SBC: What is it that attracts you to this power plant?
Discussion
There has been a lot of talk on here recently about Audi motors, and previously near enough every engine combo has been discussed at one time or another. Lots of folk are keen to bolster their claims for using alternative power units but you don't often get many bigging up the venerable old SBC and I find even myself, a stalwart SBC man, questioning my choice and pondering the merits of other motors ( although I rather like to think that is my inquiring mind at work as opposed to feeling I may have somehow missed the boat ) and so I am curious to know; What say you SBC lovers?
New to the SBC/Ultima world I'm hardly in a position to comment but I suppose its akin to the old ford x-flow (variants 1950's-todate). Lots of history, development, information and results. And currently for the SBC, a really cheap workhorse with endless combinations to choose from. So I suppose its a safe bet, within reason and as the car was originally designed/ has been developed around it, if it floats your boat, why not?
I do know what you are saying though, having messed for years with lots of x flows, essex, pintos and A series motors I was quite brave and built 1848 cc CVH for a Westy a few years back. Basically a hybrid Ford motor, bits of this, that and the other machined to suit, with a hot cam, heads and carbs. I nearly fell over as we saw 172 BHP at the wheels on the dyno... but it was quite a sad moment in a way. That new tech CVH motor was far better and lighter then the X-flow or pinto, ford were correct!!!!
Like anything in this interest, you pays your money and takes your chance.
I think it will be a while before the SBC fades away though!!!!
Just my 2 penneth.
I do know what you are saying though, having messed for years with lots of x flows, essex, pintos and A series motors I was quite brave and built 1848 cc CVH for a Westy a few years back. Basically a hybrid Ford motor, bits of this, that and the other machined to suit, with a hot cam, heads and carbs. I nearly fell over as we saw 172 BHP at the wheels on the dyno... but it was quite a sad moment in a way. That new tech CVH motor was far better and lighter then the X-flow or pinto, ford were correct!!!!
Like anything in this interest, you pays your money and takes your chance.
I think it will be a while before the SBC fades away though!!!!
Just my 2 penneth.
I'm one of those going down the Audi route, but I'm still a huge fan of the SBC.
It just has to be in the right car!
Cobra's and period cars - yes! Ultimas - I'm not so sure!
I just don't see the Ultima as a 'classic car' in the cobra-type-mould. I see it as a balls-out sportscar that should be as light as possible and should exploit modern engineering in the shape of a reliable, high-tech and high-revving injection engine.
The biggest SBC appeal for me is that it delivers huge bang for the bucks... bags of character, makes big power, parts are plentiful and (relatively speaking) cheap!
Sure, an ali block and injection make the SBC a far more attractive proposition, but it's still too compromised for me to use in a modern sportscar.
The LS7's though appear to be the dogs danglies and on paper seem to nail just about every spot required on an Ultima type car. I think they could do with some more revs (although I understand that it will rev more than the factory recommend without much trouble). I'd have one in a heartbeat, but again - the price may be a problem for a short while... at least until they become a little more common.
Obviously this is just my opinion and based on personal preferences... at the end of the day it's up to the individual and what they want their car to 'do'!
It just has to be in the right car!
Cobra's and period cars - yes! Ultimas - I'm not so sure!
I just don't see the Ultima as a 'classic car' in the cobra-type-mould. I see it as a balls-out sportscar that should be as light as possible and should exploit modern engineering in the shape of a reliable, high-tech and high-revving injection engine.
The biggest SBC appeal for me is that it delivers huge bang for the bucks... bags of character, makes big power, parts are plentiful and (relatively speaking) cheap!
Sure, an ali block and injection make the SBC a far more attractive proposition, but it's still too compromised for me to use in a modern sportscar.
The LS7's though appear to be the dogs danglies and on paper seem to nail just about every spot required on an Ultima type car. I think they could do with some more revs (although I understand that it will rev more than the factory recommend without much trouble). I'd have one in a heartbeat, but again - the price may be a problem for a short while... at least until they become a little more common.
