Help, won't fire.
Discussion
Hi all,
Need some collective thinking please... just had fitted new piper 285 cam, lifters, rpi stage 3 heads, new rockers. New top end basically. All bolted up TDC, rotor arm at No 1 and No 1 cylinder up so all timed up correctly. Oil pump primed, water filled etc, turns over but will not fire. Checked fuel in and out all ok. Checked sparks on king lead and plugs all is fine. Used half a can of easy start into plenum and still noting note even a bang. So any ideas... lifters we put in dry, we are wondering if they are not doing their job and therefore not opening inlet valves ? Would account for no firing. if its the concencus that it may be the fault best way of solving with least work & expense, my mechanic has suggested to tow start it until it fires! Other unusual thing i noticed when moving the rotar arm on the dizzey with ign on the fuel pump was priming ? Would that be expected or has something gone t*ts up somewhere ? Only other thing we can think of is to remove plugs and inject the fuel in and see if she at least pops. Need to try and sort it as all the turning over we are doing is not good for the new cam !!
Need some input please before I get out the box of matches...
thanks in advance. Time for a few beers me thinks....
Need some collective thinking please... just had fitted new piper 285 cam, lifters, rpi stage 3 heads, new rockers. New top end basically. All bolted up TDC, rotor arm at No 1 and No 1 cylinder up so all timed up correctly. Oil pump primed, water filled etc, turns over but will not fire. Checked fuel in and out all ok. Checked sparks on king lead and plugs all is fine. Used half a can of easy start into plenum and still noting note even a bang. So any ideas... lifters we put in dry, we are wondering if they are not doing their job and therefore not opening inlet valves ? Would account for no firing. if its the concencus that it may be the fault best way of solving with least work & expense, my mechanic has suggested to tow start it until it fires! Other unusual thing i noticed when moving the rotar arm on the dizzey with ign on the fuel pump was priming ? Would that be expected or has something gone t*ts up somewhere ? Only other thing we can think of is to remove plugs and inject the fuel in and see if she at least pops. Need to try and sort it as all the turning over we are doing is not good for the new cam !!
Need some input please before I get out the box of matches...
thanks in advance. Time for a few beers me thinks....
Have you checked the leads are in the correct order..
1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2
Sad that I remember the firing order
must get out more..
Turn the engine over with one of the rocker covers off - do the valves appear to lift OK..
If the easy start did not even get a pop - then it looks like the spark is not in the right place and the fuel might be OK.
Is the coil connected ?
1,8,4,3,6,5,7,2
Sad that I remember the firing order
must get out more..Turn the engine over with one of the rocker covers off - do the valves appear to lift OK..
If the easy start did not even get a pop - then it looks like the spark is not in the right place and the fuel might be OK.
Is the coil connected ?
Understand that the timing marks on the front pulley can be a long way off, have you checked that TDC as marked on the pulley match TCD on the engine. Also are the plugs getting wet ? would think with all that cranking they should be soaking by now if the valves are openingand you have fuel.
May seem an obvious point but have you rechecked the plug leads end up in the right places, if you took them out of the dizzy cap it is easy to get one pot out all the way round.
May seem an obvious point but have you rechecked the plug leads end up in the right places, if you took them out of the dizzy cap it is easy to get one pot out all the way round.
didn't remove leads from dizzy, checked and rechecked leads happy they all ok. Will have 2 remove rocker cover and check if valves moving, hence the thoughts about the lifters not lifting because lack of oil. Coil is connected as otherwise I wouldn't be getting sparks at plugs, unless i have totally missed something in my mind fog 
Would have expected easy start to have at least popped a bit even if timing etc was up the shoot. Timing was set using proper wheel and gauges so do not think thats the root of the problem but could be wrong oc more beer...large case of stella 2 the 1st 1 to solve the problem.
Would have expected easy start to have at least popped a bit even if timing etc was up the shoot. Timing was set using proper wheel and gauges so do not think thats the root of the problem but could be wrong oc more beer...large case of stella 2 the 1st 1 to solve the problem.farrowby said:
Yea they r and now he didn't.... so whats the easy answer without taking it all apart again ? tow it till they fill ?
