Discussion
1. There's only really 3 manufacturers in it - Ford, Citroen and Subaru.
2. Out of those, only Ford and Citroen have a shot at winning (at the moment)
3. Loeb is too good. He has now entered Schumacher-esque domination whereby 99 times out of 100 the only reason he won't win is due to mechanical failure or similar
4. Because there's only really 6 drivers in it, there's no characters. Loeb = mundane. I can hardly remember his team-mate's name...Sordo? Hirvonen = mundane, Latvala I have seen on camera about 3 times, Atkinson = mundane. Solberg is the only one with any real passion and given he either can't drive the Subaru anymore or has gone off the boil, he ain't around very much either.
5. There's no British drivers apart from Matthew Wilson and he's not very good.
All of the above mean that the terrestrial channels aren't interested so it goes to obscure satellite.
I still shake my head in dis-belief when that prick who presents it is interviewing a world class driver and thrusts his microphone forward with 'Dave' on it....
2. Out of those, only Ford and Citroen have a shot at winning (at the moment)
3. Loeb is too good. He has now entered Schumacher-esque domination whereby 99 times out of 100 the only reason he won't win is due to mechanical failure or similar
4. Because there's only really 6 drivers in it, there's no characters. Loeb = mundane. I can hardly remember his team-mate's name...Sordo? Hirvonen = mundane, Latvala I have seen on camera about 3 times, Atkinson = mundane. Solberg is the only one with any real passion and given he either can't drive the Subaru anymore or has gone off the boil, he ain't around very much either.
5. There's no British drivers apart from Matthew Wilson and he's not very good.
All of the above mean that the terrestrial channels aren't interested so it goes to obscure satellite.
I still shake my head in dis-belief when that prick who presents it is interviewing a world class driver and thrusts his microphone forward with 'Dave' on it....
Muzzer said:
1. There's only really 3 manufacturers in it - Ford, Citroen and Subaru.
2. Out of those, only Ford and Citroen have a shot at winning (at the moment)
3. Loeb is too good. He has now entered Schumacher-esque domination whereby 99 times out of 100 the only reason he won't win is due to mechanical failure or similar
4. Because there's only really 6 drivers in it, there's no characters. Loeb = mundane. I can hardly remember his team-mate's name...Sordo? Hirvonen = mundane, Latvala I have seen on camera about 3 times, Atkinson = mundane. Solberg is the only one with any real passion and given he either can't drive the Subaru anymore or has gone off the boil, he ain't around very much either.
5. There's no British drivers apart from Matthew Wilson and he's not very good.
All of the above mean that the terrestrial channels aren't interested so it goes to obscure satellite.
I still shake my head in dis-belief when that prick who presents it is interviewing a world class driver and thrusts his microphone forward with 'Dave' on it....
the reason that is it on dave, is that currently the wrc has no promoter, therfore depriving the championship of the opportunity of some proper promotion and therefore the chance to be represented on terrestrial tv.2. Out of those, only Ford and Citroen have a shot at winning (at the moment)
3. Loeb is too good. He has now entered Schumacher-esque domination whereby 99 times out of 100 the only reason he won't win is due to mechanical failure or similar
4. Because there's only really 6 drivers in it, there's no characters. Loeb = mundane. I can hardly remember his team-mate's name...Sordo? Hirvonen = mundane, Latvala I have seen on camera about 3 times, Atkinson = mundane. Solberg is the only one with any real passion and given he either can't drive the Subaru anymore or has gone off the boil, he ain't around very much either.
5. There's no British drivers apart from Matthew Wilson and he's not very good.
All of the above mean that the terrestrial channels aren't interested so it goes to obscure satellite.