Obviously this is just my opinion and based on personal preferences... at the end of the day it's up to the individual and what they want their car to 'do'!
I suppose the simple answer is that you really cant find a more powerful option for the same money.
The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
The other engines have decent power, but the SBC key weapon is the torque.
I have yet to see any Audi/Bmw or similar kick out what a good SBC can, and again the price to increase the power/torque takes serious work, and pushes it up dramatically.
The old SBC can be reworked to be a monster engine without costing the earth.
I know because Ive just done it, and it cost me less than a basic LS7 block . Horses for courses, but maybe thats the same for other owners as well.
The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
The other engines have decent power, but the SBC key weapon is the torque.
I have yet to see any Audi/Bmw or similar kick out what a good SBC can, and again the price to increase the power/torque takes serious work, and pushes it up dramatically.
The old SBC can be reworked to be a monster engine without costing the earth.
I know because Ive just done it, and it cost me less than a basic LS7 block . Horses for courses, but maybe thats the same for other owners as well.
I think the SBC is an awsome engine, masses of power and torque, reliable if you keep on top of it, sounds fantastic even when Idling....
Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
andygtt said:
I think the SBC is an awsome engine, masses of power and torque, reliable if you keep on top of it, sounds fantastic even when Idling....
Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
well theres the price .. have you looked at what a high performance LS7 will set you back?Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
Wilder said:
andygtt said:
I think the SBC is an awsome engine, masses of power and torque, reliable if you keep on top of it, sounds fantastic even when Idling....
Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
well theres the price .. have you looked at what a high performance LS7 will set you back?Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
andygtt said:
Wilder said:
andygtt said:
I think the SBC is an awsome engine, masses of power and torque, reliable if you keep on top of it, sounds fantastic even when Idling....
Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
well theres the price .. have you looked at what a high performance LS7 will set you back?Just the constant smell of fuel, lumpy idle on high powered cars and general lack of refinement (oild leaks etc) that dont really suit it to a supercar IMHO.... but dosnt make it any less of an awsome engine.
Of cause for me the LS range has all the pro's with none of the cons.
d3vine said:
Can someone send me Jeff's LS7 700+hp engine price list? Thanks.
I'm not sure of Jeffs pricing but £14k will get you an ls7 based ultima package including ecu, harness etc of 625 plus hp. You're paying in part for the Ti rods as these are a lot lighter then aftermarket steel items. You'll also get different valvetrain parts, a different cam a reflashed ecu and a rebalanced engine.Wilder said:
I suppose the simple answer is that you really cant find a more powerful option for the same money.
The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
Having experiences in both worlds (2 SBCs, one original AS 450 and then a highly tuned - Dart Block, Jesel valve train etc. - 550 BHP unit; and now a "standard" LS7 with 564 BHP and original Z06 GM ECU and cats, without any internal mods), I can only say that comparing HP figures does not make sense to me. A 560 HP LS7 is a world away from a 550 HP SBC, not only in terms of behaviour (starting, idling, oil/fuel/coolant consumption) but mainly in terms of performance, both power and torque. Out of whatever reasons the SBC figures tend to be constantly overrated, in my case up to -25% difference on the rolling road test compared to dyno sheet claims... And what is even more surprising is driving the car, it is difficult to keep the LS7 at WOT acceleration on the road, no problem with the SBC... The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
I doubt that the chassis and tyres can handle any more power, at least not without serious wheel spin... I usually rev my LS7 to only 6000 (being scared of the power) whereas I tended to rev the SBC to 7500 to get the last bit out of it. So the difference between 560 HP and 600 or 700 must be academic, and is that really worth risking the reliability of the crate engine by changing major internals, and for what??
Much more challenging on my LS7 GTR is now braking (AP brakes maybe good in theory, but without any feel, and that makes it truly unpleasant to drive compared to other sportscars), chassis set up (constant struggle between over and understeer), not assisted steering etc. That all makes it much more difficult to drive decent times on the track, where the others in their GT3´s or Caterhams drive easily circles around you unless you are either a professional driver or willing to drive above your possibilities and risk the car...