They should in theory fill them selves with the oil pressure .. but then again .. maybe they won't..Would be easy to confirm by checking the valve action with the rocker covers off and turning over the engine on the starter.
Thoughts . .
1 - Rocker covers off and check whether lifters are working as you're not going to get eough pressure to fill them without getting it running
2 - 180 degrees out (ihad a good friend rebuild his completely and called me because he couldn't get it to start, and it was that simple and he also really knew what he was doing - wood for trees)
3 - Cam timing ?
4 - Bent wire down number 1 to check TDC making sure it's the inlet stroke and not the exhaust
5 - Buy an LS7 engine and put that in (well that's what get's suggestted on every other engine thread
)
1 - Rocker covers off and check whether lifters are working as you're not going to get eough pressure to fill them without getting it running
2 - 180 degrees out (ihad a good friend rebuild his completely and called me because he couldn't get it to start, and it was that simple and he also really knew what he was doing - wood for trees)
3 - Cam timing ?
4 - Bent wire down number 1 to check TDC making sure it's the inlet stroke and not the exhaust
5 - Buy an LS7 engine and put that in (well that's what get's suggestted on every other engine thread
)OK. I have not done alot of the work myself on this had some one in to do it as I am not confident enough to carry out the work/setup timing altough I am starting to wonder if I should have !! The way he described it too me was basically meshing the gears until the rotor arm was pointing to the correct cylinder. Seemed a bit hit and miss to me but he's the mechanic and has apparently done this loads of time s..... nothing more than that no adjustments etc as far as I am aware.
Checked rotor arm and plug leads again this morning and all correct not 180 out.
Have spoken to a knowledgeable mechanic this morning (my uncle) and he says that it may be because the lifters did not evacuate properly, thus leaving the valves open, the car turns over a little faster then i remember thou its been a while since shes been running! With valves open no compression no bang etc.. hes advice was either to start again or leave it for a few days for the valve springs to compress the lifters into there correct place and then try to restart it. So not done anything further to it today and will probably leave it until late tomorrow/ Sat to try starting.
Any further comments/ideas welcomed.
Checked rotor arm and plug leads again this morning and all correct not 180 out.
Have spoken to a knowledgeable mechanic this morning (my uncle) and he says that it may be because the lifters did not evacuate properly, thus leaving the valves open, the car turns over a little faster then i remember thou its been a while since shes been running! With valves open no compression no bang etc.. hes advice was either to start again or leave it for a few days for the valve springs to compress the lifters into there correct place and then try to restart it. So not done anything further to it today and will probably leave it until late tomorrow/ Sat to try starting.
Any further comments/ideas welcomed.
You mentioned lifters in the set of things you replaced, so presumably you followed the normal sensible practice of fitting new lifters with your new cam. You didn't mention filling them so there's no possibility I can see that they're pumped up or over filled. Did you assemble the engine yourself? Did you set the lifter preloads?
Assuming it is mechanically correctly assembled I think ignition timing is the most likely cause of the problem. I suggest you take #1 plug out and turn the engine over slowly by a ratchet on the front pulley with your thumb over #1 plug hole until you feel it blowing out the plug hole. When it stops blowing and starts sucking you've just gone past #1 TDC on the compression cycle, so turn it back to the 'dead' band and you're at roughly TDC. At this point if you take the dizzy cap off and see where the rotor arm is you should find it has just gone past the post with the #1 cylinder HT lead connected. (You don't particularly have to use the #1 cylinder for this but that's the one usually used as a reference for anything to do with engine timing.)
Just as a sanity check, #1 cylinder is the one nearest to the dizzy, the crank rotates clockwise viewed from the front of the car and the dizzy rotates clockwise when viewed from above.
ETA: Oh yes, I've assumed the plugs actually are wet proving you're getting fuel in.
Assuming it is mechanically correctly assembled I think ignition timing is the most likely cause of the problem. I suggest you take #1 plug out and turn the engine over slowly by a ratchet on the front pulley with your thumb over #1 plug hole until you feel it blowing out the plug hole. When it stops blowing and starts sucking you've just gone past #1 TDC on the compression cycle, so turn it back to the 'dead' band and you're at roughly TDC. At this point if you take the dizzy cap off and see where the rotor arm is you should find it has just gone past the post with the #1 cylinder HT lead connected. (You don't particularly have to use the #1 cylinder for this but that's the one usually used as a reference for anything to do with engine timing.)