I still shake my head in dis-belief when that prick who presents it is interviewing a world class driver and thrusts his microphone forward with 'Dave' on it....
however it does not help that there is no succesful british driver, meeke seems to have given up, wilks has a slight opportunity with scooby next year, and adam gould is still very much in the junior championships but is our best hope. i have to disagree with your comments about wilson, his issue primarily is that he didn't spend any of his formative years thrashing mk2 escorts around dalby forest and beating local talent like steve bannister
, which seems to have pissed off what's left of british rallying fans as if it is some right of passage. people forget that his only experience is of the world scene, and he is capable of running inside the top 6 and consistently inside the top 10. i would wager that on a world event none of the other british talents including the higgins would get a better result, certainly not consistently.but mostly it is to do with the neutering of the sport by the fia such as sprint cloverleaf rallies, s
tty cars. i read that mark higgins thinks we should go back to rear drive n/a specials, and that this was supported in the last couple of autosports by various people. what a fking load of tosh, i wish the rallying fraternity would stop this misty eyed bks about mk2 escorts as proper rallying. from a marketing perspective 4wd is as intrinsic to wrc as wings are to f1, the key is to take the restrictors off the engines and give the cars 500hp, if you coupled this with an additional weight penalty for each newer car from 1997 onwards you could effectively have every wrc car compete on even terms. - that is a 1997 scoob has a weight limit of 1100kgs, and a 1998 scoob has a weight limit of 1120 kgs.
equally if you stick to rear drive how many manufacturer are going to get involved, bmw? - i doubt it, merc not so much, cadillac - hmm, lexus - about as much chance as i have of platting a turd. so 4wd it is, but make the cars more spectacular.
after that you have to sort the rallies out, some marathons a la rac '85 mixed in with 1 day sprints for the new events in.erm... indonesia and then everything in between so that you create more space in the calendar to have all the events on board in a season.
and that's just the beginning....
Edited by stockhatcher on Friday 8th August 15:58
Muzzer said:
I still shake my head in dis-belief when that prick who presents it is interviewing a world class driver and thrusts his microphone forward with 'Dave' on it....
After watching the 1000 Lakes coverage last weekend it occurred to me that, on balance, Dave's WRC coverage is probably about the best mainstream channel coverage of motorsport on TV. Informative, friendly, not too dumbed down, well produced. They started a bit shakily, with far too much Matthew Wilson interest, but have really improved.It's light years ahead of ITV's BTCC coverage in terms of the interviews etc.
stockhatcher said:
I have to disagree with your comments about wilson, his issue primarily is that he didn't spend any of his formative years thrashing mk2 escorts around dalby forest and beating local talent like steve bannister
Oh I don't doubt that he's probably the best of formative British talent at the moment. But, compared to the rest of the field (and Latvala in the same car) I don't rate him...As for 500bhp. Never gonna happen. Witness Group B. Granted, you're not talking about those weight levels but in today's nanny state they'll not allow a 500bhp rally car to tear around Corsica, etc.
And as for 'marathon' events, also never gonna happen. Too little spectators and too hard to cover on TV. A shame as the Safari et al were awesome. Seeing Colin and co getting out at the end of a special, face covered in dust and rocking T-Shirt and shorts was cool
I understand the reasons for shorter rallies over a smaller distance, but they need more manufacturers to bring up the new talent. I still think Loeb is the 'problem' - when Gronholm retired, if I was Malcolm Wilson I'd have been thinking "s
t, who has the pace of Loeb....no-one" and so it's proved, sadly.Ahonen said:
It's light years ahead of ITV's BTCC coverage in terms of the interviews etc.
Never mind ITV4's BTCC coverage - it's their coverage of the Tim Harvey Porsche Tim Harvey Carrerra Tim Harvey Cup Tim Harvey support race that is the worst of all... Tim Harvey.I hear Tim Harvey is one fo the commentary team and also racing in the PCC. I think I heard it mentioned once by the commentary team...
I think something they could do would be side by side onboard footage. Kinda like how they show with Virtual Spectator how they are losing time, but onboard.
Apart from that it's a mystifying thing.. WRC is faster than ever, still dangerous, still gets reasonable crowds at the events.. but people just seem to have fallen out of love with it, for no real obvious reason.
Apart from that it's a mystifying thing.. WRC is faster than ever, still dangerous, still gets reasonable crowds at the events.. but people just seem to have fallen out of love with it, for no real obvious reason.
zac510 said:
Apart from that it's a mystifying thing.. WRC is faster than ever, still dangerous, still gets reasonable crowds at the events.. but people just seem to have fallen out of love with it, for no real obvious reason.
in the uk i think it is a hangover from having no one to replace burns and mcrae. when they were at their pomp the sport was cool and popular, we have no replacement therefore no wider interest. f1's popularity in britain is partly because we always have a driver in the field who has won.Muzzer said:
stockhatcher said:
I have to disagree with your comments about wilson, his issue primarily is that he didn't spend any of his formative years thrashing mk2 escorts around dalby forest and beating local talent like steve bannister
Oh I don't doubt that he's probably the best of formative British talent at the moment. But, compared to the rest of the field (and Latvala in the same car) I don't rate him...As for 500bhp. Never gonna happen. Witness Group B. Granted, you're not talking about those weight levels but in today's nanny state they'll not allow a 500bhp rally car to tear around Corsica, etc.
