what car do you like to see become a kit ?

[gargoyle]

what cars would you like to see available as a kit ?
some of mine are

1:Mazda Furai
2:Ultimate Aero
3:Pagani Zonda

[Paul Drawmer]

BMW M1

Made up with V8M engine - for the burble.

[cymtriks]

Caterham 21

But only if they scrap the daft idea of basing it on a Seven chassis and give it a backbone chassis instead then it might actually have decent doors and side windows that open.

What a shame that this car is shelved.

OSCA 2500 GT

Another potential great. Subaru power and curvy styling but sadly shelved.

TVR cerbera / Griffith / Tuscan

Lovely cars ideally suited to the kit treatment (they're very nearly kits anyway!), one out of copyright, but no one making them.

Shame. shame. shame.

Lotus Elan / Elan+2 / Elite

The original late 50's and 60's versions.

Lovely. Easy to turn into a kit. Shelved.

We do seem to make a habit of abandoning nice cars....

Edited by cymtriks on Saturday 12th July 20:31

[Sam_68]

To be fair, both the Elite and the Elan have been produced in kit form (after Lotus stopped producing them as kits, itself, of course). They simply didn't sell well enough for them to prove financially viable.

Personally, I only favour kit replicas if they can be close enough to the original to use similar technology and give similar performance. Copies of old Lotus' are easy - they can be almost identical - and some of the Jag replicas are quite nice, but as much as I love cars like the Miura and Ferrari Dino, I couldn;t bring myself to see a replica as anything other than a nasty, plastic pastiche.

[Joe T]

Ford 3L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_P68
Could even use the old Granada Cossie lump to keep it on theme.
Its an awsome car in the flesh.

Fords RS200 Rally car but with a decent 4WD system, maybe off a Porsche, I know there have been a few in the past, but it needs the 4WD...

How about a Renault 5 turbo 2, could utilise the running gear from some of the dead Alpine/GTA's that are about.

[Fat Richie]

Rochdale GT and MGA.

[tomTVR]

Bizzarrini Ghepardo



Technically i think its in production but i dont think anyone has bought one yet.

[Ferg]

Why infest the kitcar industry with anymore replicas? It doesn't help anyone, just makes people take it less seriously.

[absolutely]

Joe T said:

Ford 3L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_P68
Could even use the old Granada Cossie lump to keep it on theme.
Its an awsome car in the flesh.

Saw that car at Goodwood last year, it is beautiful!

I heard a story about that car and Jim Clark, he was meant to drive it at Brands in April 68 for Alan Mann, he said he would in the off-season but no contract was signed. Colin Chapman signed Jim Clark up for the F2 seaon later on in the year. Clark was told he had to drive for the factory in Hockenheim rather than a favour to Alan Mann. The rest is history.

It is a shame, if he had raced at Brands that weekend, Formula One would be completely different.

[cymtriks]

Ferg said:

Why infest the kitcar industry with anymore replicas? It doesn't help anyone, just makes people take it less seriously.

Plenty of cars have been available as both full production cars and as kits. Most early Lotus cars for example.

None of my suggestions necessarily involve making replicas.

The Lotus models could be put back into production either exactly as original, in which case it be just restarting production, or as an "update" with some features changed to allow for modern engines, taller drivers, ease passage through SVA, use easier to source fittings (lights/handles/switch gear/etc) or just to broaden the appeal.

For example the pop up headlights of an elan+2 would fall foul of some safety laws so a fixed headlight (i.e. Caterham 21 style bonnet) restyling might be called for. It would still be possible to use a lot of original paterns, such as interior trim and the window glass, to help the business case along.

The same goes for the TVR Grifith, these are sufficiently modern that changes wouldn't be needed and the cars could be simply put back into production but in kit form as opposed to fully built, as opposed to replicated. A good addition to the business case would be supplying owners of the originals with spare parts. Only in the longer term would major changes be needed, i.e. LS1 to replace the RV8.