The last thing on earth you need is more power than a standard LS7 offers - if you want to stay alive and keep your car in one piece.
Only my opinion, dont want to teach anybody, just trying to save some of your money and maybe your health...
Cheers
ultimaCZ said:
Wilder said:
I suppose the simple answer is that you really cant find a more powerful option for the same money.
The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
Having experiences in both worlds (2 SBCs, one original AS 450 and then a highly tuned - Dart Block, Jesel valve train etc. - 550 BHP unit; and now a "standard" LS7 with 564 BHP and original Z06 GM ECU and cats, without any internal mods), I can only say that comparing HP figures does not make sense to me. A 560 HP LS7 is a world away from a 550 HP SBC, not only in terms of behaviour (starting, idling, oil/fuel/coolant consumption) but mainly in terms of performance, both power and torque. Out of whatever reasons the SBC figures tend to be constantly overrated, in my case up to -25% difference on the rolling road test compared to dyno sheet claims... And what is even more surprising is driving the car, it is difficult to keep the LS7 at WOT acceleration on the road, no problem with the SBC... The LS7 requires some major engine mods to achieve serious power (over 600bhp) and that bumps the price sky high.
I doubt that the chassis and tyres can handle any more power, at least not without serious wheel spin... I usually rev my LS7 to only 6000 (being scared of the power) whereas I tended to rev the SBC to 7500 to get the last bit out of it. So the difference between 560 HP and 600 or 700 must be academic, and is that really worth risking the reliability of the crate engine by changing major internals, and for what??
Much more challenging on my LS7 GTR is now braking (AP brakes maybe good in theory, but without any feel, and that makes it truly unpleasant to drive compared to other sportscars), chassis set up (constant struggle between over and understeer), not assisted steering etc. That all makes it much more difficult to drive decent times on the track, where the others in their GT3´s or Caterhams drive easily circles around you unless you are either a professional driver or willing to drive above your possibilities and risk the car...
The last thing on earth you need is more power than a standard LS7 offers - if you want to stay alive and keep your car in one piece.
Only my opinion, dont want to teach anybody, just trying to save some of your money and maybe your health...
Cheers
Unless you have a baseline to follow for everyone with an SBC, it all depends on whether the dyno figures may or may not be fudged - we know it sometimes happens.
Again, the SBC is comparatively a simple engine of course, but if its fitted with the top notch parts, then its not the SBC your talking about here. I doubt many have had a SBC built to those kind of specs. The LS7 still has parts that aparantly need replacing to get the best out of it. I believe Jeff S, PK or Boosted are possibly the best qualified to say exactly what is and what isnt suitable for the higher outputs, but on an LS7 I believe these mods do not come cheap, and why do they need replacing in the first place?
I believe that was the original point of the thread - not which is better, because your bound to get many different answers.
Edited by Wilder on Wednesday 9th July 00:19
Wilder said:
The LS7 still has parts that aparantly need replacing to get the best out of it. I believe Jeff S, PK or Boosted are possibly the best qualified to say exactly what is and what isnt suitable for the higher outputs, but on an LS7 I believe these mods do not come cheap, and why do they need replacing in the first place?
Um.... Id expect that the reason certain parts need replacing for higher output would be the same reasons you'd replace parts in a SB for higher output.I think the point that Peter (Ultima CZ) was making was that his stock LS7 with cats and stock ECU would outperform a modified (and unreliable, leaky, smelly, hard to start, easy to stop) SB..... and that an unmodified LS7 was more than enough for the Ultima.
Im also not sure what attracts people to the SB, but I think its probably a lot to do with what we are all comfortable with. I was forced to go the LS route because of emissions, and at the time I would have much rather gone for a SB because to me it sounded much simpler, Ive had SB's before so I knew how simple they are - something I could work on etc.