And as for 'marathon' events, also never gonna happen. Too little spectators and too hard to cover on TV. A shame as the Safari et al were awesome. Seeing Colin and co getting out at the end of a special, face covered in dust and rocking T-Shirt and shorts was cool
I understand the reasons for shorter rallies over a smaller distance, but they need more manufacturers to bring up the new talent. I still think Loeb is the 'problem' - when Gronholm retired, if I was Malcolm Wilson I'd have been thinking "s
t, who has the pace of Loeb....no-one" and so it's proved, sadly.if you look at the old broadcasts on youtube you can see that they were 15mins long... it was like foreplay, 15 mins of excitment and then it stops leaving you begging for some more. autosport for me has made its covering of f1 so boring, its all over analysis, fact and figures and not just the romantic retelling of a sporting event. less is more.
Edited by stockhatcher on Friday 8th August 17:14
I've done loads of club rallying over the years, both driving and co-driving. My rallying buddies and I will happily spend a Saturday night stood in the p*ssing rain in a lane somewhere in the middle of Wales watching a road rally, but NONE of us watch the WRC. I love clubman rallying, absolutely adore everything about it, but I don't have any interest at all in the WRC.
I think it's become too sanitised. The cars aren't interesting, the events aren't interesting, and sadly neither are the crews. The coverage is awful; I couldn't really give a damn who presents it or how it's presented, I just want to see some decent footage of the best drivers in the world driving on the limit. But you never see that, you just get arty shots of cars going over jumps or showering stones into a hedge. The high-speed stuff where the commitment really shows is what interests me, but I can guarantee that in an hour's coverage there isn't any of that.
Oh, I don't think Matthew Wilson's a world class driver. If Mark Higgins was given the same opportunities he'd be consistently faster (as he was when they were in the same car in the BRC a few seasons ago).
I think it's become too sanitised. The cars aren't interesting, the events aren't interesting, and sadly neither are the crews. The coverage is awful; I couldn't really give a damn who presents it or how it's presented, I just want to see some decent footage of the best drivers in the world driving on the limit. But you never see that, you just get arty shots of cars going over jumps or showering stones into a hedge. The high-speed stuff where the commitment really shows is what interests me, but I can guarantee that in an hour's coverage there isn't any of that.
Oh, I don't think Matthew Wilson's a world class driver. If Mark Higgins was given the same opportunities he'd be consistently faster (as he was when they were in the same car in the BRC a few seasons ago).
RT106 said:
Oh, I don't think Matthew Wilson's a world class driver. If Mark Higgins was given the same opportunities he'd be consistently faster (as he was when they were in the same car in the BRC a few seasons ago).
the measure of a drivers ability is the speed with which they get on the pace, followed by the speed with which they can maintain that pace consistently enough to win a rally/race. that is there are those drivers who can never get on the pace, those that take ages, and those that can do it straight away (but probably crash alot), think piquet junior, kovalainen and hamilton.
There are a whole load of reasons, as have been stated.
It's a vicious circle really, manufacturers don't what to enter due to low coverage, and low coverage is due to lack of manufacturers and competition.
Maybe the S2000+ spec will improve things, but I'm not betting on it.
Also I believe that WRC is going to have a promoter in the near future.
What do non-rallyblood PHers think - why don't you follow it and what would you like to see?
It's clear from the response to rally stories on PH that most of us are track people.
It's a vicious circle really, manufacturers don't what to enter due to low coverage, and low coverage is due to lack of manufacturers and competition.
Maybe the S2000+ spec will improve things, but I'm not betting on it.
Also I believe that WRC is going to have a promoter in the near future.
What do non-rallyblood PHers think - why don't you follow it and what would you like to see?