[Paul Drawmer]

Ferg said:

Why infest the kitcar industry with anymore replicas? It doesn't help anyone, just makes people take it less seriously.

I don't see anything wrong with a replica; as in recreation of an original.

How can the perpetrators of the ghastly unworthy copies be persuaded not to use the word replica; when they have only put rip-off body on a shopping car?

Here we go again - I bit the bait.

[Ferg]

cymtriks said:

Plenty of cars have been available as both full production cars and as kits. Most early Lotus cars for example.

I'm fully aware of that, but re-making Lotus' would simply be making replicas, unless Lotus did it. They stopped making kits many, many years ago..

cymtriks said:

None of my suggestions necessarily involve making replicas.

Oh. But I kind of got the feeling that that was what this thread was about....

The kit industry got itself in the state it is now by building replicas. A lot of companies decided it was easier than building original designs. Unless as much development is thrown at replicas as was with the Cobra and Seven rip-offs, any other cars will fall on their face. In my opinion.

[cymtriks]

Ferg said:

cymtriks said:

Plenty of cars have been available as both full production cars and as kits. Most early Lotus cars for example.

I'm fully aware of that, but re-making Lotus' would simply be making replicas, unless Lotus did it. They stopped making kits many, many years ago..

So how do you classify the Caterham 7?

Any previous car can be put back into production, either exactly as original or with a few modifications, and necessarily by the original maker.

Ferg said:

cymtriks said:

None of my suggestions necessarily involve making replicas.

Oh. But I kind of got the feeling that that was what this thread was about....

Not at all.

The thread asks what cars you would like to see become kits.

That is different from asking what cars you would like to see as replicas.

For example if Ford announced that they would supply the Focus as a box full of parts for home assembly would you classify this as a replica Focus?

Or if someone bought the chassis jigs and moulds for a TVR or Lotus and put the car back into production (like Caterham did with the seven) is that a replica, or simply restarting/continuing production?

What about Daewoo using old Vauxhall Astras as the basis for some of their models? Are these "replica" Vauxhalls or is it just an example of one company buying the technology of another?

Ferg said:

The kit industry got itself in the state it is now by building replicas. A lot of companies decided it was easier than building original designs. Unless as much development is thrown at replicas as was with the Cobra and Seven rip-offs, any other cars will fall on their face. In my opinion.

Replicas are overplayed but, IMHO, mainly due to the utter awfullness of most of the kit car world's attempts at styling. God knows what some companies are thinking of.

It must take hundreds of hours to bring even a basic car project to market but it often seems that only a few minutes of that time ever went into the styling. As an engineer this is especially galling as it encourages those who are too stupid to be passable artistically and technically to spout on about some "barrier" between the two camps which somehow prevents technical people from being artist and vice versa. This may make them feel a bit better about their limitations but honestly, if you actually employ engineers who think that some of this "styling" is good for god's sake sack them or don't let them near a styling buck and pay a bit more for an engineer who can actually do the job. Or employ a stylist if you really can't get your mind past the "arts/science" barrier (AKA the "our employees are too thick or lazy or are actively prevented from doing both" barrier).

Just to illustrate the point this horror was actually an attempt at a replica. Not having an original to take moulds off they used their "creativity"....



The guy responsible went bankrupt after spending over 100K apparently. Part of me feels sorry for them, but honestly...

[Joe T]

absolutely said:

Joe T said:

Ford 3L http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_P68
Could even use the old Granada Cossie lump to keep it on theme.
Its an awsome car in the flesh.

Saw that car at Goodwood last year, it is beautiful!

I heard a story about that car and Jim Clark, he was meant to drive it at Brands in April 68 for Alan Mann, he said he would in the off-season but no contract was signed. Colin Chapman signed Jim Clark up for the F2 seaon later on in the year. Clark was told he had to drive for the factory in Hockenheim rather than a favour to Alan Mann. The rest is history.

It is a shame, if he had raced at Brands that weekend, Formula One would be completely different.

