

[adamh]

OJ said:

Be warned though, a mod may not increase value in proportion with how much it costs...

Yep - infact, they may not increase value much at all.
Consider an old crossflow with 5 speed box, trunnions, std brakes, 5 speed, no LSD, clams/old front suspension, full screen, shyte seats, std bar.
Spend this on it:
c.£4K on a nice Zetec install.
c.£800 + bodywork on getting cycle wings, new wishbones, and a modern rack(i.e. not the mini one).
c.£1500 on a used 6 speed box.
c.£800 getting a used ZF LSD fitted.
c.£400 on an aeroscreen, mirrors, and half doors.
c.£600 on good front brakes & new rear pads to suit.
c.£270 on an FIA bar.
c.£400 on a set of used Tillets/S-types.

That's pushing £9K on upgrades even with many used parts (call it £8K net after old stuff flogged off) but you should have a nice Zetec car at the end of it. Problem is, it won't be worth much more than a couple, maybe 3 grand more that the crappy old Crossflow cost to buy - so it's a big chunk of money down the drain if you're fussed about resale values.

I think a sensible approach is to find a 1400SS with 6 speed box, maybe an LSD, and who knows, even big brakes, a Stack, and widetrack if you're lucky. £8K is pushing it for a good one of these, but you're certainly in the ball park for what people actually pay for half decent examples.
Then use this as the basis for a faster K engined car. People are always selling uprated K series associated parts cheaply as there's always another level to upgrade a K to.
If you were to spend £8K net on upgrading a 1400SS, you'd have a car worth a damn sight more than you would if you put a Zetec/Sigma motor in an old car.
One thing . . ..try and get a post 96ish car with the new front suspension geometry and progressive rear dampers.

[BertBert]

If you are going for an old kseries for 8k, you will be hard very pushed to find one with any of those bits on.

In terms of economics it's not going to work getting an old caterham and changing out bits to get to a significantly newer spec. It might however be brilliant fun to do if upgrades is your thing

Bert

[Fishy Dave]

I agree with going for a 1400 supersport. I bought one for a price within your budget last year, and have never regretted it. By going for an ex race car I got a decent spec for trackdays, although would have liked a 6 speed box.
I have previously upgraded cars, but I've been so happy with the overall performance I've not done much with this one (tyres, FIA roll bar and a shift light is it). Instead I have spent a bit of money getting it looking better cosmetically.

Fun with a GT3 at 'ring GP

[iguana]

Quite a lot of car for the ££ here-

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/434596.htm

Its been on sale for a while & gradually come down in price & is zetec'd already.

Ok is an old car but surely better than buying an old x flow & upgrading? rip the flares off & it looks a tidy car.

Live axle I dont think is as bad as many folks make out, mine is live & ok is a bit bumpy on awful roads, but that more the 4 link rear end thats a bit difernet & im getting few mods done to that now anyway, but the best handling 7 ive yet driven was live axle, just a v good damper & spring set up.

[Gingerbread Man]

iguana said:

Quite a lot of car for the ££ here-

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/434596.htm

Its been on sale for a while & gradually come down in price & is zetec'd already.

Ok is an old car but surely better than buying an old x flow & upgrading? rip the flares off & it looks a tidy car.

Live axle I dont think is as bad as many folks make out, mine is live & ok is a bit bumpy on awful roads, but that more the 4 link rear end thats a bit difernet & im getting few mods done to that now anyway, but the best handling 7 ive yet driven was live axle, just a v good damper & spring set up.

I was looking at that. Noticed that it's been for sale for a while.

How easy is it to take off the flares and fit some cycle wings? Also, probably a silly question, but it seems that he only has one bucket seat and this seats to be mounted over what the passenger would have for a seat. Very badly worded, but is this a bench seat? Can this be changed?

[Noger]

Flares to cycle is pretty easy. Flares to cycle and not having a load of holes in the side .... is another matter. The options depend on budget, from a re-skin to some rubber grommets

Nice car. Zetec and Live Axle are not too much of a problem, and the live axle's fragility can be got round on a number of fronts. Shims, overfilling, oil seals etc.

No diea about that seat though, it does look like a Tillet/Bench combo

[iguana]

Yeh that seat combo is a tad odd looking, bench is a great set up if you are tall tho, & you could sell on the tillet easy enough, I'd guess the seat base is taken out & hes just left in the bench back & im guessing the owner is a shortie by the set up.

Kinda depends which live axle hes got & dif etc, I've been chatting to various specialists ref my set up & they think the ford live ive got is a cracking dif if I want to go well beyound 200bhp as the torquey vx engine can cause issues with the de-dion on track.

[Noger]

Ah, yes I guess the ultimate Ital live axle upgrade is to the English

Heavier though !

[NDT]

iguana said:

Quite a lot of car for the ££ here-

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/434596.htm

Its been on sale for a while & gradually come down in price & is zetec'd already.

Ok is an old car but surely better than buying an old x flow & upgrading? rip the flares off & it looks a tidy car.

Live axle I dont think is as bad as many folks make out, mine is live & ok is a bit bumpy on awful roads, but that more the 4 link rear end thats a bit difernet & im getting few mods done to that now anyway, but the best handling 7 ive yet driven was live axle, just a v good damper & spring set up.

Interesting.
I'm prejudiced against live axles... but should I be?
How much I'd really prefer de Dion, but obviously I don't know how much real world difference there is.

[NDT]

Shaun_E said:

Swapping a Crossflow for a Sigma or K is not a trivial exercise and would end up with a fairly unusual car which in turn might make it difficult to sell. A more common swap would be to a Zetec which is more straightforward and there are lots of parts available to make this happen (Raceline sell pretty much everything you would need although there are other sources). Zetec cars seem to sell OK. If you wanted a K-series then you would be better off looking for a cheap K engined car - a 1.4 might be in the £8k - £9k range and swap to a bigger K engine later. Again 1.4 to 1.8 upgrades have been done many times and there is lots of advice on this available on www.blatchat.com (you need to join the 7 club to post but you can read/search for nothing).

good point, would go to Zetec rather than Sigma.

[Noger]

NDT said:

I'm prejudiced against live axles... but should I be?
How much I'd really prefer de Dion, but obviously I don't know how much real world difference there is.

Yes.... and no.

Depends on what your "real world" is. Bumpy "b" roads and it is interesting to say the least. Nice flat track, and things are different. You can do a lot to a live axle to make it more palatable on wiggly roads. But generally I think de Dion suits more people.