It's clear from the response to rally stories on PH that most of us are track people.
stockhatcher said:
but mostly it is to do with the neutering of the sport by the fia such as sprint cloverleaf rallies, stty cars. i read that mark higgins thinks we should go back to rear drive n/a specials, and that this was supported in the last couple of autosports by various people. what a fking load of tosh, i wish the rallying fraternity would stop this misty eyed bks about mk2 escorts as proper rallying.
It's far from a ftty cars. i read that mark higgins thinks we should go back to rear drive n/a specials, and that this was supported in the last couple of autosports by various people. what a fking load of tosh, i wish the rallying fraternity would stop this misty eyed bks about mk2 escorts as proper rallying. king load of tosh.....Higgins is right, but doesn't it have to be rwd, let the manufacturers decide about rwd or fwd as they wish......as long as they bin bloody 4wd......
You clearly don't know what 'proper' rallying is, and it's got feck all to do with MK2 Escorts.
stockhatcher said:
from a marketing perspective 4wd is as intrinsic to wrc as wings are to f1
Now that is a load of tosh.stockhatcher said:
equally if you stick to rear drive how many manufacturer are going to get involved?
So, why should that be different to now.....err, neither Ford or Citroen (66% of the competing makers) have a 'performance' 4wd road car that they sell, do they...??
And the WRC cars are fabricated specials, so it doesn't really matter whether a new2wd WRC car is transverse fwd, longitudinal rwd or whatever.
Real rallying is not about spectators or the spectacle, the FIA could do more to promote Rallycross for that, rallying is about navigation, team work and an element of endurance, NOT a few hours blat round and round a few super special stages in silly high tech specials......that's what has killed the sport.
If you rolled out 2wd cars in Gp A I would look at them and think 'they're slow' (I have been to two WRC events in last 12 months so I'm not judging jsut by the TV). Even GpN looks a bit slow further down the field. Maybe we would adjust but initially they would appear slow and you'd risk losing even more interest. This contradicts what people loved about the Group B era.
Personally I agree with most of whats said but i think the main reason is just a lack of promotion by the championship organisers themselves. Remember a few years back when the WRc was really gaining in popularity and was looking like it might start rivalling formula 1 in some countries then various internal politics seemed to knock it back a bit.
Don't think it will ever go back to rwd either as the manufacturers who are always going to be involved in the wrc are generally mainstream manufacturers who don;'t build rwd cars.
As for mark higgins I think he could show decent pace on the world stage if somebody gave him a good cars and the same testing opportunities as most of the other drivers get.
Much prefer the WRC drivers for personality as well, most of the F1 lot seem a bit stuck up to me whereas at least all the wrc seem a bit more down to earth and nice friendly blokes in the main and i can't believe sombody said Mikko hasn't got character, you ever seen him in person?
Don't think it will ever go back to rwd either as the manufacturers who are always going to be involved in the wrc are generally mainstream manufacturers who don;'t build rwd cars.
As for mark higgins I think he could show decent pace on the world stage if somebody gave him a good cars and the same testing opportunities as most of the other drivers get.
Much prefer the WRC drivers for personality as well, most of the F1 lot seem a bit stuck up to me whereas at least all the wrc seem a bit more down to earth and nice friendly blokes in the main and i can't believe sombody said Mikko hasn't got character, you ever seen him in person?
Pains me to say it as a life long fan of WRC, but it's dross these days.
It needs to reinvent itself really, as it's all but forgotten about over here. Trouble is whilst seeing the cars getting hammered around dirt tracks still holds appeal, the drivers are dull as ditchwater, the FIA are one step away from imposing 20mph speed limits they've neutered it that much, and the coverage went to the dogs years ago.
To me it smacks of a motorsport which desperately needs a massive investment making to draw back the public interest, both in terms of publicity and financially. Get it back on prime time weekend telly, get some drivers that don't seem like they've had labotomies, stop loeb going past second gear, and try and get some more manufacturers involved. Easier said than done I know. Essentially it needs to go back to it's roots I suppose.
The cars as mentioned are boring, the drivers are largely boring, the driving itself is still ace but nowhere near dangerous enough. Hold on chaps, I've got an idea...
let's reinvent group B
It needs to reinvent itself really, as it's all but forgotten about over here. Trouble is whilst seeing the cars getting hammered around dirt tracks still holds appeal, the drivers are dull as ditchwater, the FIA are one step away from imposing 20mph speed limits they've neutered it that much, and the coverage went to the dogs years ago.