Just as a sanity check, #1 cylinder is the one nearest to the dizzy, the crank rotates clockwise viewed from the front of the car and the dizzy rotates clockwise when viewed from above.
ETA: Oh yes, I've assumed the plugs actually are wet proving you're getting fuel in.
Edited by GreenV8S on Thursday 17th July 20:17
Yes fitted new everythings, daft not too. I didnt do the work myself so dont know about the answer to the preloads on the lifters but can say that they were fitted dry.
Will try firing her up tomorrow to see if it was the lifters not evacuating. If not then i will be checking in the rockers for movement and the timing.
Thanks for the advice so far !!
Will try firing her up tomorrow to see if it was the lifters not evacuating. If not then i will be checking in the rockers for movement and the timing.
Thanks for the advice so far !!
ok it wont be the lifters, even if they are empty the valve will still open more than enough to allow enough air into to fire the engine, go back to basics, (sorry i am not trying to teach you to suck eggs), take the oil filler off the rocker box, turn the engine over untill you can see the exhaust valve moving (the first rocker you can see) when it moves start looking at the front pulley tdc marker when it comes (shows) tdc this will be 180 out, so turn the engine a full 360 deg more so the tdc marks are inline, the rotor arm should be just past no1 plug lead, at least if you do this you will know it is sparking in the right place, from there if the injector is firing and you have a good spark, i would be looking at the cam timing.
lol ok, fired but not running... had a friend of mine have a look at it and the timing was 180- out but when we fired it hell of a lot of s
t and what looked like steam come out the back, so being the brave heart i am, cut the ignition, am still weighting for the mechanic to come back to me but I have almost had it with him... lol but thats another story!! any ideas, is this normal (bearing in mind its taken him almost 2 months to put it back together grrrrrr) ? no oil in water/water in oil that i can see. new gaskets etc oc were installed, should I just be a bit braver and run it till it clears, but if it were a head gasket didn't want to cook 2 new heads !! Appeared to be a lot of 'water' blown out the exhausts when i fired her up and only run for 20-30 seconds before i bottled it, also, I remember the mechanic filled the water up before putting the exhaust together again so could have been a fair bit of water got into exhaust at the joint which is directly under swirl pot, but steam/smoke started immediately and got worse over the short period of time it was running.
t and what looked like steam come out the back, so being the brave heart i am, cut the ignition, am still weighting for the mechanic to come back to me but I have almost had it with him... lol but thats another story!! any ideas, is this normal (bearing in mind its taken him almost 2 months to put it back together grrrrrr) ? no oil in water/water in oil that i can see. new gaskets etc oc were installed, should I just be a bit braver and run it till it clears, but if it were a head gasket didn't want to cook 2 new heads !! Appeared to be a lot of 'water' blown out the exhausts when i fired her up and only run for 20-30 seconds before i bottled it, also, I remember the mechanic filled the water up before putting the exhaust together again so could have been a fair bit of water got into exhaust at the joint which is directly under swirl pot, but steam/smoke started immediately and got worse over the short period of time it was running.God only knows what cr@p you have inside the cylinder if you've spent all this time trying to get it running. And god only knows what state the plugs are in now. If I were you I'd get it running by whatever means, straight away check you have oil pressure and volts, if that's OK keep it running and try to get all cylinders firing by blipping the throttle. Depending what state it's in you might find it takes several minutes and if it's still misfiring by the time it comes up to temperature you might need to replace the plugs. The main thing to keep an eye on if you have a cat is the cat temperature. Once it's running keep and eye on the cat and if you see it starting to glow switch off and let it cool down.
Other than that, as long as there's water in there you're really not going to have enough load on it to do any damage unless you let it get massively overheated.
Other than that, as long as there's water in there you're really not going to have enough load on it to do any damage unless you let it get massively overheated.
Edited by GreenV8S on Monday 21st July 20:37
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