After being forced to go the LS route though, I have seen the light. It is in fact a much easier solution, the ECU looks after everything for you from timing and fuel to protection against problems.... the sensors will shut the engine down if there's impending damage from detonation. Other than that its pretty much change the oil and the plugs and if something goes wrong elsewhere an idiot light will tell you - hook it up to a computer and it will tell you what the fault is. This of course only tells you whats wrong with the systems, it wont tell you if its run a bearing or thrown a rod out the side... but you get my point.
If you guys want to get a feel of how simple the LS engine is, have a look at the "Conversions and Hybrids" forum on LS1tech.com
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2...
and especially this thread http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=818...
and the "PCM Diagnostics and Tuning" section
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=7
You can see that people with all sorts of skill levels are putting LS's into all sorts of cars. If you can put an Ultima together, you've got the skills to do an LS conversion - it really is very simple.
So, in my experience I would have been drawn to the SB because I thought it was an easier solution.
Im not so sure about that.
GM LS2 Crate Engine, includes shipping to SEXP $5,900.00
GM Corvette ECU (sequential injection), with custom wiring harness to fit Ultima Mid Engine or Conventional Musclecar / Street Rod application. Includes modified Drive by wire pedal assy. $2,595.00
Labor to install accessories, Modify valley cover, drill and tap 1/8 NPT for oil presure sender and re-configure for mid engine. (LS2, LS7) $350.00
Custom low mount alt bracket, with Corvette alternator $575.00
Main belt Tensioner $81.00
Main accessory belt $34.00
K&N Air Filter $80.00
Urethane engine mounts and Gen 1 adaptors $200.00
Mass Airflow sensor (without purchase of Harness/ECU) $250.00
Total = $10,065.00
Brand new fuel injected alloy engine.
Crate LS2 is 450HP.... add 14% correction factor as used by AS and that's 517HP.
Over on American Speed's site a comparable engine is:
383 c.i. 500 hp @5600 rpm, 515 ft. lbs. torque @4500 rpm $11,995.00
That's a remanufactured iron block with a carburettor.
<hornets nest stirred>
^^^ prices from an old Schwartz list.
GM LS2 Crate Engine, includes shipping to SEXP $5,900.00
GM Corvette ECU (sequential injection), with custom wiring harness to fit Ultima Mid Engine or Conventional Musclecar / Street Rod application. Includes modified Drive by wire pedal assy. $2,595.00
Labor to install accessories, Modify valley cover, drill and tap 1/8 NPT for oil presure sender and re-configure for mid engine. (LS2, LS7) $350.00
Custom low mount alt bracket, with Corvette alternator $575.00
Main belt Tensioner $81.00
Main accessory belt $34.00
K&N Air Filter $80.00
Urethane engine mounts and Gen 1 adaptors $200.00
Mass Airflow sensor (without purchase of Harness/ECU) $250.00
Total = $10,065.00
Brand new fuel injected alloy engine.
Crate LS2 is 450HP.... add 14% correction factor as used by AS and that's 517HP.
Over on American Speed's site a comparable engine is:
383 c.i. 500 hp @5600 rpm, 515 ft. lbs. torque @4500 rpm $11,995.00
That's a remanufactured iron block with a carburettor.
<hornets nest stirred>
^^^ prices from an old Schwartz list.
Edited by crafty on Wednesday 9th July 03:41
Edited by crafty on Wednesday 9th July 03:42
To me, nothing could be less attractive to put into an Ultima than a SBC. It's the same push-rod, oil-leaking, smoke-belching design that people were using, what.....like 70 years ago!! Yeah...that really screams "supercar" to me.
Are there any modern options out there that others have used in their Ultimas? (To me, the LSX engines hardly qualify as "modern" either....same push-rod, 2 valve/cyl V-8 layout as SBC)
Are there any modern options out there that others have used in their Ultimas? (To me, the LSX engines hardly qualify as "modern" either....same push-rod, 2 valve/cyl V-8 layout as SBC)
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