To me it smacks of a motorsport which desperately needs a massive investment making to draw back the public interest, both in terms of publicity and financially. Get it back on prime time weekend telly, get some drivers that don't seem like they've had labotomies, stop loeb going past second gear, and try and get some more manufacturers involved. Easier said than done I know. Essentially it needs to go back to it's roots I suppose.
The cars as mentioned are boring, the drivers are largely boring, the driving itself is still ace but nowhere near dangerous enough. Hold on chaps, I've got an idea...
let's reinvent group B
Edited by Stu R on Friday 8th August 23:12
Difficult one. For me, I think it's the fact that the cars now have no relation to the road cars. Hard to see what they could change though; you'd either have a yawny fwd fest, or the likes of mitsubishi would rule all like they do in the production car class. Seems to me that homologation was good for the sport, but I can understand why they changed the rules.
I don't see why people say the drivers are dull though - check out the grin on Miko after the 3 day battle with Loeb in Finland finished with 9 seconds in it. Mundane? What do you expect him to do, a tap routine?
I do think that the coverage could be improved a lot though, by showing more of the action for a start.
I don't see why people say the drivers are dull though - check out the grin on Miko after the 3 day battle with Loeb in Finland finished with 9 seconds in it. Mundane? What do you expect him to do, a tap routine?
I do think that the coverage could be improved a lot though, by showing more of the action for a start.
As others have said, my personal opinion on the decline in the popularity of rallying is due to the lack of link between the cars and their road-going counterparts.
I thought the group A days were fantastic, there were a mulititude of manufacturers, some amazing drivers and you could actually go out and buy the cars that were being thrashed around the stages! Just think of the cars we would never have seen without Group A; Lancia Delta Integrale, Sierra Cosworth, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Toyota Celica GT4, Subaru Impreza WRX.
As far as I'm concerned, the introduction of the WRC regulations did more harm than good. People simply don't watch rallying and think "wow I'd love a Citroen C4 VTS", it just doesn't happen and if it's not helping to sell cars then manufacturers simply won't invest.
I can understand the argument that Group A was expensive for manufacturers as they had to produce road going versions, but at the same time at least they were getting something back by selling them and the brand promotion never did anyone any harm. From what I can tell, competing in the WRC now isn't exactly pocket money anyway!
I think far more people would be interested in the sport if the cars that were competing were avilable in the showroom too, it just helps to create so much more interest and brand loyalty if you're watching on on tv what you have sat on your drive.
I thought the group A days were fantastic, there were a mulititude of manufacturers, some amazing drivers and you could actually go out and buy the cars that were being thrashed around the stages! Just think of the cars we would never have seen without Group A; Lancia Delta Integrale, Sierra Cosworth, Escort Cosworth, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo, Toyota Celica GT4, Subaru Impreza WRX.
As far as I'm concerned, the introduction of the WRC regulations did more harm than good. People simply don't watch rallying and think "wow I'd love a Citroen C4 VTS", it just doesn't happen and if it's not helping to sell cars then manufacturers simply won't invest.
I can understand the argument that Group A was expensive for manufacturers as they had to produce road going versions, but at the same time at least they were getting something back by selling them and the brand promotion never did anyone any harm. From what I can tell, competing in the WRC now isn't exactly pocket money anyway!
I think far more people would be interested in the sport if the cars that were competing were avilable in the showroom too, it just helps to create so much more interest and brand loyalty if you're watching on on tv what you have sat on your drive.
williamp said:
So what you're all saying really is rallying stopped being great when Beanie hats replaced Bobble hats, and Nylon jackets became uncool.
More or less...Rallying stopped being rallying when Henri and Sergio died, and the powers that be resorted to knee-jerk rule changes by dropping Group B (no bad thing IMHO) but more seriously creating this girlie office hours sprint style rallying format. It's the latter that has really gradually resulted in the demise of true rallying.
Take the RAC for example, 25 years ago, it was an 75-80 odd stage, 3000 mile 5 day event around half of the UK.....
Now, it's a 17-18 stage long 2.5 day sprint around a few repeated runs through the a few Welsh forests....
It's become a frigging joke.....
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