Yep I saw it at Goodwood also, struck me that one day would like to have a go at re creating something like that.

Ok on to the Replica Kit Car debate, just getting the fireproof gear on first but a to me the demand for a replica is based around wishing to own a successful car well beyond the reach of the many, this could be on the race track, drivability or styling any combination. Most successful cars were either designed by automotive gurus or had a ton of money thrown at them or earned themselves a good reputation on the track.

Kit cars, well.... to me I think Replicas are really a step away from the Kit car industry so not sure how they effect it? they have a standard to build to based on the original. Oh dear the more I type the worst this sounds.

I am avoiding the whole panel swap kit cars as that to me is nothing more than a bodywork change but again looking up close at the DNA car last year the quality was excellet and again why because they have a benchmark of the original to work to..

I doubt this helped much...

[Ferg]

cymtriks said:

So how do you classify the Caterham 7?

A Caterham.

Edited by Ferg on Sunday 13th July 21:32

[funwithrevs]

cymtriks said:

Just to illustrate the point this horror was actually an attempt at a replica. Not having an original to take moulds off they used their "creativity"....



The guy responsible went bankrupt after spending over 100K apparently. Part of me feels sorry for them, but honestly...

I give up, replica of what???

[rdodger]

Is that really meant to be a Maclaren F1?????

I sort of agree with Ferg. Replicas on the whole are a bad idea, simply because too many of them are not as good as the original and I like kit cars because they are different, not only to main stream cars but to others of the same marque.

Covin 911 replica, all these Ferrari things. Rubbish!

What I do like are the good GT40's, the Hawke Stratos, good Cobra's as they are replicas of cars that you just can't buy and are at least as good as the originals.

I'm looking forward to the Muira and would like to see a Gullwing Merc. I wouldn't buy either though. I think the only one I would like to build would be the Stratos.

[cymtriks]

rdodger said:

Is that really meant to be a Maclaren F1?????

Yes.

There was a long thread about this project a few years ago.

And to answer Ferg's comment:

Ferg said:

re-making Lotus' would simply be making replicas, unless Lotus did it.

Ferg said:

cymtriks said:

So how do you classify the Caterham 7?

A Caterham.

So remaking a Lotus is just making replicas unless Lotus do it but the Caterham, which was originally a remake of the Lotus 7, is a Caterham and not a replica?

You can't have it both ways.

[andygtt]

I agree and disagree with Ferg.... I personaly don't like replicas and often cringe at some of them, but I can see why some would want one and see why there has to always be a place in the kit car scene for replicas.

if anyone can come up with the reason why the 7 and cobra replicas are OK and yet lambo and ferrari replicas are frowned upon I think they could be in to earn a fortune.... it just makes no scense and yet it is so!!!
I mean only Caterham owners frown on locosts... the general public dont and yet they hate lambo replicas!

On topic
I'd like to see the Jag XJ220 (i know there is one but I want to see it at shows) and Batmans car from the 1st of the latest remakes with the joker (seen one on the web but again would love to see it in production).

The Zonda and Maclaren F1 should be left alone unless you can acheive the flawless quality of the originals in all aspects of the build.

[Paul Drawmer]

andygtt said:

<snip> if anyone can come up with the reason why the 7 and cobra replicas are OK and yet lambo and ferrari replicas are frowned upon <snip>.

For me it is all to do with the quality of the car. Is it a ground up re-creation of the original done because the original simply isn't obtainable? Or is it just made to look like the original?

On that basis several of the 'cobra' copies fail, yet there are some really good replicas. The other thing is; the majority of the italian reps also attempt to deceive. They are more about form than substance. Now I'm not a Ferrari fan, but to my mind the replica 250GTOs made up from 250GT chassis are laudable. Mind you a good one is still a huge amount of money, and possibly a waste of a very lovely car!

But the making of replica isn't necessarily about doing it on the cheap, it's more about getting it right. Like the replica Ferrari F1 Sharknose.